Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Harel13 said:

These two statements are contradictory. I side with the latter, myself.
The rabbis he's talking about are the sages since the time of Moshe. And Jews have never acted as though they follow the literal words of the Tanach. Nor do you yourself, as we've long established, with your claims of extra-biblical traditions and whatnot.
So to use this as proof that Jews who don't convert to Christianity don't deserve to be redeemed is pretty weak and meaningless.

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The apostles in the Old Testament still kept their Jewish traditions after they became followers of Yeshua. I think the original believers were somewhere in between modern Christianity and modern Judaism, like the Messianic Jews.

Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. The former observed the pesach meal as the last supper on the 14th of Nisan, according to quartodeciman practice commanded by the Torah.[1] Whereas the latter declared a lenten fast until the Lord's day at the end of the Holy week, appropriating the name of Pascha for their Eucharist to break the fast. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, which theologically rejected Jewish-Christians, often with physical violence, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christians drifted apart from mainstream Judaism, eventually becoming a minority strand which had mostly disappeared by the fifth century, and did not emerge again until the twentieth century. Jewish–Christian gospelshave been lost except for fragments, so there is considerable uncertainty as to the scriptures used by this group.

The split of Christianity and Judaism took place during the first centuries CE.[2][3]While the First Jewish–Roman War and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE were main events, the separation was a long-term process, in which the boundaries were not clear-cut.[2][3]

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I don't follow extra biblical tradition revelation I follow the Bible. I agree with some Jewish traditions, like the ones that talk about the Messiah having no human father, but not the ones that don't teach what the Old Testament teaches. Nobody is worthy. We all need a Savior. Romans 10:12 says For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Harel13 said:

a. This is all very nice for Romans, but we were talking about Revelation. Different books, you see.

b. I see. This must be some of that "progressive revelation" Christians claim is a thing in the bible. Though Tanach doesn't indicate that a Jew who doesn't keep the commandments is no longer a Jew, comes Paul, who we all know was the wisest, most righteous man of his generation, and teaches us: whoops, here's a secret Hashem never bothered to tell the other Jews!
Yep, 1200 years or so of delusions.
Fine, so it's not replacement theology. It just goes entirely against the Tanach.

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I was just looking at your inscription "You don't need to be Jewish to be good." Since you talk about Paul and things like that, I wonder what, first of all, you mean by 'good.' If one doesn't need to be Jewish to be good, do you mean that all Jews are good?

YoursTrue said:

I was just looking at your inscription "You don't need to be Jewish to be good." Since you talk about Paul and things like that, I wonder what, first of all, you mean by 'good.' If one doesn't need to be Jewish to be good, do you mean that all Jews are good?

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Jews are people like every other ethnicity. We got righteous Jews, evil Jews, good Jews, bad Jews, and mediocre Jews. Just like everyone else. What Jews have is the oracles of God -- we have the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings (what others call the Old Testament). Through the Torah, we have a highly specific call from God to be an ethical, priestly people. Do we rise to the occasion? Sometimes yes, other times no. Some of us yes, some of us no. But the plan is there for us in black and white, our covenant with God.

What was said previously is that you don't need to be a Jew to be a good person. You don't need to be part of our people, you don't need to be keeping our covenant i.e. keeping kosher, observing the Shabbat, doing the Holy Days, separating your linen from your wool, etc. It is fine if you just simply keep basic morals, which are obvious to everyone. Don't murder. Don't steal. You get the picture.

Skywalker said:

Jewish people don't follow the Old Covenant anymore.

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I'm a Jewish person, and I follow the original covenant, as spelled out in the written torah and oral torah.

Skywalker said:

Replacement theology is a myth. God has only had one people-those who live by faith.

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LOL You have no idea just ironic the above statement is. It really had me in stitches. You see, for something that is supposed to be a myth, you then articulated it perfectly as something you personally believe.

dybmh said:

Or... the apostles were exaggerating similar to the other examples: cursing fig trees, moving mountains, ask for anything and you'll get it if you believe, hate your parents, leave your family, drinking blood, eating flesh...

All of those examples you have previously claimed were exagerations in the Christian bible, so, it makes sense that the serpent as a fallen angel is an exaggeration like the others.

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Parables are not "exaggerations", they are stories meant to hide the kingdom from those without ears to hear (Is 6:9). The "mountain" being thrown into the sea, is not a mountain per se, but the the daughters of Babylon being thrown into the sea on the faith, of a single player with faith. Babylon is referred to as mountain, as Zion, the congregation of God, is referred to the mountain of the Lord. It is unlawful to drink blood, but the term wine is used as a symbol of blood, because the life resides within the blood, and the life refers to the "breath of God", such as the Spirit of God. The flesh is the "Word made flesh", is the Word being made flesh per the message of the son of man/good seed /wheat seed/made into unleavened bread (bread without the leaven/hypocrisy of the Pharisees/Paul (Mt 13:37). Those with eyes to see, and ears to hear, the righteous, the "few", will understand and act. The "many", will follow the wide path of the false prophets, and walk into "destruction" (Mt 7:13-27).

2ndpillar said:

Parables are not "exaggerations", they are stories meant to hide the kingdom from those without ears to hear (Is 6:9). The "mountain" being thrown into the sea, is not a mountain per se, but the the daughters of Babylon being thrown into the sea on the faith, of a single player with faith. Babylon is referred to as mountain, as Zion, the congregation of God, is referred to the mountain of the Lord. It is unlawful to drink blood, but the term wine is used as a symbol of blood, because the life resides within the blood, and the life refers to the "breath of God", such as the Spirit of God. The flesh is the "Word made flesh", is the Word being made flesh per the message of the son of man/good seed /wheat seed/made into unleavened bread (bread without the leaven/hypocrisy of the Pharisees/Paul (Mt 13:37). Those with eyes to see, and ears to hear, the righteous, the "few", will understand and act. The "many", will follow the wide path of the false prophets, and walk into "destruction" (Mt 7:13-27).

