Does Jesus become ruler over the created world (The God of this world)

101G · Apr 28, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
Not all trinitarians are the same. There is a tendency among unitarians to dismiss them as non brothers, and I advise against that.

THIS IS CORREST, 2 Thessalonians 3:13 "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing."
2 Thessalonians 3:14 "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed."
2 Thessalonians 3:15 "Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

I might not be a trinitarian, or a unitarian, or a Oneness as the UPC teaches. but we all need each other. none of us know everything bout God. but if we come together, and put aside our own beliefs, and differences, and go after God in Spirit and TRUTH, then we all will benift.

thanks Brickjectivity,

PICJAG,
101g

InChrist · Apr 28, 2021

Soapy said:
The question was set to Ben D, who, as you can see, refrained from answering.

As well as the OP, I’m also asking how some believers say that Jesus created everything but yet his title is not ‘Father’.

There are many things Jesus was and was not that he said and did not say about himself. It’s left to us to discuss and conclude on such matters according to the scriptures that we both read from - consensus of evidence.

The Son, Jesus, is called Father...Everlasting Father...

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

101G · Apr 28, 2021

InChrist said:
The Son, Jesus, is called Father...Everlasting Father...

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

CORRECT. 100%.

PICJAG,
101G.

Brickjectivity · Apr 28, 2021

101G said:
THIS IS CORREST, 2 Thessalonians 3:13 "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing."
2 Thessalonians 3:14 "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed."
2 Thessalonians 3:15 "Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

I might not be a trinitarian, or a unitarian, or a Oneness as the UPC teaches. but we all need each other. none of us know everything bout God. but if we come together, and put aside our own beliefs, and differences, and go after God in Spirit and TRUTH, then we all will benift.

thanks Brickjectivity,

PICJAG,
101g

I'm appreciative of your reply but am unsure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing. Are you suggesting that unitarians must keep away from trinitarians and chide them over this disagreement? That is the furthest thing from my mind. To me 2 Thessalonians 3 that you quote from is talking about people who are disruptive and idle, not people who merely disagree about abstract concepts. You've quoted from 14 that says "Does not obey our word by this epistle" but have left out the verse 6 explaining what the exclusion is about. Fruit not words is what I'm talking about.

101G · Apr 28, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
I'm appreciative of your reply but am unsure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing. Are you suggesting that unitarians must keep away from trinitarians and chide them over this disagreement? That is the furthest thing from my mind. To me 2 Thessalonians 3 that you quote from is talking about people who are disruptive and idle, not people who merely disagree about abstract concepts. You've quoted from 14 that says "Does not obey our word by this epistle" but have left out the verse 6 explaining what the exclusion is about. Fruit not words is what I'm talking about.

first thanks for the reply, second, you must have missed my meaning. I agree with the scriptures, and I said, "but we all need each other. none of us know everything bout God."
no, I was not suggesting that anyone stay away from anyone, again, "but if we come together, and put aside our own beliefs, and differences, and go after God in Spirit and TRUTH, then we all will benift."

as the apostle said by the Holy Ghost, 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

but if some are only to divide, Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
Romans 16:18 "For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

that I'll let you decide.

now I suggest we all come together and openly "discuss" the Word of God in Spirit and in TRUTH.

PICJAG,
101G

Windwalker · Apr 28, 2021

Soapy said:
Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created the world (earth) and everything in it.

Scripture claims this. John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The Trinity just draws from this verse, and others. They didn't just make up that claim. John made that claim.

Soapy said:
Yet the scriptures says that it was Yahweh who created it and all within it - in fact, Yahweh says that his people should worship Him, and Him, alone - one God (as opposed to pagan worship which is worship of many Gods).

Then you should ask yourself why John said all of creation was done through the Logos, which is identified as Jesus in verse 14. Why did John claim that? What was he trying to teach us?

Soapy said:
But if Jesus created everything then why is he not called ‘Father’ (which means: ‘He that brings into being; he that brings forth; he that gives life; the head) and yet nowhere in scriptures does it say that Jesus is the ruler of the world; the Father.

