Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Rival said:

"The text says this!"

"Yeah but... it means the exact opposite."

Because certain Christian theology needs it to say something else.

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In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet wrote of God: “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.” On occasion, unbelievers appeal to this verse in an attempt to involve the Bible in a moral difficulty, since the text seems to suggest that God “created” evil. How should a Christian respond to such a charge?

First of all, the verse can have no reference to moral evil (wickedness) for such is opposed to the infinitely holy nature of God (Isaiah 6:3). Jehovah is a “God of faithfulness and without iniquity”(Deuteronomy 32:4). He is “not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness” (Psalm 5:4). Nor can it be supposed that this verse has to do with Jehovah’s original creation, for at the termination of the creation week, the Lord saw “everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

The context of Isaiah 45:7, along with several passages of similar import, reveals the truth of the matter. Jehovah—through the prophet Isaiah—prophetically announced to King Cyrus of Persia (a century-and-a-half before the monarch’s birth!) His intention of using this pagan king as an instrument of His holy will. Within Isaiah 45:1-7 is a majestic affirmation of the universal sovereignty of the Almighty God; indeed, there is none like Him (vs. 5). He thus affirms: “I form light, and create darkness [i.e., control nature]; I make peace, and create evil [i.e., exercise control over the nations]; I am Jehovah that doeth all these things.”

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Skywalker said:

why wouldn't angels

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Skywalker said:

God allowed other nations to take Israel into captivity as judgement on Israel for walking away from God, but He didn't cause it. Does God "Create" Evil?

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Harel13 said:

Why should they? Do animals also have free will?

I see. So you have no answer as to why the verse in Isaiah says that God creates evil.

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From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.
Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won’t cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people.

Third, other verses clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.

• “The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He,” (Deut. 32:4).
• “Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor,” (Hab. 1:13).

We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word rah (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually the verse is speaking of calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster or calamity.

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Skywalker said:

The word evil mentioned in Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6 does not refer to moral evil. God judged Israel for following false gods and walking away from Him. Does God create evil? Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. | carm.org

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Harel13 said:

Sure...okay then, I'll bite. Therefore, Satan/the devil's evil also isn't moral evil. Just calamity and distress, continuing God's line of calamity and distress.

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Idolatry, for Hosea, is about covenant betrayal. The Israelites have renounced their loyalty to the God who gave them everything. This disloyalty results in doing things mentioned above like swearing, deception, murder, stealing, sexual perversion, etc. This is especially inexcusable given this is the God to whom the Israelites owe everything. Israel’s covenant betrayal is the reason why you get this really emotive language on God’s part. No other biblical book includes such detailed description of God’s inner feelings.

He’s portrayed as a spurned spouse whose feelings are hurt and a loving parent who grieves the fate of his rebellious child. You’re meant to imagine a husband whose stomach is in knots because his wife hasn’t come home yet. And he knows what she’s out doing. Or, a dad slumped over in his study looking at an old picture of his son remembering what it was like before his son cut himself off from the family. God is in anguish over Israel’s unfaithfulness. In Hosea 11:8 he cries, “How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel?” He was sick over the idea of sending them into exile, but this was the result of Israel’s idolatry. They broke the covenant and now they would experience the consequences.

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Harel13 said:

Sure...okay then, I'll bite. Therefore, Satan/the devil's evil also isn't moral evil. Just calamity and distress, continuing God's line of calamity and distress.

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SATAN IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN (GENESIS 3:1-5)
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, lest you die.’” And the serpent said to the woman, “You surely shall not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:1-5).

Man was put in charge of the garden (Genesis 1:26-31). So far as we can tell, Satan had no authority, no part in the rule of God over the creation. The chain of command indicated in chapters 1-3 is Adam, Eve, and then Satan (as a creature). Satan, in true form, manages to turn this order of authority upside-down. He takes charge, gets to Adam through Eve, and brings about the fall. Satan’s arrogance and self-confidence ooze from the verses of our text.

The one who wanted to be “like God,” and who was cast down because of his pride and ambition (Isaiah 14:13-14; see Ezekiel 28:2, 9), now convinces Eve that disobedience to God’s command will make men “like God” (Genesis 3:5). Satan begins with a question, raising doubts about the goodness of God, and ending with a flat denial of God’s words which imply that God is a liar. He changes Eve’s perspective, so that the God who graciously forbade eating from the forbidden tree is viewed as a God who withholds what is good from man for His own selfish reasons. In the final analysis, Satan seems to achieve a total success by bringing about in men the same rebellion for which he was condemned. Satan approaches Eve as an ally, but in the end he is exposed as her adversary. The fall of man, and its resulting curses, are a direct result of Satan’s deception.

(2) Satan is counted among the “sons of God” and is thus still included among the angels.