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Thank you for your reply.

Specifically focusing on John 6:53, the verse is phrased as an Oath. Whatever follows "amen, amen" needs to be completely true, not a parable, else the speaker is lying.

Jewish Virtual Library - Oath

IndigoChild5559 said:

I'm a Jewish person, and I follow the original covenant, as spelled out in the written torah and oral torah.

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The Oral Torah is traditions that don't necessarily agree with what the Old Testament teaches.

IndigoChild5559 said:

LOL You have no idea just ironic the above statement is. It really had me in stitches. You see, for something that is supposed to be a myth, you then articulated it perfectly as something you personally believe.

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Job was a follower of the Messiah of Israel and he lived during the days of the Old Covenant.

YoursTrue said:

I was just looking at your inscription "You don't need to be Jewish to be good." Since you talk about Paul and things like that, I wonder what, first of all, you mean by 'good.' If one doesn't need to be Jewish to be good, do you mean that all Jews are good?

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a. Obviously not. Paul was evil. Jesus may have also been. Multiple Jewish apostates to Christianity were evil, like Pablo Christiani. Then we have people like Bernie Madoff. So, no.
b. The quote I have in my signature aligns well with Jewish beliefs that there's no need for the pushy proselytizing of some other religions, in particular certain sects of Christianity, and every person can find fulfillment in worshiping God pretty much as they are. No need to convert. There's an expectation that all will come one day to worship God as God intended, without the falsehoods of various religions, but besides that, there's no need to actually convert to Judaism.
c. An extension of that is that for many ages, it was thought in various religions that to be fully good, one must convert to that particular religion. Modern Western thought has forced various religions to seemingly change these core views and claim that there are alternative paths to God. I very much doubt that the people who started these religions intended for this to be so, that one needn't convert to worship fully and merit God's blessing, and I'm sure there are still many people from these religions who maintain that this modernized theology is heretical. For ages now, Judaism has not advocated for any form of "convert and be saved". Judaism has a concept of "righteous among the nations". That's not something that popped up due to the West.

Skywalker said:

Job was a follower of the Messiah of Israel and he lived during the days of the Old Covenant.

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I guess Ezekiel was a follower of Horus; he just never met Horus or had anything to do with him.

Rival said:

I guess Ezekiel was a follower of Horus; he just never met Horus or had anything to do with him.

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Job knew that God was his redeemer. Only God redeems things. Job's Redeemer

Job’s Surge of Faith
First, the suffering sage longed to make a permanent declaration of his innocence (i.e., his current affliction is undeserved). Oh, that his protest might be written in a book; better yet, let it be carved in stone (the depressions of which would be filled with lead—real permanence!). Thus, when vindication eventually comes, his integrity would be established.

Then, Job expressed deep confidence relative to the existence of his Redeemer-God. “I know,” he declared, “that my Redeemer lives.” The Hebrew term denotes knowledge of a personal, experiential nature. In the original text, the emphatic position of the pronoun “I” indicates that Job had a settled conviction regarding his Redeemer (Smick 1988, 942).

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Skywalker said:

Job knew that God was his redeemer. Only God redeems things. Job's Redeemer

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What has this to do with the Messiah?

Rival said:

What has this to do with the Messiah?

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The Messiah is the One chosen by God and anointed by Him to save His people from their sins. Genesis 1:26 mentions God being complex in His unity. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. The Messiah is the Son of God.

Skywalker said:

The Messiah is the One chosen by God and anointed by Him to save His people from their sins. Genesis 1:26 mentions God being complex in His unity. The Messiah is the Son of God.

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None of this is right.

Rival said:

None of this is right.

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The Messiah is God. Isaiah 43:11. Only God saves. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Skywalker said:

The Messiah is God. Isaiah 43:11. Only God saves. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

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Considering this isn't my faith tradition anymore and I've had this argument how many times, I'll pass.

Rival said:

Considering this isn't my faith tradition anymore and I've had this argument how many times, I'll pass.

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Just because we are taught a belief since childhood doesn't mean that it's the one supported by evidence. Christianity has historical proof. The apostles were real people who lived with Christ and they were persecuted for their faith in Christ and they didn't recant. They had nothing to gain by following Christ. Christianity is about the love of God for His creation and it's the only belief system where God reaches out to people and not people reach out to God.

Skywalker said:

it's the only belief system where God reaches out to people and not people reach out to God.

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Excuse me? Judaism, Islam, Baha'ism, various Paganisms all have this.

Rival said:

Excuse me? Judaism, Islam, Baha'ism, various Paganisms all have this.

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Jesus was God incarnated who died for our sins. Jesus Died So God Wouldn't Be Angry With Us Anymore...and Other Misunderstandings about the Cross - Missio Alliance

Jesus wasn’t born just to die, as if the death of Jesus alone saves us. The entire birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of King Jesus rescues the world from sin and death. According to the venerable Athanasius, Jesus took on our humanity so as God he could ultimately conquer death, so that if Jesus pays a debt, it is debt owed to death. He writes:

“Having proved His Godhead by His works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man’s account with death and free him from the primal transgression.” —Athanasius, On the Incarnation [2]

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