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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews
- Thread starter Ehav4Ever
- Start date
What the Pharisees and Sadducees believed was just their interpretation of the Old Testament, that doesn't mean that it was what the Old Testament said. Isaiah 53:3-5 talks about the Messiah being the Savior. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Only God saves. None of us can save. Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Nehemiah 9:27
"You delivered them into the power of their adversaries who oppressed them. In their time of trouble they cried to You; You in heaven heard them, and in Your abundant compassion gave them saviors who saved them from the power of their adversaries."
That is different from personally calling someone a Savior or saying that they ultimately were the one who saved. Only God saves.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Apples and oranges.
Christian lawyers don't a have a Christian biblically national structure that dictates how they interact with the law they are certified for. I.e. a Christian lawyer serving in America is not the same as one serving in France. I.e. inheritance law in America is one thing and inheritance law is another in France. Both are derived from different sources.
Torath Mosheh lawyers living in the land of Israel in a Torah based society has the same mandates due to the Torah having national and personal mandates directly from the Torah on how the nation and the person are to operate. Thus, in the land of Israel in Torath Mosheh communities the inheritance laws come from the same source of Torah and Halakha. Even outside of Israel, in Torath Mosheh communities have the same Torah and Halakha as the source for inheritance laws thus when a Torath Mosheh Jewish lawyer is involved in a case of inheritance involving Torath Mosheh Jews the source is the exact same for all - Torath Mosheh.
See, apples and oranges.
The Siniatic Covenant stopped being practiced when Israel was exiled. Nobody in Israel punishes people for adultery or rebelling against their parents or practicing witchcraft or homosexuality.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
no, not really.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Greetings,
According to Christian standards a "Siniatic Covenant" may rest on punishing people for adultery or rebelling against their parents or practicing witchcraft or homosexuality.
This standard, that you mentioned, is not a Torath Mosheh standard. I.e. according to the Hebrew text of the Torah the agreement made between Hashem and Am Yisrael/Torath Mosheh Jews rests on the acceptance of the rulership of Hashem over the nation of Yisrael/Torath based Jews and the application of what is able to be performed per the sitaution.
For example, all of the Mitzvoth about how to manage the land of Israel wasn't applicable when the Israeli nation was in the midbar/wilderness before they arrived in the land of Israel. YET, the mitzvoth concerning the management of the land of Israel were given in a time when it couldn't yet be performed and thus was not applicable for that generation at that time.
Lastly, the Torath Mosheh standard is not to punish people as a first priority but instead to convince them to make corrections to their behavior, as a first priority, and only punish when they refuse and put themselves, others, and the nation in danger. That is from the Hebrew text of the Torah.
See how the OP got it right. Different standards for Christians than the standards of Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews.
Greetings,
According to Christian standards a "Siniatic Covenant" may rest on punishing people for adultery or rebelling against their parents or practicing witchcraft or homosexuality.
This standard, that you mentioned, is not a Torath Mosheh standard. I.e. according to the Hebrew text of the Torah the agreement made between Hashem and Am Yisrael/Torath Mosheh Jews rests on the acceptance of the rulership of Hashem over the nation of Yisrael/Torath based Jews and the application of what is able to be performed per the sitaution.
For example, all of the Mitzvoth about how to manage the land of Israel wasn't applicable when the Israeli nation was in the midbar/wilderness before they arrived in the land of Israel. YET, the mitzvoth concerning the management of the land of Israel were given in a time when it couldn't yet be performed and thus was not applicable for that generation at that time.
Lastly, the Torath Mosheh standard is not to punish people as a first priority but instead to convince them to make corrections to their behavior, as a first priority, and only punish when they refuse and put themselves, others, and the nation in danger. That is from the Hebrew text of the Torah.
See how the OP got it right. Different standards for Christians than the standards of Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews.
I believe that the beliefs that influence the idea that the New Testament is not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews comes from the opinions of people. What Are the Differences Between Judaism and Christianity?
rosends
Well-Known Member
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
As you yourself state "you beleive." Thus, your beleif is based on Christian standards. It is not like you read the Tanakh in Hebrew and came to that conclusion.
