JWs & The Bible

KenS said:

PHILLIPS Luke 17:21
Later, he was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he gave them this reply: “The kingdom of God never comes by watching for it. Men cannot say, ‘Look, here it is’, or ‘there it is’, for the kingdom of God is inside you.”

KJV Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

YLT nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Is it not within us already?

Click to expand...

Are you a Pharisee? That was a joke Ken.
Was Jesus not speaking to Pharisees?

Luke 17:21
New International Version
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Living Translation
You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is already among you.”

English Standard Version
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Berean Study Bible
Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Berean Literal Bible
nor will they say, 'Behold here,' or 'There.' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

New King James Version
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

New American Standard Bible
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NASB 1995
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NASB 1977
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Amplified Bible
nor will people say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For the kingdom of God is among you [because of My presence].”

Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, ‘See here! ’ or ‘There! ’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, 'Look here!' or 'There!' For you see, the kingdom of God is among you."

American Standard Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Neither do they say, 'Behold, here it is!' and 'Behold, from here to there!', for behold, the Kingdom of God is within some of you.”

Contemporary English Version
There is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you."

Douay-Rheims Bible
Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

English Revised Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Good News Translation
No one will say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!'; because the Kingdom of God is within you."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

International Standard Version
People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."

Literal Standard Version
nor will they say, Behold, here; or, Behold, there; for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

NET Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Heart English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here.' or, 'Look, there.' for the Kingdom of God is within you."

Weymouth New Testament
Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' --for the Kingdom of God is within you."

World English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

Young's Literal Translation
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

The more the merrier, right.
What is the kingdom of God, is a very important question then, isn't it?
So that's why we are examining the scriptures.
Let's continue to do so.

Consider that when Jesus came preaching the good news of the kingdom, it was his central message.
So it is expected that he spoke about it throughout his ministry.
He used illustrations in explaining it.
No one got it. His apostles got a bit, but it only became clearer in time. So we began with the question regarding the sacred secret of the kingdom.

Let's step back there and come forward.
I'm going to go fairly rapidly, so I am trusting you will keep up.

What God purposed to do after Adam sinned was kept secret but revealed later... to Christ's faithful apostles who put faith in him.
However, God began working out his purpose from Genesis 3:15.

He found a faithful man - Abraham - through whom the promised seed would come.
He was with Isaac - the one whom the seed would come.
He proved to be with Jacob, or Israel.
He put up with them to keep his promise, and fulfill his purpose.
The tribe of Judah was preserved from which the great ruler, whose kingdom would last, would come.
(Genesis 49:10) . . .The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
Cutting to the chase through to David (Matthew 1:1-6) we arrive at Matthew 1:18-23.
However, we want Luke's account, for the reason we are having this discussion.

(Luke 1:26-33) 26 In her sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house, and the name of the virgin was Mary. 28 And coming in, the angel said to her: “Greetings, you highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” 29 But she was deeply disturbed at his words and tried to understand what kind of greeting this might be. 30 So the angel said to her: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”

We could actually conclude our answer to the question of what is God's kingdom, on this point Ken. So as to be clear...
Shiloh - the Messiah is to rule on God's throne, in his kingdom.
Recall that the kings of Judah sat on Jehovah's throne - not his heavenly throne, but they represented his throne, or rulership, on earth.
(1 Kings 1:17) Your son Solomon will become king after me, and he is the one who will sit on my throne.’
Jesus himself said that he would sit on God's throne.

Even though David did not know the sacred secret, he was given prophetic utterances related to it. (Acts 2:30-36) 30 
God has appointed his chosen king - (Psalm 2:6-12) . . .“I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”

Why the kingdom?
Why did God have an arrangement for a rulership - a kingdom government, in the hands of his son - ruled by his son?
(Isaiah 9:7) To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

Notice how Isaiah 9:6, 7 is translated in almost all Bibles...
New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Living Translation
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Berean Study Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

New King James Version
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB 1995
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB 1977
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Amplified Bible
For to us a Child shall be born, to us a Son shall be given; And the government shall be upon His shoulder, And His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on his shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

International Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

Literal Standard Version
For a Child has been born to us, "" A Son has been given to us, "" And the dominion is on His shoulder, "" And He calls His Name "" Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, "" Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

NET Bible
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
His dominion will be great, and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness, from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

