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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
It is still there. When you quote out of context. When you ad bolding, that is editing.
You throw accusations about, SZ, but seem completely unable to show any evidence whatsoever. Why should we believe you? You say "It's still there". I say "Where"?
No, you made attacks. I will explain once you show that I made a "false assumption". A wise person would have asked questions first before making claims that they cannot support.
You made a false assumption that “most Christians……….” (fill in the blank with any words of your choice). This is a false assumption because nobody (even you, SZ) knows the thoughts of most Christians.
This is so obvious that it should not need to be said.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Because you were rude from the start and have run away from your burden of proof.
LOL! You are fooling no one, SZ. You have no idea what the verse means, do you? And if you really believe that you can prove that ‘MOST Christians’ do not understand the meaning of a verse… well, I suggest you do some work on the concept of proof.
It is hypocritical to demand that others follow rules that you refuse to follow yourself.
Calm down SZ. No one is demanding anything of you, and certainly not that you must follow rules. Stop being silly.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You throw accusations about, SZ, but seem completely unable to show any evidence whatsoever. Why should we believe you? You say "It's still there". I say "Where"?

Right now anything that requires me to go back is too much effort to be bothered with when it comes down to your claims that you have not been able to justify.

You made a false assumption that “most Christians……….” (fill in the blank with any words of your choice). This is a false assumption because nobody (even you, SZ) knows the thoughts of most Christians.
This is so obvious that it should not need to be said.

And that is an error on your part. You do not know how little the average Christian knows about his Bible. Most hardly read it at all. They are unaware of that verse. This is not an assumption, it is a conclusion based upon a lifetime of observation. If one is unaware of a particular verse one cannot understand it. Most that cite that verse do so when they attempt to defend a literal interpretation of the Bible, and that verse does not support that.

You need to learn the difference between an reasonable conclusion based upon observation and an assumption.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
LOL! You are fooling no one, SZ. You have no idea what the verse means, do you? And if you really believe that you can prove that ‘MOST Christians’ do not understand the meaning of a verse… well, I suggest you do some work on the concept of proof.

Calm down SZ. No one is demanding anything of you, and certainly not that you must follow rules. Stop being silly.
Oh my! There goes another irony meter!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You have yet to understand that you have been shown one of your false assumptions. Your inability to understand why it is a false assumption is your problem.
It may appear to you that I do not value the Ninth Commandment, but I can assure you I do. How things appear to you, SZ, may be different from how things are.
You have as of yet to justify any of your claims of assumption. When one repeatedly state false claims about others, whether one believes those claims or not,that person has broken the Ninth.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
People interpret the Bible to see what they want to see when the truth is right in front of them.
Yes, they do that quite often:rolleyes: We know that the events of Genesis are mythical and yet many interpret the Bible literally. Let's get back to the OP and the mistaken claim that the prophecies referred to the transfiguration. To make that claim one has to ignore the latter half of this prophecy:

"27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

People have not been rewarded according to their works. Read the OP and the multiple verses involved. One can see that that was a prediction of the Second Coming and that has not happened yet, and it is doubtful that it will even happen. To come up with the explanation of the apologists one must pretend large parts of those prophecies do not exist.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes, they do that quite often:rolleyes: We know that the events of Genesis are mythical and yet many interpret the Bible literally. Let's get back to the OP and the mistaken claim that the prophecies referred to the pppp. To make that claim one has to ignore the latter half of this prophecy:

"27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

People have not been rewarded according to their works. Read the OP and the multiple verses involved. One can see that that was a prediction of the Second Coming and that has not happened yet, and it is doubtful that it will even happen. To come up with the explanation of the apologists one must pretend large parts of those prophecies do not exist.

John 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” People interpret the Bible in ways that are convenient for their principles. People want to be their own God and don't want to answer to anybody.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Let's get back to the OP and the mistaken claim that the prophecies referred to the transfiguration. To make that claim one has to ignore the latter half of this prophecy:

"27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

People have not been rewarded according to their works. Read the OP and the multiple verses involved. One can see that that was a prediction of the Second Coming and that has not happened yet, and it is doubtful that it will even happen. To come up with the explanation of the apologists one must pretend large parts of those prophecies do not exist.
Jesus never promised to return to earth and in fact Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was "no more" in the world.
Moreover Jesus never said that He was coming to earth to build a kingdom as Christians believe.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

So the expectation that Christians have of the same man Jesus returning in the same body in the physical clouds and Jesus will bring the kingdom of God to earth is a false expectation based upon their misinterpretation and thus misunderstanding of the Bible.

There will never be a Second Coming of that same man Jesus. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Son of man who came in the glory of his Father with his angels and that He is rewarding every man according to his works. As such, the Bible is correct, its meaning has simply been misconstrued by Christians, ever since it was recorded.