As you yourself state "you beleive." Thus, your beleif is based on Christian standards. It is not like you read the Tanakh in Hebrew and came to that conclusion.
There is historical evidence that supports the New Testament. Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? | GotQuestions.org
Even rabbis within Judaism believed that the Suffering Servant was the Messiah. The Suffering Servant of Isaiah – A Rabbinic Anthology | Jewish Awareness Ministries
As it happens, most Jews and secular researchers agree that Jesus really existed. Most also agree that the Jesus presented in the NT is a mythic character comprised of Christian traditions about the real Jesus and traditions, myths and theological views that evolved decades later.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Maybe as far Christians are concerned but not for Torath Mosheh Jews. Besides, if did you would have answered the historical questions I presented in previous threads a long time ago.
Hi @Harel13
1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE".
Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect." (post #555)
Clear responded : " There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception". I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement. This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism. (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Really. Quite a great number of Christians I've spoken with online hold some version or other of this view. I guess online Christians are all fringe. Who knew." (post #557)
Clear responded : ""Quite a great number" you've spoken with? No "exaggeration"?
If there have been "quite a great number" of Christians you have spoke with that believe "the Rabbinic Movement came out of nowhere", then will you give us merely 5 quotes that show Christians actually believe that "the Rabbinic Movement came out of 'nowhere'"? (post #561)
Harel13, You forgot to respond to your claim that it is a "Christian view" that "the Rabbinic movement came out of nowhere".
Can you give us just 5 quotes from the "quite a great number" of Christians you claim to have spoken with believed "the Rabbinic movement came out of nowhere"?
2) REGARDING THE CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT ABANDONED SOME OF THE EARLY TEXTUAL TRADITIONS THAT THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS RETAINED
Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions while many of the earliest Christians retained them.” (post #505)
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?" (post #555)
Clear responded : "The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to. I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.
What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement? (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Nothing comes to mind at the moment." (post #557)
Clear asked : "So, you are saying that the only tradition that the rabbinic movement retained regarding what God was doing before creating this earth was that he was creating and then destroying other worlds?
No other traditions regarding this time period?
Do you want to do a bit of research and confirm this point that this is the only Rabbinic tradition that was retained concerning this time period before we proceed or are you comfortable with this description of only a single Rabbinic tradition concerning this time period?" (post #559)
Harel13 said : "No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart." (post #560)
Harel13, "Exaggeration" and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not make this discussion more efficient nor more pleasant.
The world is not ending and you are not being attacked.
Be at peace. I simply asked you to try to confirm that this single tradition is the only tradition the Rabbinic Movement has regarding the pre-creation time period.
My claim is that there are early traditions which the rabbinic movement abandoned which early Judaism had.
I implied that the loss/abandonment of some of these traditions left the rabbinic movement with less religious insights.
I was simply trying to confirm your reply that the tradition that "God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them" was the single and only tradition concerning this time period that rabbinic Judaism retained.
3) REGARDING THE ORDER, FIRST A RABBINIC JEW CONFIRMS THE LACK OF TRADITIONS IN THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT AND SECONDLY WE COMPARE THIS LACK TO EARLIER TRADITIONS
Harel13 asked : "Where are you going with this? "
I am simply having you confirm to readers what traditions you admit you do not have.
If you confirm what traditions Rabbinic Judiam has (or lacks), it is easier to demonstrate traditions which the Rabbinic movement abandoned or no longer has.
It is also easier to demonstrate the value of such traditions and the effect the loss of traditions would have on the Rabbinic movement compared to other Jewish movements that retained such traditions.
Be patient, we will get to Jewish traditions the Rabbinic movement lacks.
For example,
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Satan/Lucifer/Devil and what he was doing before the world was created?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the motives and process by which Satan/Lucifer/the Devil became ill-disposed toward Adam or God or others?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding what the Messiah was doing before the world was created?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Adams spirit and it's condition before being placed into the Garden of Eden?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Gods motives in both planning and executing his plan to create an earth and populate it with mankind.
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of the place where God resides before the creation of the earth?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of spirits within mankind before the creation of the earth?