World English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Verse 7 reads much the same way in all transactions...
New International Version
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Why the kingdom?
The verses say, to establish peace, and rightness, or righteousness, and justice... forever
It reminds us of the words that rang out in the ears of those shepherds who were visited by the angels...
(Luke 2:13, 14) 13 Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying: 14 “Glory in the heights above to God, and on earth peace among men of goodwill.”
The Kingdom will accomplish basically two things, mentioned there. There is more.... Yes, I know it's a book I wrote, but it's my favorite. It's also the theme and overall message of the Bible, which shows the harmony of the scriptures, and proves a number of things, including the truth related to the theme of this thread.

In summary ...
The kingdom of God is a government set up by God, in the hands of the one whom God appointed ruler - Jesus Christ.
(Daniel 2:44) . . .“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,
So no. It is nothing in the heart of men
Jesus Christ chose men to rule in that kingdom with him.
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
It is a little flock compared to the other sheep.
(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
The kingdom rules the earth - its domain - from heaven.
(2 Timothy 4:18) . . .The Lord will rescue me from every wicked work and will save me for his heavenly Kingdom. . . .
It will accomplish God's will, as stated in Ephesians 1:3-14

I may give you the other part shortly, but please take your time, no rush.
I still want to hear you on those scriptures mentioned earlier.

I have about two to three hours on my hands, so I'll use that time now, and connect the end to the beginning.

The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Read Genesis 1 and 2 for a complete history)

(Psalm 115:15-18) 15 May you be blessed by Jehovah, The Maker of heaven and earth. 16 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men. 17 The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death. 18 But we will praise Jah From now on and forever. Praise Jah!

(Isaiah 45:18) For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

God created a realm, where he would reside with his spirit sons - a family in heaven.
He then created another realm - an earthly realm, where an extended family of physical beings would dwell.
Both the heavenly and earthly family would become one universal family - united under one universal king, who sets the laws for the family, to maintain order and peace, forever.
That was God's purpose.

A Rebel - in God's household.

A rebellious one - evidently, thinking too much of himself ( example , and likely being jealous and envious - desiring what did not belong to him - rulership... an angel disrupted the peace in God's family, and sought to sow discord, doubt, mistrust, and hatred in the minds of the other family members...

Of course, the angel, called Satan (opposer) because he opposed, or challenged God, and Devil (slanderer) because he told wicked lies against God, was making accusations in the presence of God's entire heavenly family. The Devil raised an issue that needed to be settled.
Would slapping Satan in the mouth and demanding he shut his lying mouth (as some parents sadly do) settle the issue? In other words, would zapping Satan out of existence settle the issues he raised?

What were those issues?
These accusations were not directed only to the earthly family, but all the family. (Revelation 12:10) I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

Unlike Jesus, who loves the father, Satan does not.
Satan brought into question, God's right to direct mankind, and be their absolute ruler. He challenged God's universal sovereignty... before all the heavenly sons.

Thus God's purpose was not immediately realized.
God's purpose however, cannot be thwarted and never fails. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) 10 For just as the rain and the snow pour down from heaven And do not return there until they saturate the earth, making it produce and sprout, Giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.

God's creative works for the heavens and earth were completed. (Genesis 2:1-3) 1 Thus the heavens and the earth and everything in them were completed. 2 And by the seventh day, God had completed the work that he had been doing, and he began to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had been doing. 3 And God went on to bless the seventh day and to declare it sacred, for on it God has been resting from all the work that he has created, all that he purposed to make.

God's rest day continues, during which there is time for his overall purpose to be realized, when all things will be completed, or accomplished - finished.
This is where the sacred secret entered.

Ephesians 1:8-14

Romans 8 is another scripture that reveals more about the sacred secret of the kingdom.
(Romans 8:18-25)

Spoiler: Read

18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

Immediately after the human family from whose genes the entire human race would come, fell, God's first prophecy was uttered concerning 'the sacred secret of his will'.

(Genesis 3:14, 15) 14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

Symbolically expressing his will for a seed to deal a death blow to Satan, God determined according to his will, an administration for accomplishing his purpose. (Ephesians 1:3-14)
This scripture in Ephesians keeps coming up for a purpose. It tells us what the sacred secret is, and connects us to key related scriptures.


