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Scriptural Wisdom

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
As most on this forum know, I am an atheist, and as such, I hold that the Bible is written by humans. I hold that it is wrong in many, many ways, both scientifically and historically -- but also morally and ethically -- and over the years I've pointed many of these out. So very often, when somebody says, "I've found a passage that expresses a very real truth," I've only need to flip through a few pages to find another passage that contradicts it completely, which makes it pretty tough for the atheist to take seriously at all.

I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).

My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"

Ecclesiates 3:18-22

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
As most on this forum know, I am an atheist, and as such, I hold that the Bible is written by humans. I hold that it is wrong in many, many ways, both scientifically and historically -- but also morally and ethically -- and over the years I've pointed many of these out. So very often, when somebody says, "I've found a passage that expresses a very real truth," I've only need to flip through a few pages to find another passage that contradicts it completely, which makes it pretty tough for the atheist to take seriously at all.

I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).

My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"

Ecclesiates 3:18-22

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

I think the guy was just complaining on why god left him hanging:


he words of David’s son, Qoheleth, king in Jerusalem:* a

2
Vanity of vanities,* says Qoheleth,

vanity of vanities! All things are vanity!

What profit have we from all the toil

which we toil at under the sun?* c

4
One generation departs and another generation comes,

but the world forever stays.

5
The sun rises and the sun sets;

then it presses on to the place where it rises.

6
Shifting south, then north,

back and forth shifts the wind, constantly shifting its course.

7
All rivers flow to the sea,

yet never does the sea become full.

To the place where they flow,

the rivers continue to flow
-
Getting stuff off his chest asking god why did he test him so or something or other. I actually like that chapter though a bit depressing in the beginning.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).
My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"
Ecclesiates 3:18-22
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

Yes, Ecclesiastes is accurate ( false teachers are the one's not accurate ).
I find Scripture says there is nothing humans have as the result of their birth that gives them superiority over animals when they die ( life cycle is the same for people and animals ) - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
ALL go to dust just as Adam returned to dust - Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 9:10,5
But because of Jesus, 'humans' who follow Jesus can have a resurrection back to live life again - Rev. 1:18.
People might Not know or observe where one's 'spirit' goes but God does - Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I'm not a Christian but I found your question interesting so looked at the entire chapter. This is how I read it and at the end I don't understand the basis of your question based on how the chapter struck me.

Verses 1-8 express the bipolar nature of existence: born/die, weep/laugh,gain/lose, love/hate.

9-13 are an exhortation to joy, doing good and enjoy the products of work as the gift of God.

14-17 to me are statements that God's work is eternal and there is judgement based on which side of the bipolar nature of life they inhabit (righteous/wicked).

18-22 But in the end, people should rejoice in their own works based on fate because what happens afterwards is not known..
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I think the guy was just complaining on why god left him hanging:


he words of David’s son, Qoheleth, king in Jerusalem:* a

2
Vanity of vanities,* says Qoheleth,

vanity of vanities! All things are vanity!

What profit have we from all the toil

which we toil at under the sun?* c

4
One generation departs and another generation comes,

but the world forever stays.

5
The sun rises and the sun sets;

then it presses on to the place where it rises.

6
Shifting south, then north,

back and forth shifts the wind, constantly shifting its course.

7
All rivers flow to the sea,

yet never does the sea become full.

To the place where they flow,

the rivers continue to flow
-
Getting stuff off his chest asking god why did he test him so or something or other. I actually like that chapter though a bit depressing in the beginning.
That passage reminds me of a text I read this morning,

(Psalm 39:5-7) 5 Indeed, you have made my days just a few; And my life span is as nothing before you. Surely every man, though he seems secure, is nothing but a mere breath. (Selah) 6 Surely every man walks about like a shadow. He rushes around for nothing. He piles up wealth, not knowing who will enjoy it. 7 What, then, can I hope for, O Jehovah? You are my only hope.

That is so true.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I'm not a Christian but I found your question interesting so looked at the entire chapter. This is how I read it and at the end I don't understand the basis of your question based on how the chapter struck me.

Verses 1-8 express the bipolar nature of existence: born/die, weep/laugh,gain/lose, love/hate.

9-13 are an exhortation to joy, doing good and enjoy the products of work as the gift of God.

14-17 to me are statements that God's work is eternal and there is judgement based on which side of the bipolar nature of life they inhabit (righteous/wicked).

18-22 But in the end, people should rejoice in their own works based on fate because what happens afterwards is not known..
Reading the entire book of Ecclesiastes, I think it can be boiled down to something like this:

Qoheleth, as king, has done it all -- enjoyed all experiences -- but in the end finds that nothing is for certain. Except death, which is the great leveler of us all. So the only real good is to enjoy life in the present. Yes, he believes in God, and is certain that enjoyment is possible because it is God's gift. BUT -- we live in time, and God does not, and for us, everything is ordered in time. Our world is full of injustice, and for sure God will judge that. But God will only judge that here, so we can enjoy, but not be greedy

Nobody knows what is good for us all, and we are really incapable of righteousness and wisdom, so the author considers the limits of human power. We all face death, and death is better than life (for reasons he does not go into), but we should enjoy life when we can. Also, because the world is full of risk, he gives advice on living with risk of all kinds.