Where I am going is simply to have you confirm what traditions the rabbinic movement has and then I will compare that to early Jewish traditions the movement lacks and to compare the two sets of data and discuss the importance such traditions had (have) to religions that retained these early Jewish traditions and the effect of the abandonment or loss of traditions.
Clear
ακακακσεω
1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE".
Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect." (post #555)
Clear responded : " There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception". I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement. This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism. (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Really. Quite a great number of Christians I've spoken with online hold some version or other of this view. I guess online Christians are all fringe. Who knew." (post #557)
Clear responded : ""Quite a great number" you've spoken with? No "exaggeration"?
If there have been "quite a great number" of Christians you have spoke with that believe "the Rabbinic Movement came out of nowhere", then will you give us merely 5 quotes that show Christians actually believe that "the Rabbinic Movement came out of 'nowhere'"? (post #561)
Harel13, You forgot to respond to your claim that it is a "Christian view" that "the Rabbinic movement came out of nowhere".
Can you give us just 5 quotes from the "quite a great number" of Christians you claim to have spoken with believed "the Rabbinic movement came out of nowhere"?
2) REGARDING THE CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT ABANDONED SOME OF THE EARLY TEXTUAL TRADITIONS THAT THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS RETAINED
Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions while many of the earliest Christians retained them.” (post #505)
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?" (post #555)
Clear responded : "The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to. I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.
What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement? (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Nothing comes to mind at the moment." (post #557)
Clear asked : "So, you are saying that the only tradition that the rabbinic movement retained regarding what God was doing before creating this earth was that he was creating and then destroying other worlds?
No other traditions regarding this time period?
Do you want to do a bit of research and confirm this point that this is the only Rabbinic tradition that was retained concerning this time period before we proceed or are you comfortable with this description of only a single Rabbinic tradition concerning this time period?" (post #559)
Harel13 said : "No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart." (post #560)
Harel13, "Exaggeration" and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not make this discussion more efficient nor more pleasant.
The world is not ending and you are not being attacked.
Be at peace. I simply asked you to try to confirm that this single tradition is the only tradition the Rabbinic Movement has regarding the pre-creation time period.
My claim is that there are early traditions which the rabbinic movement abandoned which early Judaism had.
I implied that the loss/abandonment of some of these traditions left the rabbinic movement with less religious insights.
I was simply trying to confirm your reply that the tradition that "God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them" was the single and only tradition concerning this time period that rabbinic Judaism retained.
3) REGARDING THE ORDER, FIRST A RABBINIC JEW CONFIRMS THE LACK OF TRADITIONS IN THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT AND SECONDLY WE COMPARE THIS LACK TO EARLIER TRADITIONS
Harel13 asked : "Where are you going with this? "
I am simply having you confirm to readers what traditions you admit you do not have.
If you confirm what traditions Rabbinic Judiam has (or lacks), it is easier to demonstrate traditions which the Rabbinic movement abandoned or no longer has.
It is also easier to demonstrate the value of such traditions and the effect the loss of traditions would have on the Rabbinic movement compared to other Jewish movements that retained such traditions.
Be patient, we will get to Jewish traditions the Rabbinic movement lacks.
For example,
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Satan/Lucifer/Devil and what he was doing before the world was created?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the motives and process by which Satan/Lucifer/the Devil became ill-disposed toward Adam or God or others?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding what the Messiah was doing before the world was created?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Adams spirit and it's condition before being placed into the Garden of Eden?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Gods motives in both planning and executing his plan to create an earth and populate it with mankind.
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of the place where God resides before the creation of the earth?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of spirits within mankind before the creation of the earth?
Where I am going is simply to have you confirm what traditions the rabbinic movement has and then I will compare that to early Jewish traditions the movement lacks and to compare the two sets of data and discuss the importance such traditions had (have) to religions that retained these early Jewish traditions and the effect of the abandonment or loss of traditions.
Clear
ακακακσεω
Last edited:
I did respond. See here.
You make an assumption that I'm yelling at the screen and typing in anger. I'm not.
I did not confirm this nor did I imply it.
I was reminded earlier by another poster of the midrash that says that Hashem wrote the Torah prior to the creation, so that's another tradition. Once again, the fact that at this point I have brought two traditions does not mean in any way that these are the only two traditions.