Key points to keep in mind...
The sacred secret involves God's purpose. Not our own.
God's purpose is to have a united family in heaven, and on earth, living forever in peace.

How has God determined to accomplish his purpose?
God purposed to bring about peace and unity through Jesus Christ ruling as king in God's kingdom.

Expressing great undeserved kindness, God foreordained that some humans would be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:3-7)

God purposed an administration (a way of managing his household affairs) by which he would unite with himself through Christ those chosen to be in the heavens and those who would live on earth (Ephesians 1:8-13)

Jesus has been given power and authority to accomplish this - bringing an end to all enemies of God - including Satan - dealing him a crushing fatal blow.
(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.


Once God's will and purpose is accomplished - Genesis 3:15 is accomplished, the instrument used to accomplish it - God's kingdom in the hands of Christ will ... this will happen...
(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

God's sovereignty - his right to rule, would have been vindicated. The issues Satan raised would have been settled once and for all, so that God may be all things to everyone.
Everyone would obey him, knowing that he is rightful king.

All God's children, both in heaven and on earth, would be united as one, under the universal law of God.
Peace, rightness, and justice would last eternally.
Ephesians 1:3-13 would have been fulfilled.
God's purpose would have been accomplished, and realized.

We would no longer say the "Lord's prayer", or the "Our Father", because that would be fulfilled -
(Matthew 6:9, 10) . . .“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.

Those blessed will enjoy the peaceful conditions, promised in the scriptures.
(Psalm 37:11) . . .the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

(Psalm 37:29) . . .The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.

(Revelation 21:4) . . .he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Even the animals will be at peace.
(Isaiah 11:6-9) 6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

That Ken my friend, is the good news of the Kingdom.
The sacred secret of the kingdom is how God does it, and involves the arrangement for the little flock of 144,000 made up of both Jews and Gentiles, to make up kings and priest, who will rule over the earth.

What is very beautiful about that sacred secret, is that if we look at the arrangement God had in place with the Israelites, we will see an exact pattern.
Did you notice that?

That's the end.
So I look forward your feedback and our discussion to follow.

nPeace said:

What spirits are you talking about? The ones you thought up. Which scriptures say what you believe? None.


Which scripture has Jesus in the flesh after his death? None.

Click to expand...

I made a mistake about the JWs teaching about 1Pet 3:18,19 and it is one of those scriptures that are a bit obscure and cannot be used to prove anything either way.
But of course I do keep mentioning scriptures which say that Jesus will be raised bodily and even point to places where we are plainly told that Jesus rose bodily, physically. You just ignore those and repeat silly stuff like Which scripture has Jesus in the flesh after his death? None.

Why don't you just answer the scriptures I provide instead of making smoke screens and obfuscation and avoidance tactics. It's a shame that the WT law says that you cannot become a politician,,,,,,,,,,,,you would make a good one.

nPeace said:

What foolishness am I hearing? You know very little about JWs Brian.
JWs do not teach that nonsense.
Where did you find such foolishness, except on an erroneous website.
That obviously came out of the sewer. I warned you about drinking from those sewage websites and bringing their contaminated waters here, but you would not listen.

Forgive me Brian, for thinking aloud. Sometimes that's necessary.
Please cite the Watchtower that says such rubbish.. err... Can't find another word..

Click to expand...

Sorry a mistake on my part.

nPeace said:

More rubbish Brian? Oops.
It is clear to me Brian, you now need to go and read your Bible, because you are repeatedly showing that you don't even know what the Bible says.
Where does the Bible say humans have spirits that live on after death? Nowhere.

Click to expand...

Lazarus parable (Luke 16.) Witch of Endor story (1Sam 28.)
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
JWs teaching about what death entails is completely against what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that we go out of existence after death. I give you verses. Can you show me where the Bible says we go out of existence after death?

nPeace said:

What ? What ? Why is this here?

Click to expand...

Yon don't like 1Tim 6:14. That's understandable. It does not show an invisible Jesus.

nPeace said:

Let's look.
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So let me see if I understand what you are saying. My grandad is dead. His body eaten by worms.
You are saying that a buried body is not eaten by worms but is changed?
Or are you saying something else.
Please explain. Also, changed to what?

Let me get that clear before I go on.

Click to expand...