(3) Satan has freedom to go about the earth and even has access to heaven and the throne of God.

(4) Satan acknowledges God’s authority, but he does not respect it or fully submit to it. Satan knows he cannot afflict Job without God’s permission. He acknowledges that for him to afflict Job is ultimately for God to afflict him (Job 1:11; 2:5).

(5) Satan is arrogant toward God. Satan’s retort, “Skin for skin,” in verse 4 of chapter 2 may not be fully understood, but the attitude behind it is obvious. Satan shows no respect for God.

(6) Satan assumes that men are like him--that they strive for success and shun suffering. Satan’s words reveal his belief that men only serve God when it serves their own fleshly interests, and that they will turn from God when suffering comes into their lives. Satan cannot imagine anyone worshipping God for who He is, rather than for what He gives. He thinks men must be bribed to worship and to serve God. His view is: “Take away the success, replace it with suffering, and saints will turn from God.”

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Skywalker said:

Why would an angel who works for God tempt people into sin? 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org

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Harel13 said:

Christianity's claims that the snake is Satan is very weak, considering the latter is never, ever said to being the former. Moreover, this article's claim that the Satan in Job has free will, is arrogant and deceptive is utterly baseless. You can say that the attitude is obvious, but that doesn't mean the attitude is obvious. You can say that Satan assumes men are like him, but since he doesn't actually say that, or hint to it, it doesn't mean that's the case. And so forth.

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Skywalker said:

2 Corinthians 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Revelation 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

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Skywalker said:

God allowed the King of Persia to take the Israelites into captivity because Israel walked away from God and turned to pagan gods. Two looks at Israel's Covenant Failure | BibleProject™

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Ehav4Ever said:

Greetings,

Again, you are proving out the OP. It is your interpretation based on Christian standards that drives your statement.



Again, you are proving out the OP. Your understanding of what a Pharisee or even a Sadducee even is comes from Christian standards based on the NT. For Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews both the Christian standard and the NT historically and theologically inaccurate.



Actually, I didn't say that Jesus stated that. I wrote that the NT author put that in there. Even the statement, as it is written in the Greek and the Hebrew translation leads me back to the same conclusion that the NT author's were trying to make a political statement. I.e. the Jews have the correct text of the Torah and the correct authority about how to understand and practice the Torah. Yet, the NT author had to find a way to seperate the Jewish Christians out of the Torath Mosheh communities of that time. Easy way out. Add a statement of "Do what they say because they have it right, BUT since certain individuals don't do what they themselves say don't act like them. Yet, what they say do it." Yet, we all know the historical reality is that the original Jewish Christians disappeared historically within 2 generations of their start while the Torath Mosheh Jews of that generation survived. That speaks volumes.



Again, the OP again. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews have a practice is called "we read something from start to finish" in the language it was written and then come to a conclusion on what it says. Yet, I know this is not a practice of some sects of Christianity. Again, OP says it all.

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Harel13 said:

That has nothing to do with my statement, nor does it strengthen your view.

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When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they were both innocent and good. Yet, God allowed Satan into the Garden knowing that Satan would tempt Eve and that they would both end up sinning. Why did he do that?

On my radio show, an atheist called in and tried to trap me by posing a moral dilemma. He was smart enough not to appeal to his own atheistic moral standard, so he tried a different tact. He asked if I believed it was wrong to put a murderer and child molester in a room with a child, knowing how bad the guy was and knowing what could happen. I said that it would be wrong to do so. He then applied that to God allowing Satan in the Garden and how that it is also wrong because God knew what would happen. Unfortunately, the criticism doesn’t work. Here’s why.

First of all, Adam was not a child. He was a grown man. He had, to some degree, knowledge of right and wrong because God had told him not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In other words, Adam had been given a Law to follow that in itself included the option to obey or disobey. That is what the issue is about, not physical size in comparing a full-grown bad guy and a small defenseless child. Adam made a moral choice, a wrong choice. So, the analogy doesn’t work.

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Skywalker said:

God allows Satan to tempt and afflict people but he doesn't cause it. He allowed Satan to tempt Eve and afflict Job but he didn't cause it. Why did God let Satan into the Garden knowing what would happen?

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Harel13 said:

For the umpteenth time, quoting the NT to Jews is meaningless and proves nothing. And certainly such a hateful work such as Revelation.

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There are two key passages in the Bible where God promises to bless those who support Israel and to curse those who do not. The first one is found in Gen. 12:2-3. God is speaking to Abraham when He says the following:

And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.” (NASB) Gen. 12:2-3

God promises to make Abraham’s descendants a great nation, and He promises to bless them. But anyone who seeks to harm them will be cursed. This is the reason to support Israel. Any nation in the world who seeks to harm Israel will find God’s wrath upon it. God’s wrath will come when He chooses. For some it will not occur until the end of the world (Rev. 18:1-2,24; 20:11-15). The second key passage is found in Gen. 27:29. It has the same idea of Genesis 12:2-3.