Yes. He didn't exist. He's an angel created along with the other angels on the second day of creation.
No. Angels do what God tells them to do.
The concept of the Mashiach existed before the creation. Not the Mashiach himself. Repentance is another concept that existed before the creation.
No tradition that differentiates between Adam prior to being put in the Garden and after being put in the Garden but before the sin comes to mind. This does not mean that there aren't any.
Yes.
Yes.
What's the difference between those spirits prior to creation and after creation?
POST ONE OF TWO
Hi @Harel13
1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE".
Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect." (post #555)
Clear responded : " There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception". I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement. This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism. (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Really. Quite a great number of Christians I've spoken with online hold some version or other of this view. I guess online Christians are all fringe. Who knew." (post #557)
Clear responded : ""Quite a great number" you've spoken with? No "exaggeration"?
If there have been "quite a great number" of Christians you have spoke with that believe "the Rabbinic Movement came out of nowhere", then will you give us merely 5 quotes that show Christians actually believe that "the Rabbinic Movement came out of 'nowhere'"? (post #561)
Since you cannot "quote" other users on the forum, perhaps you could give us 5 quotes from a google search that shows it is a "Christian view" that "the rabbinic movement came out of nowhere".
Can you do this so that you can support your claim that this is a "Christian view" of the rabbinic movement? I am Christian and do not believe this nor have I ever heard of this but you say it is a Christian view and you've heard it "quite a great number of times". One of us is incorrect.
2) REGARDING THE CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT ABANDONED SOME OF THE EARLY TEXTUAL TRADITIONS THAT THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS RETAINED
Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions while many of the earliest Christians retained them.” (post #505)
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?" (post #555)
Clear responded : "The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to. I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.
What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement? (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Nothing comes to mind at the moment." (post #557)
Clear asked : "So, you are saying that the only tradition that the rabbinic movement retained regarding what God was doing before creating this earth was that he was creating and then destroying other worlds?
No other traditions regarding this time period?
Do you want to do a bit of research and confirm this point that this is the only Rabbinic tradition that was retained concerning this time period before we proceed or are you comfortable with this description of only a single Rabbinic tradition concerning this time period?" (post #559)
Harel13 said : "No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart." (post #560)
Clear said : "Harel13, "Exaggeration" and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not make this discussion more efficient nor more pleasant.
The world is not ending and you are not being attacked.
Be at peace. I simply asked you to try to confirm that this single tradition is the only tradition the Rabbinic Movement has regarding the pre-creation time period.
My claim is that there are early traditions which the rabbinic movement abandoned which early Judaism had.
I implied that the loss/abandonment of some of these traditions left the rabbinic movement with less religious insights.
I was simply trying to confirm your reply that the tradition that "God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them" was the single and only tradition concerning this time period that rabbinic Judaism retained. (post #596)
Harel13 said : “Harel13 said : "No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart." (post #560)
Clear responded : “Harel13, "Exaggeration" and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not make this discussion more efficient nor more pleasant.
The world is not ending and you are not being attacked.
Be at peace. I simply asked you to try to confirm that this single tradition is the only tradition the Rabbinic Movement has regarding the pre-creation time period. (post #596)
harel13 responded : “You make an assumption that I'm yelling at the screen and typing in anger. I'm not.” (post #597)
This last claim of yours is also incorrect. Of course I am not making that assumption.
I simply think “exaggeration” and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not be helpful to our discussion.
.POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
Hi @Harel13
1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE".
Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548)
Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”.
Like most movements, Judaism had schisms.
The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of earlier Judaism.
After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple it became more Dominant, perhaps.
But a schism nonetheless." (post #554)
Harel 13 responded : "I exaggerated a bit for effect." (post #555)
Clear responded : " There is a difference between an "exaggeration" and a "deception". I never claimed the modern Jewish Rabbinic Movement "came out of nowhere".
Your claim that this is a "Christian view" is also a deceptive statement. This is not how Christianity typically views Rabbinic Judaism. (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Really. Quite a great number of Christians I've spoken with online hold some version or other of this view. I guess online Christians are all fringe. Who knew." (post #557)
Clear responded : ""Quite a great number" you've spoken with? No "exaggeration"?