These are good questions which scholars reading the gospel of John deal with. Why does Jesus say, "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father", or why he says, "I and the Father are One", for instance. This is where various theologies about Jesus based upon scripture come to bear, based upon such statements.

Soapy said:
So, it is interesting that scriptures says that, at the end of time, Jesus BECOMES the Eternal Father of those whom he gives eternal life to after the judgements.

What verse are you thinking of that says Jesus becomes the Father? I can't think of what you are referring to.

Soapy said:
But if we are to believe the trinity view that Jesus is one part of a tri-part ‘GOD’ - and GOD is Spirit and rules a GREATER infinite kingdom (Heaven) than the limited physical kingdom of earth - how is it that one part of the tri-part co-equal, co-powerful, co-everything GOD becomes ruler (God) over its/his own creation without the other two parts - and indeed become a LESSER ruler than his present rulership as God of all things?

A better way to try to imagine the Trinity, is not with a math formula. There is only one God, which manifests in the ways as described in scripture.

101G · Apr 28, 2021

Windwalker said:
Scripture claims this. John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
The Trinity just draws from this verse, and others. They didn't just make up that claim. John made that claim.

first thanks for the reply, not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. I know that you're using a different version from the (kjv), but in John 1:3 he, the Lord Jesus did not go through anyone or anyone through him to MAKE ALL THINGS. understand Isaiah 44:24 clearly states he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF", and the NASB 1995 makes it perfectly clear by saying he was "ALL ALONE". which closes the door on any going through anyone else.

so Isaiah 44:24 corrects any translation in John 1:3 that says "Through him all things were made". no, BY HIMSELF was all things made. so the (kjv) is correct in that respect.

I hope that helped,

PICJAG,
101G,

King Phenomenon · Apr 28, 2021

ben d said:
Jesus does not create Armageddon, rather is the catalyst.

God is the creator.

So u think Jesus is alive or a ‘chosen one’ on earth today and when they die the world ends and begins again?

Brickjectivity · Apr 28, 2021

101G said:
now I suggest we all come together and openly "discuss" the Word of God in Spirit and in TRUTH.

Maybe, but maybe it is better not to discuss anything. Didn't this open the doors for new religions to spring up in the mid 19th century? Half of the sincere bible students began to discuss, and then someone very clever would get them all alarmed and lead them into separate camps.

101G · Apr 28, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
Maybe, but maybe it is better not to discuss anything. Didn't this open the doors for new religions to spring up in the mid 19th century? Half of the sincere bible students began to discuss, and then someone very clever would get them all alarmed and lead them into separate camps.

do not one learn from mistakes?

what if we got the TRUTH "WRONG?"... do we blame our teachers? NO, it is our responsibility to allow God to teach us and Guide us in all truths. for LIGHT cast out darkness. the scriptures by the WISDOM of God gives us Knowlrdge and UNDERSTANDING, Proverbs 2:6 "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding."

now the bible interpret it's self. so let the scriptures stand on the TRUE foundation of God. also, one cannot make a horse drink, but one can lead the horse to the water, so our job is to lead one to the water, then it's between them and God, if they drank..... or not. we have nothing to do with that.

so I still suggest that we discuss the scriptures, and let God GUIDE us..... not to argue, but to discuss/reason, together.... without offense.

PICJAG,
101G.

1213 · Apr 28, 2021

Soapy said:
Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created the world (earth) and everything in it.

Actually, Bible tells things were created through Jesus, which I understand means God used Jesus in the creation. Jesus himself is according to the Bible image of God.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:14-16

Soapy said:
Jesus BECOMES the Eternal Father ...

Do you have some scripture to support that?

Soapy said:
But if we are to believe the trinity view that Jesus is one part of a tri-part ‘GOD’ - and GOD is Spirit and rules a GREATER infinite kingdom (Heaven) than the limited physical kingdom of earth - how is it that one part of the tri-part co-equal, co-powerful, co-everything GOD becomes ruler (God) over its/his own creation without the other two parts - and indeed become a LESSER ruler than his present rulership as God of all things?