Baha'is do not just make empty claims. All our claims can be backed up by what is in the Bible. The prophecies for the return of Christ have all been fulfilled and that was proven by comparing what the prophecies say to what actually happened on the ground when Baha'u'llah appeared. History and geography do not lie.

William Sears, Thief in the Night
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Jesus never promised to return to earth and in fact Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was "no more" in the world.
Moreover Jesus never said that He was coming to earth to build a kingdom as Christians believe.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

So the expectation that Christians have of the same man Jesus returning in the same body in the physical clouds and Jesus will bring the kingdom of God to earth is a false expectation based upon their misinterpretation and thus misunderstanding of the Bible.

There will never be a Second Coming of that same man Jesus. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Son of man who came in the glory of his Father with his angels and that He is rewarding every man according to his works. As such, the Bible is correct, its meaning has simply been misconstrued by Christians, ever since it was recorded.

Baha'is do not just make empty claims. All our claims can be backed up by what is in the Bible. The prophecies for the return of Christ have all been fulfilled and that was proven by comparing what the prophecies say to what actually happened on the ground when Baha'u'llah appeared. History and geography do not lie.

William Sears, Thief in the Night
The Bible can be and is interpreted in all sorts of ways by people ignoring the parts of it that they do not like or is uncomfortable to them. The Jesus of the Bible does predict an early return when read in context. Did you read the OP? I would suggest going over that. The verses being quoted are interpreted by apologists as the transubstantiation. The problem with that is one must ignore significant parts of the prophecy. Many claim that the legend of the Wandering Jew arose from this prophecy:

Wandering Jew - Wikipedia

According to some[which?] sources, the legend stems from Jesus' words given in Matthew 16:28:

Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, εἰσίν τινες ὧδε ἑστῶτες, οἵτινες οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου, ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐρχόμενον ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ αὐτοῦ.

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (New International Version)

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (King James Version)[14]


That prophecy in context has been a problem for Christianity almost since its conception.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible can be and is interpreted in all sorts of ways by people ignoring the parts of it that they do not like or is uncomfortable to them. The Jesus of the Bible does predict an early return when read in context. Did you read the OP? I would suggest going over that. The verses being quoted are interpreted by apologists as the transubstantiation. The problem with that is one must ignore significant parts of the prophecy. Many claim that the legend of the Wandering Jew arose from this prophecy:

Wandering Jew - Wikipedia

According to some[which?] sources, the legend stems from Jesus' words given in Matthew 16:28:

Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, εἰσίν τινες ὧδε ἑστῶτες, οἵτινες οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου, ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐρχόμενον ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ αὐτοῦ.

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (New International Version)

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (King James Version)[14]

That prophecy in context has been a problem for Christianity almost since its conception.
Yes, I have read the OP and the Jesus of the Bible does predict that the Son of Man would come during the lifetime of the disciples when read in context. However, Jesus never identified himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds, so that was simply an assumption made on the part of Christians.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Nevertheless the Bible is incorrect because the Son of Man did not come back in the days of Jesus.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes, I have read the OP and the Jesus of the Bible does predict that the Son of Man would come during the lifetime of the disciples when read in context. However, Jesus never identified himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds, so that was simply an assumption made on the part of Christians.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Nevertheless the Bible is incorrect because the Son of Man did not come back in the days of Jesus.

Jesus mentioned his second coming in Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus mentioned his second coming in Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
That is not about Jesus, that is about Baha'u'llah.
There will be no second coming of Jesus.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That is not about Jesus, that is about Baha'u'llah.
There will be no second coming of Jesus.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The New Testament and the Old Testament talk about the Messiah having a second coming. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah?"

Answer:
The second coming of Christ is a major tenet of Christian theology, and we eagerly look forward to our “blessed hope” (Titus 2:13). But the knowledge that the Messiah would have two comings came to humanity gradually, as God’s revelation to mankind was progressive.

The Old Testament clearly teaches that the Messiah would come, but it does not explicitly say that He would come twice. The information God revealed about the Messiah started very basic, with more detail added bit by bit. People living in later times knew more than those who lived earlier. Abraham knew more about the purposes of God than did Noah. David knew more than Abraham. The prophets knew more than David. And finally, the apostles in the New Testament knew more than the prophets. The apostles after the resurrection knew more than they did before the resurrection.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. God is the Messiah. Isaiah 43:11. Only God saves. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes, I have read the OP and the Jesus of the Bible does predict that the Son of Man would come during the lifetime of the disciples when read in context. However, Jesus never identified himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds, so that was simply an assumption made on the part of Christians.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Nevertheless the Bible is incorrect because the Son of Man did not come back in the days of Jesus.