1John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
I cannot say exactly what we will be. I can say that it will be a spiritual body, one that is controllable by our spirits. Note that this does not say a "spirit" body. The use of "spiritual" in the New Testament shows the meaning and that is not that it is made from spirit.
Yes our bodies will be resurrected (Romans 8:11,23) even if that mean a reconstruction of them from the elements.
The bodies will be transformed into the glorified resurrection bodies, the immortal and incorruptible bodies. If you deny the resurrection of Jesus as depicted in the gospels and twist the meaning of a couple of other verses and ignore the prophecies about the resurrection of Jesus with a body then you might end up with a JW view of the resurrection.
Why do you never answer the scriptures I put to you?

Brian2 said:

I made a mistake about the JWs teaching about 1Pet 3:18,19 and it is one of those scriptures that are a bit obscure and cannot be used to prove anything either way.
But of course I do keep mentioning scriptures which say that Jesus will be raised bodily and even point to places where we are plainly told that Jesus rose bodily, physically. You just ignore those and repeat silly stuff like Which scripture has Jesus in the flesh after his death? None.

Why don't you just answer the scriptures I provide instead of making smoke screens and obfuscation and avoidance tactics. It's a shame that the WT law says that you cannot become a politician,,,,,,,,,,,,you would make a good one.

Click to expand...

Did you admit that if Jesus is raised a spirit, he could materialize physical bodies? Yes?
Then your whole argument for your beliefs crumble like a stack of cards blown by the wind.

Jesus was raised spirit - a spiritual body, as the scriptures say.

You claimed Jesus was raised in the flesh.

You showed no scripture of Jesus being raise in the flesh. None.

nPeace said:

Did you admit that if Jesus is raised a spirit, he could materialize physical bodies? Yes?
Then your whole argument for your beliefs crumble like a stack of cards blown by the wind.

Jesus was raised spirit - a spiritual body, as the scriptures say.

You claimed Jesus was raised in the flesh.

You showed no scripture of Jesus being raise in the flesh. None.

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Matt 28:5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell His disciples, ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see Him.’ See, I have told you.”

That looks like just one of the scriptures I showed you. Think about it.
Where did He tell them He would rise from the dead, maybe in a number of places. The one that comes to mind is this one.

John 2:18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Brian2 said:

Sorry a mistake on my part.

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A mistake Brian?
Are you in the habit of making up stuff about JWs, and then calling it a mistake?
Why should I accept that you made a mistake?
Is it not, rather the case that you are the buisness of garbage collection and disposal, since wherever you are getting this stuff from, is obviously from the sewer... wherever that is?
I'm curious though, where did you get it from?

Brian2 said:

Lazarus parable (Luke 16.) Witch of Endor story (1Sam 28.)
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
JWs teaching about what death entails is completely against what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that we go out of existence after death. I give you verses. Can you show me where the Bible says we go out of existence after death?

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(Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.
(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.
(Ecclesiastes 9:10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.
(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.

Brian2 said:

Yon don't like 1Tim 6:14. That's understandable. It does not show an invisible Jesus.

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(1 Timothy 6:14) . . .to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
What are you talking about Brian?
"to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ"
It does not show an invisible Jesus?
Why? what does it say, to make you say that? Please explain.
Being vague does not help. It only makes one seem wishy washy.

Brian2 said:

1John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
I cannot say exactly what we will be. I can say that it will be a spiritual body, one that is controllable by our spirits. Note that this does not say a "spirit" body. The use of "spiritual" in the New Testament shows the meaning and that is not that it is made from spirit.
Yes our bodies will be resurrected (Romans 8:11,23) even if that mean a reconstruction of them from the elements.

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We?

Brian2 said:

The bodies will be transformed into the glorified resurrection bodies, the immortal and incorruptible bodies. If you deny the resurrection of Jesus as depicted in the gospels and twist the meaning of a couple of other verses and ignore the prophecies about the resurrection of Jesus with a body then you might end up with a JW view of the resurrection.
Why do you never answer the scriptures I put to you?

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I always answer to the scriptures You put to me.