I think it would be best to remain in what is said in the Bible. According to it:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

cataway · Apr 28, 2021

InChrist said:
The Son, Jesus, is called Father...Everlasting Father...

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

not all-mighty god ?

firedragon · Apr 28, 2021

Soapy said:
Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created the world (earth) and everything in it. Yet the scriptures says that it was Yahweh who created it and all within it - in fact, Yahweh says that his people should worship Him, and Him, alone - one God (as opposed to pagan worship which is worship of many Gods).

Could you please explain how the trinity teaches that and where?

Psalm23 · Apr 28, 2021

Soapy said:
Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created the world (earth) and everything in it. Yet the scriptures says that it was Yahweh who created it and all within it - in fact, Yahweh says that his people should worship Him, and Him, alone - one God (as opposed to pagan worship which is worship of many Gods).

But if Jesus created everything then why is he not called ‘Father’ (which means: ‘He that brings into being; he that brings forth; he that gives life; the head) and yet nowhere in scriptures does it say that Jesus is the ruler of the world; the Father.

So, it is interesting that scriptures says that, at the end of time, Jesus BECOMES the Eternal Father of those whom he gives eternal life to after the judgements.

But if we are to believe the trinity view that Jesus is one part of a tri-part ‘GOD’ - and GOD is Spirit and rules a GREATER infinite kingdom (Heaven) than the limited physical kingdom of earth - how is it that one part of the tri-part co-equal, co-powerful, co-everything GOD becomes ruler (God) over its/his own creation without the other two parts - and indeed become a LESSER ruler than his present rulership as God of all things?

Isaiah 9:6 ( KJV) says this :

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.“

In John 10:30 Jesus says “ I and the Father are one.”

Soapy · Apr 28, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
I believe that Christ, the Word of God, is spoken of in Colossians 1:16. 'All things were created by him, and for him.'

Philippians 2:11. 'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;'

So your answer is ‘I don’t know - I don’t have any evidence’.... excellent. Thank you.

Soapy · Apr 28, 2021

Psalm23 said:
Isaiah 9:6 ( KJV) says this :

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.“

In John 10:30 Jesus says “ I and the Father are one.”

I don’t know what you are saying. I’m not sure what you are presenting ....

Jesus saying that he and the Father are one simply means they are of one accord. Are you trying to prove a trinity by TWO PERSONS, a human and a Deity?

Soapy · Apr 28, 2021

firedragon said:
Could you please explain how the trinity teaches that and where?

Ha ha ha.... how can you ask me to explain trinity when I am not a trinity believer..... is this some kind of trick question?????

Ask a trinity believed to explain their belief ..... bet they cannot!!!

firedragon · Apr 28, 2021

Soapy said:
Ha ha ha.... how can you ask me to explain trinity when I am not a trinity believer..... is this some kind of trick question?????

Ask a trinity believed to explain their belief ..... bet they cannot!!!

I didnt.

Ben Dhyan · Apr 28, 2021

Power Stone said:
So u think Jesus is alive or a ‘chosen one’ on earth today and when they die the world ends and begins again?

Revelation says that Jesus organizes the world's nuclear powers to war against each other, this war is called Armageddon. Those peoples who survive it will be governed by Jesus in a very strict manner, presumably according to highly religious moral codes.

Soapy · Apr 28, 2021

cataway said:
at this time the god of this world is satan
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

You are right by the simple quote from scriptures.

And for sure, Jesus Christ is the IMAGE OF OUR GOD.

Just for the record, Adam was created ‘IMAGE OF OUR GOD’. It would be interesting to see the responses from Trinitarians concerning this revelation (to them) as it is patently obvious that an IMAGE cannot be THE OBJECT itself from which the image is made.

In fact, the true image can only mimic what the object does. The power of an image is not from its own SOURCE. Hence, we term it, ‘Son’.

A true ‘Son’ does whatever it sees its Father do... it does exactly what the father directs if you do - it does the works of the Father. A true Son is effectively a reflection of its Father - an image of its Father.

“I only says that God is my Father. If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me”
“All who follow the Spirit [of God] are CHILDREN of God”

Does Jesus become ruler over the created world (The God of this world)

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