If there have been "quite a great number" of Christians you have spoke with that believe "the Rabbinic Movement came out of nowhere", then will you give us merely 5 quotes that show Christians actually believe that "the Rabbinic Movement came out of 'nowhere'"? (post #561)
Since you cannot "quote" other users on the forum, perhaps you could give us 5 quotes from a google search that shows it is a "Christian view" that "the rabbinic movement came out of nowhere".
Can you do this so that you can support your claim that this is a "Christian view" of the rabbinic movement? I am Christian and do not believe this nor have I ever heard of this but you say it is a Christian view and you've heard it "quite a great number of times". One of us is incorrect.
2) REGARDING THE CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT ABANDONED SOME OF THE EARLY TEXTUAL TRADITIONS THAT THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS RETAINED
Clear claimed “The Rabbinic movement abandoned some of their early textual traditions while many of the earliest Christians retained them.” (post #505)
Harel13 said : “Evidence?” (post #548)
Clear asked : "Harel13, describe what your Judaism teaches about what God was doing before he began to create this earth and lets look at those traditions first." (post # 554)
Harel13 responded : "One midrash says that God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them. What'd your god do, create a "word"?" (post #555)
Clear responded : "The ancient Christian God was Jehovah of the Old Testament. And so, yes, before he created this world, he had other creations such as the several hundred words you referred to. I think this is a good start in examining Rabbinic Traditions and which ones they have and which they abandoned.
What else was God doing before creation besides creating other worlds in the traditions of the Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish movement? (post #556)
Harel13 responded : "Nothing comes to mind at the moment." (post #557)
Clear asked : "So, you are saying that the only tradition that the rabbinic movement retained regarding what God was doing before creating this earth was that he was creating and then destroying other worlds?
No other traditions regarding this time period?
Do you want to do a bit of research and confirm this point that this is the only Rabbinic tradition that was retained concerning this time period before we proceed or are you comfortable with this description of only a single Rabbinic tradition concerning this time period?" (post #559)
Harel13 said : "No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart." (post #560)
Clear said : "Harel13, "Exaggeration" and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not make this discussion more efficient nor more pleasant.
The world is not ending and you are not being attacked.
Be at peace. I simply asked you to try to confirm that this single tradition is the only tradition the Rabbinic Movement has regarding the pre-creation time period.
My claim is that there are early traditions which the rabbinic movement abandoned which early Judaism had.
I implied that the loss/abandonment of some of these traditions left the rabbinic movement with less religious insights.
I was simply trying to confirm your reply that the tradition that "God created several hundred worlds and destroyed them" was the single and only tradition concerning this time period that rabbinic Judaism retained. (post #596)
Harel13 said : “Harel13 said : "No. I said that nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't realize I was talking to Clear, the human supercomputer who remembers every single source in the Christian compendium by heart." (post #560)
Clear responded : “Harel13, "Exaggeration" and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not make this discussion more efficient nor more pleasant.
The world is not ending and you are not being attacked.
Be at peace. I simply asked you to try to confirm that this single tradition is the only tradition the Rabbinic Movement has regarding the pre-creation time period. (post #596)
harel13 responded : “You make an assumption that I'm yelling at the screen and typing in anger. I'm not.” (post #597)
This last claim of yours is also incorrect. Of course I am not making that assumption.
I simply think “exaggeration” and Sarcasm and ad hominems will not be helpful to our discussion.
.POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
Last edited:
POST TWO OF TWO
3) REGARDING THE ORDER, FIRST A RABBINIC JEW CONFIRMS THE LACK OF TRADITIONS IN THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT AND SECONDLY WE COMPARE THIS LACK TO EARLIER TRADITIONS
Harel13 asked : "Where are you going with this? "
I am simply having you confirm to readers what traditions you admit you do not have.
If you confirm what traditions Rabbinic Judiam has (or lacks), it is easier to demonstrate traditions which the Rabbinic movement abandoned or no longer has.
It is also easier to demonstrate the value of such traditions and the effect the loss of traditions would have on the Rabbinic movement compared to other Jewish movements that retained such traditions.