In the end, we are mortal and should take pleasure as we can, for the time may be when none of us can. In fact, his words end with imagery of nature languishing and humanity marching to the grave.

In particular consider this line from near the end of Chapter 12: "and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Can you see the deep, deep ambiguity here? "The spirit returns..." but where was (or what was) this spirit before it was given? None of us has any memory of a "life before we were born," and if that is the case, why should we expect any knowledge of whatever happens after we die?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
As most on this forum know, I am an atheist, and as such, I hold that the Bible is written by humans. I hold that it is wrong in many, many ways, both scientifically and historically -- but also morally and ethically -- and over the years I've pointed many of these out. So very often, when somebody says, "I've found a passage that expresses a very real truth," I've only need to flip through a few pages to find another passage that contradicts it completely, which makes it pretty tough for the atheist to take seriously at all.

I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).

My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"

Ecclesiates 3:18-22

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?
As Jehovah’s Witnesses, my colleagues & I use this all the time!

Because the Bible says, “the dead know nothing.” Ecclesiastes 9 5. (Just like dead animals.) And verse 10 implies that everyone goes to hell, which is just the grave!
What you’ve been taught, is from apostate mainstream christianity, heavily influenced by pagan, Platonic ideas. If I had not studied Scripture w/ JW’s, I might be an atheist too, idk....

it’s not for nothing that Revelation 12:9 informs us the Devil is “misleading the entire inhabited earth”!
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
As most on this forum know, I am an atheist, and as such, I hold that the Bible is written by humans. I hold that it is wrong in many, many ways, both scientifically and historically -- but also morally and ethically -- and over the years I've pointed many of these out. So very often, when somebody says, "I've found a passage that expresses a very real truth," I've only need to flip through a few pages to find another passage that contradicts it completely, which makes it pretty tough for the atheist to take seriously at all.

I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).

My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"

Ecclesiates 3:18-22

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?
Ecclesiates is my favorite, esp. this one. I hardly read Bible verses, and usually only Ecclesiates (once in 5 years or so) and this one is easiest to digest, and similar to what my Master teaches; totally not conflicting with other teachings for me.

People make such a big deal of worldly life, and this verse puts it in place. Common sense. Brings you down to earth.

Don't worry about the future, as future is uncertain, don't get mad about what happened in the past, the past is gone. Best 'Be' in the future AND be happy, if you're smart, although happiness comes and goes, so no need to make to big a deal out of it.
 

Bree

Active Member
As most on this forum know, I am an atheist, and as such, I hold that the Bible is written by humans. I hold that it is wrong in many, many ways, both scientifically and historically -- but also morally and ethically -- and over the years I've pointed many of these out. So very often, when somebody says, "I've found a passage that expresses a very real truth," I've only need to flip through a few pages to find another passage that contradicts it completely, which makes it pretty tough for the atheist to take seriously at all.

I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).

My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"

Ecclesiates 3:18-22

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?


not at all. In fact, the christian message is boltsered by this very real reality. Without God in our lives, we are nothing.

If we want a meaningful life we can only have it through a good relationship with God. Without him we are dust. We all recognise this and that is why Christianity promotes following the life of Christ Jesus who did have a good relationship with Jehovah God. And thru that relationship, he has everlasting life which is what all those who seek God can have. We don't have to return to the dust as the animals do...we can live forever but it must be on Gods terms.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I have also always liked Ecclesiastes. And Lucretius.


I like Ecclesiastes. Not familiar with Lucretius, will give it a look, thanks for the heads up.

I love dipping into the Psalms.
23, of course, the one everybody knows. "He leadeth me beside the still waters." Can I go there please?

And 22; "My God, my God, why hast though forsaken me?"
Who hasn't shaken a fist at the heavens and cried out in despair like that?

Psalm 18 though. What poetic grandeur, what drama, what passionate vision...
"And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind." Wtf?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Evangelicalhumanist...it looks as if your thread has attracted just about all the JW's here at RF....
We love the book of Ecclesiastes because of the wisdom that it contains...a wisdom bestowed on King Solomon who was renown for his God-given wisdom.

This is one of our favorite scriptures because it expresses what the rest of the Bible teaches...at present we have no superiority over animals at death....we all breathe the same air and all die the same death when breathing stops.