You are the one denying Jesus being raised spirit.
Are you now changing your mind, and accepting the verses I referenced earlier?
(1 Timothy 3:16) . . .Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

(Philippians 3:20, 21) 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

You can't have it both ways. The scriptures say, he was raised up in glory. He received a glorious body by God.
Repeating...
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

You said, "This passage speaks of the same body that is buried being raised but changed in nature."
I am trying to understand what you are saying. My grandad is dead. His body eaten by worms.
Were you saying that a buried body is not eaten by worms but is changed?
Are you now saying it is not the same body that is changed?
Can you see that you are confusing your listeners?
Can you please answer, yes or no, and explain, please. You know I can't read minds right?
Does the same body change, yes or no? Explain please.

I think you answered the part about being changed to what.
So my next question on that, is... does the seed that is planted, change to the plant?
Paul said, "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So how do you arrive at the same body being changed? Or have you now changed your mind. Please give a detailed explanation, so I can understand this idea you are suggesting.

Brian2 said:

Matt 28:5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell His disciples, ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see Him.’ See, I have told you.”

That looks like just one of the scriptures I showed you. Think about it.
Where did He tell them He would rise from the dead, maybe in a number of places. The one that comes to mind is this one.

John 2:18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

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Sorry, Brian.
Your cards are not staying up.
Jesus was raised spirit. He manifested different physical bodies.
What are you finding hard to understand about that.
What you believe is not the important thing here.

Do we have to go through those scriptures again?
Okay. I don't have time to waste, so one final time.
Brian says
Angels are spirits, and they materialize physical bodies, and if Jesus was raised spirit, he could materialize physical bodies, but Jesus was not raised spirit, but rather he was born flesh, died flesh, and was raised up flesh.

Here is what the Bible says.
Angels are spirit. - Hebrews 1:7, 13
Angels materialize physical bodies. - Genesis 19:15, 16 ; Genesis 32:24-30 ; Judges 13:3, 6, 8-14 ; Zechariah 1:10, 11 ;
Matthew 28:2-7 ; Acts 10:30-33 ; Acts 11:13
Jesus was born a human, on earth. - John 1:14 ; Philippians 2:7, 8 ; Hebrews 2:14
Jesus died. - Isaiah 53:12 ; Romans 5:6-8 ; 1 Peter 3:18 ; 1 John 4:10
Jesus was resurrected as spirit, and he could materialize physical bodies. - 1 Timothy 3:16 ; 1 Peter 3:18, 19 ; 1 Corinthians 15:35-52

So according to the scriptures...
Angels are spirits, and they materialize physical bodies, and Jesus was raised spirit, he also could materialize physical bodies, and he did, but Jesus was was born flesh, died flesh, and was raised up spirit.

This is also what JWs believe.
I think it's clear to see that JWs beliefs are in harmony with the Bible. Not yours Brian.

nPeace said:

We could actually conclude our answer to the question of what is God's kingdom, on this point Ken. So as to be clear...
Shiloh - the Messiah is to rule on God's throne, in his kingdom.
Recall that the kings of Judah sat on Jehovah's throne - not his heavenly throne, but they represented his throne, or rulership, on earth.
(1 Kings 1:17) Your son Solomon will become king after me, and he is the one who will sit on my throne.’
Jesus himself said that he would sit on God's throne.

Even though David did not know the sacred secret, he was given prophetic utterances related to it. (Acts 2:30-36) 30 
God has appointed his chosen king - (Psalm 2:6-12) . . .“I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”

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So the King rules over the Kingdom, yes?

nPeace said:

In summary ...
The kingdom of God is a government set up by God, in the hands of the one whom God appointed ruler - Jesus Christ.
(Daniel 2:44) . . .“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

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That does not say that the Kingdom is a Government. The Government is part of the Kingdom true but the King rules over the Kingdom as Isa 9:7 says.
Isa 9:7.......He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.

nPeace said:

So no. It is nothing in the heart of men
Jesus Christ chose men to rule in that kingdom with him.
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
It is a little flock compared to the other sheep.
(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
The kingdom rules the earth - its domain - from heaven.
(2 Timothy 4:18) . . .The Lord will rescue me from every wicked work and will save me for his heavenly Kingdom. . . .
It will accomplish God's will, as stated in Ephesians 1:3-14