Be patient, we will get to Jewish traditions the Rabbinic movement lacks.
Harel12 pointed out : "I was reminded earlier by another poster of the midrash that says that Hashem wrote the Torah prior to the creation, so that's another tradition"
Good. We now have two traditions that we know of that the Rabbinic movement has regarding the time period before creation of the earth.
For example,
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Satan/Lucifer/Devil and what he was doing before the world was created?
Harel13 responded :Yes. He didn't exist. He's an angel created along with the other angels on the second day of creation. (post #597)
OK, so the rabbinic movement does not have a single tradition regarding Satan BEFORE creation nor does it have any tradition regarding other angels BEFORE creation.
But instead, the Rabbinic movement has a tradition that God created Satan on the second day of Creation AND that was when the other angels were created.
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the motives and process by which Satan/Lucifer/the Devil became ill-disposed toward Adam or God or others?
Harel13 responded : "No. Angels do what God tells them to do."
OK, so the rabbinic movement does not have a single tradition regarding Satan's motives or a process by which the Devil became ill-disposed torward Adam or God or others based on his own characteristics, but instead, Satan does just as other angels, "what God tells them to do".
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding what the Messiah was doing before the world was created?"
Harel13 responded : "The concept of the Mashiach existed before the creation. Not the Mashiach himself. Repentance is another concept that existed before the creation.
OK, good. So the rabbinic movement does have a tradition regarding the concept of a Messiah but the Rabbinic movement does NOT have a tradition regarding the existence of the Messiah nor of the Messiahs actions before the creation of the earth. And, the Rabbinic movement does have a tradition that repentance was going to be part of mortal conditions prior to the creation of the earth.
Clear asked : Does "the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Adams spirit and it's condition before being placed into the Garden of Eden?
Harel13 responded : "No tradition that differentiates between Adam prior to being put in the Garden and after being put in the Garden but before the sin comes to mind. This does not mean that there aren't any."
OK, good. So I can assume that there are no traditions in rabbinic Judaism regarding interactions between Satan and Adam before they met in the Garden. Is this correct?
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Gods motives in both planning and executing his plan to create an earth and populate it with mankind?
Harel13 responded : "Yes"
OK, good. Can you describe these traditions that the Rabbinic movement has?. What was Gods original motive in executing his plan to create this earth and to populate it with mankind inside the Rabbinic movement? If you have a reference that would be helpful.
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of the place where God resides before the creation of the earth?
Harel13 said "Yes"
OK, very good. Can you describe these traditions that the Rabbinic movement has?. Can you describe the nature of the place where God resided before the creation of the earth?
Again, if you have a reference that would be helpful.
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of spirits within mankind before the creation of the earth?
Harel asked for clarification : "What's the difference between those spirits prior to creation and after creation?
In the most basic sense, a spirit prior to creation has no body and a spirit that enters mortality that was created is born into a body.
Does the Rabbinic movement have any tradition regarding the existence of spirits of mankind existing prior to the physical creation and if so, can you describe anything about their characteristics and conditions?
Where I am going is simply to have you confirm what traditions the rabbinic movement has and then I will compare that to early Jewish traditions the movement lacks and to compare the two sets of data and discuss the importance such traditions had (have) to religions that retained these early Jewish traditions and the effect of the abandonment or loss of traditions.
I understand my questions are bothersome, but if you are an adherent to the Rabbinic Movement, then you are able to confirm the presence or lack of specific sets of traditions within the Rabbinic movement. I understand this sort of questioning may be bothersome and so I will stop asking about other areas of traditions and merely clarify the ones we've already identified. Thank you for your patience. Please correct any incorrect assumptions regarding my wording of your responses regarding your traditions so that the comparisons are more accurate.
Clear
ακνεειτζω
3) REGARDING THE ORDER, FIRST A RABBINIC JEW CONFIRMS THE LACK OF TRADITIONS IN THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT AND SECONDLY WE COMPARE THIS LACK TO EARLIER TRADITIONS
Harel13 asked : "Where are you going with this? "
I am simply having you confirm to readers what traditions you admit you do not have.