The same microbes eat away at our flesh to dispose of our remains.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 are also revealing about the condition of the dead....they "know nothing"....can't work, plan or do a dashed thing....:p
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
As most on this forum know, I am an atheist, and as such, I hold that the Bible is written by humans. I hold that it is wrong in many, many ways, both scientifically and historically -- but also morally and ethically -- and over the years I've pointed many of these out. So very often, when somebody says, "I've found a passage that expresses a very real truth," I've only need to flip through a few pages to find another passage that contradicts it completely, which makes it pretty tough for the atheist to take seriously at all.

I have also, by the way, said that I always found that the book of Eccliastes did indeed contain some wisdom. And here's a passage that speaks directly to me -- the atheist -- and at the very same time seems to point to the wisdom of Lucretius's great poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).

My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"

Ecclesiates 3:18-22

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

If Ecclesiastes is seen as Solomon's attempts to find meaning in life just from what he sees around him and experiences, with faith also thrown in at times and with faith as the conclusion at the end, then that passage can be understood in context.
It is the same with other parts of the Bible in which God might look like an evil entity, but if understood properly and in context that accessment can be seen to be wrong.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
My question to Christians is this: do you have to dismiss this passage from the Bible altogether in order to maintain that the Bible is an accurate reflection of "the Christian Message?"
No, I'm not sure why you would think it contradicts the Christian message.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
As Jehovah’s Witnesses, my colleagues & I use this all the time!

Because the Bible says, “the dead know nothing.” Ecclesiastes 9 5. (Just like dead animals.) And verse 10 implies that everyone goes to hell, which is just the grave!
What you’ve been taught, is from apostate mainstream christianity, heavily influenced by pagan, Platonic ideas. If I had not studied Scripture w/ JW’s, I might be an atheist too, idk....

it’s not for nothing that Revelation 12:9 informs us the Devil is “misleading the entire inhabited earth”!

Sheol is not the grave. People go to sheol to await the resurrection. It is clear in scripture that we do not go to non existence when we die physically. Show me a passage where it tells us that. Eccles 9:5 is not a passage that tells us that.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Sheol is not the grave. People go to sheol to await the resurrection. It is clear in scripture that we do not go to non existence when we die physically. Show me a passage where it tells us that. Eccles 9:5 is not a passage that tells us that.
Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Resurrection means “stand back to life”! A dead person can’t come “back“ to life, if they’re already alive.

Yes, Sheol is the Grave / Hell, and everyone goes there at death.... Ecclesiastes 9:10
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Resurrection means “stand back to life”! A dead person can’t come “back“ to life, if they’re already alive.

Yes, Sheol is the Grave / Hell, and everyone goes there at death.... Ecclesiastes 9:10

Gen 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
That does not tell the whole story. Adam was made from dust but also has a spirit, the spirit of life. The dust part returns back to dust and the spirit part is given into the care of God (as Jesus said, "Into you hands I commit my spirit) who puts it in a safe place awaiting the resurrection. That place is Sheol/Hades.

Eccles 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
So there is a realm of the dead where the dead go and do not work nor plan anything and have not knowledge of what is going on on the earth.
Taking all of Eccles as literal truth from God is a mistake, because it is Solomon looking around with his eyes and great wisdom and trying to access life and death and what it all means logically and from what he can see. Faith is there as a conclusion as the reasonable way to live.
Show me how Eccles 9:10 shows there is no existence after death. Parts of scripture say we sleep. None of scripture say we do not exist. Jesus even said that when His body dies His soul does not.(Matt 10:28)

If Resurrection means "stand back to life" it means that the person who dies, the human, rises up again as a human. Biological death is the separation of the spirit from the body, but the spirit still exists and does not die when the body dies. If the person goes to the 2nd death, that would be the death of the spirit.
Jesus rose up again as a man and He raised up His body again.

The grave and sheol/hades are separate things in scripture even though it can be hard to tell what is being spoken of at times. The Greek word hades was chosen for a reason, it represented a similar thing to what the Christians believed about a place of the dead.
Isa 14:10-20 shows the realm of the dead as a place where spirits are and the King of Babylon goes there but is cast out of his grave (verse 19). "Grave" and "sheol" are treated differently in scripture.
Samuel was disturbed from his rest when God brought him back to prophesy to Saul once again in the story of the witch of Endor and said that Saul and his sons would be in the same place on the next day. It is no wonder the the Watch Tower denies that is really Samuel even though the scripture clearly tells us that it was Samuel.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
No, I'm not sure why you would think it contradicts the Christian message.
Reading the words, and comparing them to the words said to be by and about Jesus, I guess, since they stand in very stark contradiction to one another. I suppose if you make an effort not to remember the words of one, while reading the other, it is possible to not notice and ignore this.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Reading the words, and comparing them to the words said to be by and about Jesus, I guess, since they stand in very stark contradiction to one another. I suppose if you make an effort not to remember the words of one, while reading the other, it is possible to not notice and ignore this.
There is no contradiction.
 
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