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Luke 22:28-30 is translated incorrectly in the NWT and should be that the Father has granted/bestowed a Kingdom on them. It should not make any difference really but with a group that wants to say that only a small percent of Christians are part of the covenant and who want to make the Covenant of Luke 22 into the New Covenant it is an error that should be pointed out.
Luke 12:32 actually shows that the Kingdom is given/granted to the little flock,,,,,,,,,,,as with a Will.
2Timothy4:18 does not show a Kingdom in heaven, it is speaking about a heavenly Kingdom (one OF heaven, not IN heaven)
Heavenly Jerusalem comes down to earth and God and the Lamb are there in Zion forever ruling over the Kingdom. (Isa 9:7) Why say "domain" when the domain IS the Kingdom.
Why change the plain definition of the word Kingdom and then try to make the Bible fit your ideas/ the GB ideas?
I guess it is because the WT wants to make only 144000 rule over all other Christians. That however is not in the Bible unless forced in by changes of definitions and some fast talk that ignores scriptures that show the contrary.

nPeace said:

Present your case with scripture, if you think you have one. I'm just seeing a complaining person.

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I wrote: ""Jesus is with the Church with the weeds till the end of the age. That would mean that Jesus is with the one you call the apostate one unless the JWs have weeds that bring in false teachings etc. Hmmm come to think of it.""

This was presented with scripture. Jesus said He would be with the Church till the end of the age and Jesus said that the weeds would be with the Church till the end of the age when the angels would gather them out for burning. What you call the apostate church is none other than the Church of Christ distinguished by the many weeds growing there alongside the wheat.

I wrote: ""It does not apply to the non anointed class who are not part of the Body of Christ, the Church.
Nobody has shown me where the Bible teaches 2 classes of Christians yet and nobody has shown me where it says that most of the New Testament is about the anointed class and does not apply to most JWs.
You really cannot call yourself a Christan Biblically if you are not in the New Covenant and are led by the Holy Spirit and are Born again. The Bible teaches that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is Born again and the GB say, no that is wrong. And you can see that the GB is wrong on such an important point, which makes the whole house of cards collapse but you do not complain, and are not allowed to complain.""

Surely it is you who should be showing me you case by scripture. The case that there are 2 classes of Christians. Not just scriptures where that interpretation is read into them, but actual scriptures where it tells us about 2 classes, one ruling over the other, one in the Covenant, one not, one in the Church, one not, one born again, one not etc
I give you scriptures that tell us that is not true and I get ignored. (1John 5:1, John 14:23, Romans 8: 8-17, John 3:3-5)
You are used to being told that those scriptures do not apply to you and that the Kingdom is only a small group of people and that the Kingdom is a Government. All this is said without scriptural back up by the GB ie by their own claimed authority, but forgetting what the GB says and we see that the everyone who believes and loves God is born of God and is in the Kingdom and is a child of God and heir with Jesus.

nPeace said:

Wow. sorry to hear that. I know how hurtful that can be.

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Maybe I'll get around to answering it again one day.

nPeace said:

160 results

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nPeace said:

? ...and I'm sure that's just the minimum. So that's a lie Brian. The WT denies no scripture.

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160 attempts to explain why "every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him" does not mean "every eye will see Him".
Luke 13:35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Matt 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
We will all see Him, it is written. How come the physical eyes do not see Him when it says "every eye" will see Him?
It gets complicated because the WT needs Jesus to be invisible and not be seen or the rising as an invisible spirit is blown. How many scriptures do they have to deny to save face? They deny that we see Jesus scriptures, they deny the bodily resurrection scriptures. This is how the GB treats the Bible when it's doctrines are at stake.

nPeace said:

We know the scriptures are true, but yes, we do deny that what you belief is true.


...Well all we have to do in a case like that is click the mouse button about twice on jw.org, to know that you are lying.
Every scripture can be found there... well probably without commentary on 0.000000000000001%.

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Commentary on those scriptures in the JW website does not mean that the GB denies what they say.

nPeace said:

All the scriptures are true to JWs Brian. You know this, so why ask?

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OK. It won't be more important however.
Are these scriptures true?
1Kings 8:26 And now, O God of Israel, please confirm what You promised to Your servant, my father David. 27 But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.
Acts 17:27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’

Just picking out these scriptures. If you deny that they are true then why do you want people to think that you believe all the scriptures are true. The WT wants to explain away those scriptures because it has doctrine it wants to protect.