Does he had to do that every time? Quite often he referred to himself that way. It is only a reasonable conclusion that when he uses that phrase without claiming that he is the "Son of man" that he is referring to himself.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The New Testament and the Old Testament talk about the Messiah having a second coming. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah?"

Answer:
The second coming of Christ is a major tenet of Christian theology, and we eagerly look forward to our “blessed hope” (Titus 2:13). But the knowledge that the Messiah would have two comings came to humanity gradually, as God’s revelation to mankind was progressive.

The Old Testament clearly teaches that the Messiah would come, but it does not explicitly say that He would come twice. The information God revealed about the Messiah started very basic, with more detail added bit by bit. People living in later times knew more than those who lived earlier. Abraham knew more about the purposes of God than did Noah. David knew more than Abraham. The prophets knew more than David. And finally, the apostles in the New Testament knew more than the prophets. The apostles after the resurrection knew more than they did before the resurrection.
It is true that the Messiah would have two comings, since God’s revelation to mankind was progressive.

The first coming of the Messiah was Jesus, but Jesus was never slated by God to return in the same body.
Jesus could not come back to earth in the same body because that body died on the cross. Jesus did not come back to life walk around and then ascend into the clouds to heaven and live there for 2000 years planning to return at some future date. This is all a belief that came into being from a misinterpretation and thus a misunderstanding of Bible verses, a grave misunderstanding.

The second coming was slated to be another man. Since truth from God is revealed progressively, Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth to reveal more truth in the future, but Christians did not understand what Jesus was referring to and believed that was a reference ton the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit proceeds only from God. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Jesus and descended upon Jesus as a Dove. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah and descended upon Baha’u’llah as a Maiden in the Black Pit prison in 1852 AD.

Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Does he had to do that every time? Quite often he referred to himself that way. It is only a reasonable conclusion that when he uses that phrase without claiming that he is the "Son of man" that he is referring to himself.
In some instances Jesus was referring to himself as the Son of Man and we know that because of the context of those verses where the title is connected with the earthly life of Jesus we know about from cross verification (reading other verses). For example, we know from other verses that Jesus did the following when he came to earth:

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic (Mark 2:10).

So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28).

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head (Matthew 8:20)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again (Mark 8:31).


It is not a reasonable conclusion to assume that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds with great power and glory because:

(a) Great power and glory is not consistent with the personality of Jesus. Jesus was meek and lowly.

(b) Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus was the only Son of Man: 37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia

(c) Jesus could not come back to earth in the same body because His body died on the cross. Jesus did not come back to life walk around and then ascend into the clouds to heaven and live there for 2000 years planning to return at some future date. This is all a belief that came into being from a misinterpretation and thus a misunderstanding of Bible verses, a grave misunderstanding.

(d) There are no verses wherein Jesus says He is coming back to earth and many verses where Jesus says He is not coming back to earth because His work is finished here: (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

The logical conclusion we can draw is that the second coming was slated to be another man. Since truth from God is revealed progressively, Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth to reveal more truth in the future, but Christians did not understand what Jesus was referring to and believed that was a reference ton the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost when on fact those were titles for the man who would be the second coming of Christ who was the return of the Spirit of Christ.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In some instances Jesus was referring to himself as the Son of Man and we know that because of the context of those verses where the title is connected with the earthly life of Jesus we know about from cross verification (reading other verses). For example, we know from other verses that Jesus did the following when he came to earth:

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic (Mark 2:10).

So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28).

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head (Matthew 8:20)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again (Mark 8:31).


It is not a reasonable conclusion to assume that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds with great power and glory because:

(a) Great power and glory is not consistent with the personality of Jesus. Jesus was meek and lowly.

(b) Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus was the only Son of Man: 37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia

(c) Jesus could not come back to earth in the same body because His body died on the cross. Jesus did not come back to life walk around and then ascend into the clouds to heaven and live there for 2000 years planning to return at some future date. This is all a belief that came into being from a misinterpretation and thus a misunderstanding of Bible verses, a grave misunderstanding.

(d) There are no verses wherein Jesus says He is coming back to earth and many verses where Jesus says He is not coming back to earth because His work is finished here: (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

The logical conclusion we can draw is that the second coming was slated to be another man. Since truth from God is revealed progressively, Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth to reveal more truth in the future, but Christians did not understand what Jesus was referring to and believed that was a reference ton the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost when on fact those were titles for the man who would be the second coming of Christ who was the return of the Spirit of Christ.
Or that the Bible was written by several authors, none of whom were eyewitnesses and were relying on oral tradition. Oral tradition will cause quite a few different versions of the same story to arise. The endless contradictions in the Bible seem to confirm this.
 
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