If you confirm what traditions Rabbinic Judiam has (or lacks), it is easier to demonstrate traditions which the Rabbinic movement abandoned or no longer has.
It is also easier to demonstrate the value of such traditions and the effect the loss of traditions would have on the Rabbinic movement compared to other Jewish movements that retained such traditions.
Be patient, we will get to Jewish traditions the Rabbinic movement lacks.
Harel12 pointed out : "I was reminded earlier by another poster of the midrash that says that Hashem wrote the Torah prior to the creation, so that's another tradition"
Good. We now have two traditions that we know of that the Rabbinic movement has regarding the time period before creation of the earth.
For example,
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Satan/Lucifer/Devil and what he was doing before the world was created?
Harel13 responded :Yes. He didn't exist. He's an angel created along with the other angels on the second day of creation. (post #597)
OK, so the rabbinic movement does not have a single tradition regarding Satan BEFORE creation nor does it have any tradition regarding other angels BEFORE creation.
But instead, the Rabbinic movement has a tradition that God created Satan on the second day of Creation AND that was when the other angels were created.
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the motives and process by which Satan/Lucifer/the Devil became ill-disposed toward Adam or God or others?
Harel13 responded : "No. Angels do what God tells them to do."
OK, so the rabbinic movement does not have a single tradition regarding Satan's motives or a process by which the Devil became ill-disposed torward Adam or God or others based on his own characteristics, but instead, Satan does just as other angels, "what God tells them to do".
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding what the Messiah was doing before the world was created?"
Harel13 responded : "The concept of the Mashiach existed before the creation. Not the Mashiach himself. Repentance is another concept that existed before the creation.
OK, good. So the rabbinic movement does have a tradition regarding the concept of a Messiah but the Rabbinic movement does NOT have a tradition regarding the existence of the Messiah nor of the Messiahs actions before the creation of the earth. And, the Rabbinic movement does have a tradition that repentance was going to be part of mortal conditions prior to the creation of the earth.
Clear asked : Does "the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Adams spirit and it's condition before being placed into the Garden of Eden?
Harel13 responded : "No tradition that differentiates between Adam prior to being put in the Garden and after being put in the Garden but before the sin comes to mind. This does not mean that there aren't any."
OK, good. So I can assume that there are no traditions in rabbinic Judaism regarding interactions between Satan and Adam before they met in the Garden. Is this correct?
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Gods motives in both planning and executing his plan to create an earth and populate it with mankind?
Harel13 responded : "Yes"
OK, good. Can you describe these traditions that the Rabbinic movement has?. What was Gods original motive in executing his plan to create this earth and to populate it with mankind inside the Rabbinic movement? If you have a reference that would be helpful.
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of the place where God resides before the creation of the earth?
Harel13 said "Yes"
OK, very good. Can you describe these traditions that the Rabbinic movement has?. Can you describe the nature of the place where God resided before the creation of the earth?
Again, if you have a reference that would be helpful.
Clear asked : "Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of spirits within mankind before the creation of the earth?
Harel asked for clarification : "What's the difference between those spirits prior to creation and after creation?
In the most basic sense, a spirit prior to creation has no body and a spirit that enters mortality that was created is born into a body.
Does the Rabbinic movement have any tradition regarding the existence of spirits of mankind existing prior to the physical creation and if so, can you describe anything about their characteristics and conditions?
Where I am going is simply to have you confirm what traditions the rabbinic movement has and then I will compare that to early Jewish traditions the movement lacks and to compare the two sets of data and discuss the importance such traditions had (have) to religions that retained these early Jewish traditions and the effect of the abandonment or loss of traditions.
I understand my questions are bothersome, but if you are an adherent to the Rabbinic Movement, then you are able to confirm the presence or lack of specific sets of traditions within the Rabbinic movement. I understand this sort of questioning may be bothersome and so I will stop asking about other areas of traditions and merely clarify the ones we've already identified. Thank you for your patience. Please correct any incorrect assumptions regarding my wording of your responses regarding your traditions so that the comparisons are more accurate.
Clear
ακνεειτζω
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rosends
Well-Known Member
So you don't understand Jewish commentary. Big shock.
Next?