Pete in Panama said:

There was a physicist I was watching on youtube a while back that was saying that the happiest times in his life was when he was learning something new that proved everything he'd worked on before was wrong. I can see that, the idea being that we're now moving faster than ever before on finding out what the truth is. Sure, we're talking religion not science here, but to me it's close enough. There've been many times I'll hear something contrary to a long standing belief & finding it logically consistent AND intuitively sound I'll go w/ it --usually by incorporating it into my network of understandings.

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Sorry I missed your post and am behind in answering posts, as per usual.
It can be scary for people to find things that are contrary to what they believe and so they fight against the new ideas but hopefully eventually new truth gets incorporated into the big picture and can fit in without too much of a problem.

Pete in Panama said:

What I was interested in was Matthew 24 where the disciples were asking about the time of the end. Of course, if that topic doesn't interest you then there's no point in pursuing it, only if ur curious.

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I'm curios. What is it you want to say?

Pete in Panama said:

The house I'm in I built w/ no thermal insulation as local temps are stuck between 15C & 30C. otoh I got a lot of sound insulation on the roof for the rain.

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15 is pretty low, but bearable I guess. It's great to hear the sound of the rain on the roof, unless it is deafening.

Pete in Panama said:

--and in this wonderful info age we live in, having a full Bible library is as easy as clicking a Bible website. My experience is that they're all pretty much the same & we can always go word for word w/ a Greek translation if need be but that's rare.

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When I think about when I was growing up without anything except a set or old encyclopaedias and a few other books. I guess these days fake information is a problem however at times, and we can all be susceptible to it even if we think not.

nPeace said:

Are you a Pharisee? That was a joke Ken.
Was Jesus not speaking to Pharisees?

Luke 17:21
New International Version
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Living Translation
You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is already among you.”

English Standard Version
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Berean Study Bible
Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Berean Literal Bible
nor will they say, 'Behold here,' or 'There.' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

New King James Version
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

New American Standard Bible
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NASB 1995
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NASB 1977
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Amplified Bible
nor will people say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For the kingdom of God is among you [because of My presence].”

Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, ‘See here! ’ or ‘There! ’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, 'Look here!' or 'There!' For you see, the kingdom of God is among you."

American Standard Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Neither do they say, 'Behold, here it is!' and 'Behold, from here to there!', for behold, the Kingdom of God is within some of you.”

Contemporary English Version
There is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you."

Douay-Rheims Bible
Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

English Revised Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Good News Translation
No one will say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!'; because the Kingdom of God is within you."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

International Standard Version
People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."

Literal Standard Version
nor will they say, Behold, here; or, Behold, there; for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

NET Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Heart English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here.' or, 'Look, there.' for the Kingdom of God is within you."

Weymouth New Testament
Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' --for the Kingdom of God is within you."

World English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

Young's Literal Translation
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

The more the merrier, right.
What is the kingdom of God, is a very important question then, isn't it?
So that's why we are examining the scriptures.
Let's continue to do so.

Consider that when Jesus came preaching the good news of the kingdom, it was his central message.
So it is expected that he spoke about it throughout his ministry.
He used illustrations in explaining it.
No one got it. His apostles got a bit, but it only became clearer in time. So we began with the question regarding the sacred secret of the kingdom.

Let's step back there and come forward.
I'm going to go fairly rapidly, so I am trusting you will keep up.

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Yes... it is a central issue. - and the more the merrier

Definition

1. within, inside
   1. within you i.e. in the midst of you
   2. within you i.e. your soul

In both cases that the word is used.... it is inside.

And, yes, there is much that Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God (vs. the Kingdom of Heaven)

nPeace said:

What God purposed to do after Adam sinned was kept secret but revealed later... to Christ's faithful apostles who put faith in him.
However, God began working out his purpose from Genesis 3:15.

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Other than those He revealed it too (such as Abraham) yes, as we remember that the very mystery was revealed to the ones who wrote it down but blinded and deaf for the ones who heard it and read it.

nPeace said:

He found a faithful man - Abraham - through whom the promised seed would come.
He was with Isaac - the one whom the seed would come.
He proved to be with Jacob, or Israel.
He put up with them to keep his promise, and fulfill his purpose.
The tribe of Judah was preserved from which the great ruler, whose kingdom would last, would come.
(Genesis 49:10) . . .The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
Cutting to the chase through to David (Matthew 1:1-6) we arrive at Matthew 1:18-23.
However, we want Luke's account, for the reason we are having this discussion.