Conclusion:
God has a similar attitude for Christians. He loves both Jews and Gentiles. But God does have a special attitude for His chosen people. Our God is a God who seeks relationships. He is not a cold and sterile God. He wants us to love and seek Him.

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• As for their claim to being the “chosen people of God,” the Jews in Germany rejected their “chosen-ness” status during the later part of the 19th century to better assimilate into German culture. Nevertheless, they suffered the Holocaust. Today, some Christians and Muslims claim to be the “chosen people” of God, yet for the most part, the world tolerates them and still hates the Jews.

This brings us to the real reason why the world hates the Jews. The apostle Paul tells us, “For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!” (Romans 9:3-5). The truth is that the world hates the Jews because the world hates God. The Jews were God’s firstborn, His chosen people (Deuteronomy 14:2). Through the Jewish patriarchs, the prophets, and the temple, God used the Jews to bring forth His Word, the Law, and morality to a world of sin. He sent forth His son, Jesus the Christ, in a Jewish body to redeem the world of sin. Satan, the prince of the earth (John 14:30; Ephesians 2:2), has poisoned the minds of men with his hatred of the Jews. See Revelation 12 for an allegorical depiction of Satan’s (the dragon’s) hatred of the Jewish nation (the woman).

Satan has tried to wipe out the Jews through the Babylonians, the Persians, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, and the Nazis. But he’s failed every time. God is not finished with Israel. Romans 11:26tells us that some day all Israel will be saved, and this cannot come to pass if Israel no longer exists. Therefore, God will preserve the Jews for the future, just as He has preserved their remnant throughout history, until His final plan comes to pass. Nothing can thwart God’s plan for Israel and the Jewish people.

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Skywalker said:

Revelation isn't hateful to Jewish people.

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Harel13 said:

Excellent, so you agree with me that Satan doesn't do evil from himself but at God's behest.

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SATAN AS THE ADVERSARY OF ISRAEL
Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and to the princes of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan, and bring me word that I may know their number.” And Joab said, “May the Lord add to His people a hundred times as many as they are! But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord’s servants? Why does my lord seek this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt to Israel?” Nevertheless, the king’s word prevailed against Joab. Therefore, Joab departed and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem. And Joab gave the number of the census of all the people to David. And all Israel were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword; and Judah was 470,000 men who drew the sword. But he did not number Levi and Benjamin among them, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab. And God was displeased with this thing, so He struck Israel. And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly, in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of Thy servant, for I have done very foolishly” (1 Chronicles 21:1-8).

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Skywalker said:

God uses Satan to test people, but Satan is the enemy of God, not an agent of God

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Skywalker said:

Why would an angel who works for God tempt people into sin?

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Harel13 said:

Revelation 2:9:

"I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
​

I also wrote a poem in relation to this passage, if you're interested in reading it.

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To the church in Smyrna, Jesus says, “I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9).

To the church of Philadelphia in Asia Minor, Jesus says, “I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you” (Revelation 3:9).

In short, the synagogue of Satan was a group of unbelieving Jews who were persecuting Christians. These groups were guilty of slandering the church in Smyrna and opposing the church in Philadelphia in some way.

The majority of the persecution the New Testament church faced came from the Jewish community. Even most of the Roman persecution was an effort to appease the Jewish authorities. This is true of Pilate’s condemnation of Jesus (John 19:1–16) and Paul’s imprisonment by the Roman governors Felix (Acts 24:27) and Festus (Acts 25:16). This pattern held true throughout the Roman world in the first century. As long as Christians were considered a sect of Judaism, they were exempt from the required observance of certain aspects of Roman state religion. However, as Christians were expelled from synagogues and denounced by the Jewish leadership, Rome began to see Christianity as a new religion that did not have these same exemptions. Therefore, Christians outside the protective umbrella of the synagogue were open to Roman persecution.

The synagogue of Satan say they are Jews (the people of God), and they persecute those who believe in Jesus the Messiah (the true people of God). In reality, by rejecting the Jewish Messiah, they have renounced their status as “true” Jews, and that is why Jesus calls them “liars.” This distinction between ethnic Jews and faithful Jews is also seen in Romans 9:6 (“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”) and Romans 2:28–29 (“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter”). By their persecution of the true people of God, these unbelieving Jews had become a synagogue of Satan—a gathering of people who were actually following the devil’s priorities.

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Harel13 said:

This sounds contradictory. God both uses Satan and allows him to be an enemy of his?
Wow, god sure created such a stupid angel to fall for that.

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