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OK... but we are in agreement so far.

nPeace said:

(Luke 1:26-33) 26 In her sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house, and the name of the virgin was Mary. 28 And coming in, the angel said to her: “Greetings, you highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” 29 But she was deeply disturbed at his words and tried to understand what kind of greeting this might be. 30 So the angel said to her: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”

We could actually conclude our answer to the question of what is God's kingdom, on this point Ken. So as to be clear...
Shiloh - the Messiah is to rule on God's throne, in his kingdom.

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Yes, here it says "the throne of David" not the "throne of God" though he is seated on the earthly throne in representation of God's throne. Yes, is Kingdom will have no end but Jesus did say "Thy Kingdom come thy will be done "on earth" as it is in Heaven.

Caveat. Have you ever considered that the Kingdom of Heaven is one thing and the Kingdom of God is another?

Or to give it an example, the King of England was in England but England's kingdom extended to where the sun never set on England's Kingdom. Everything belonged to the king of England but he could institute a ruler in Jamaica under him. There was, in essence, a king for Jamaica but only at the please of the king of England. After all, Jesus is the King of kings.

nPeace said:

Recall that the kings of Judah sat on Jehovah's throne - not his heavenly throne, but they represented his throne, or rulership, on earth.

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Here you differentiated it but words are important. The kings sat on an earthly throne but in representation of God's Heavenly throne.

nPeace said:

(1 Kings 1:17) Your son Solomon will become king after me, and he is the one who will sit on my throne.’
Jesus himself said that he would sit on God's throne.

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I'm not sure how you went from Solomon's throne to God's throne. I don't think this was a prophetic moment but it was specifically about Solomon.

nPeace said:

Even though David did not know the sacred secret, he was given prophetic utterances related to it. (Acts 2:30-36) 30 
God has appointed his chosen king - (Psalm 2:6-12) . . .“I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”

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I'm not seeing that if we go by what is said.
Acts 2:"34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, "35 Until I make* thy foes thy footstool*

1) notice it says "at my right hand"... and not "on my throne".
2) notice that it says "thy foes" which are on earth and not Heaven
3) There is a Heavenly Zion but there is an earthly Zion which is also God's and is (will be) Holy because even the Temple is an earthly image of God's Heavenly Temple.
4) In installing "my king", the understanding is that it is on earth where it needs to be installed - not in Heaven where God is already ruling on the throne.

Can't address the rest at this time. If we run too fast, we can trip over the shoe-strings that haven't been tied up yet"

KenS said:

Have you ever considered that the Kingdom of Heaven is one thing and the Kingdom of God is another?

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Catholicism does.

Sorry-- carry on.

Brian2 said:

So the King rules over the Kingdom, yes?

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No. The king rules over his domain. King - ruler. Dom - domain.
Watch.

Hi @nPeace

nPeace said : "The use of the word arrival, still applies to being present."
Yes, if someone arrived, it refers to someone who is present.
If someone WILL arrive, it refers to a future presence after arrival.
If someone arrived in the past, but is gone, it refers to a presence in past tense.


nPeace said : "Never is the word used for coming."
While there is another specific word for "coming" (so there is no reason to use this word referring to someone who is "coming down the hill" in a spacial sense), it is used for an arrival, i.e. will arrive in the future, has now arrived, or a past arrival.
I'm not sure I understand why the nuance between the perfect sense of "he came" or "he arrived" is important to the discussion you and Brian2 (and perhaps others) are having.
Also, since παρουσια is used for “Advent”, such as the “advent” of spring (when spring "comes" or "arrives" or "is here"), the nuance is difficult to ferret out.

I honestly don’t care if one says, Spring has Arrived, or Spring came, or Spring is present though I think, in modern parlance, “Spring is present” implies it came or it arrived.

I didn’t look at much of your post because much of it was irrelevant to the specific point of nuance of meaning. I haven’t read much of the discussion you are having and so I don’t know why the nuance is important to you or Brian2 or any other poster. It simply didn’t strike my interest at this point. I was simply pointing out that both of you were correct, depending upon context.


I hope your journey is good nPeace.


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