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Christians Only: Why Easter is NOT the Way to Honor Christ.

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don’t care to talk about it, because it is very sacred to me, and, judging by your assumption of my “embarrassment” (which is false; I am not embarrassed in the least by who I am, although you believe that I must be, since I don’t believe like you), I feel as though I have to protect it from your ridicule of it. I will not open my inner self to that violence. Period.

Oh dear......IOW you feel confident that your beliefs would be open to ridicule....? How sad. Do you believe that it could be ridiculed because its not from the Bible, like most Catholic beliefs?
If you are proud of your beliefs as part of the Catholic faith, why are you hiding behind the pretense of not 'opening your inner self to violence'? "Violence"??? Seriously? You fear what others may think of how your faith has "progressed"? Were the apostles afraid of ridicule? (Luke 6:22-23) Was Noah? How often was Jesus mocked?

By being "annoyingly progressive" (by your own admission) does that mean that your beliefs have run ahead of your church's doctrines? Does it mean that you now have beliefs that your church does not share? How do they feel about that?
We are in a "Same Faith Debate" forum and I would like to debate you on your beliefs. I have offered so many opportunities for you to share and defend what you believe, but once again you have shut it all down.

What do the posted pictures show to those who are not Catholic? How can you not defend these things if they are inaccurate? If the church says that it doesn't worship the sun and we see plainly that the sun is displayed on their objects of worship (which they were told NOT to make) let's hear your defense. I'm sure that there are others hear who would like to hear how you justify it.

I will say this: you disparage anything outside your understanding of the Faith as “pagan.” That word merely means “on the fringes.”

Dictionary definition of Pagan....." heathen . . . .especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)"
It doesn't mean "on the fringes" at all, but those who are not believing in accordance with the accepted faith....so guess what sojourner? Your beliefs are not those of a "fringe dweller", if you believe things that are outside of what original Christianity taught and it can be proven that you do....your beliefs are by definition "pagan" or a 'pagan adoption'. The RCC is full of them. Easter is just one.

I am happy to discuss any of my beliefs and the scriptures that uphold them.....I am sorry that you are in fear that your beliefs may be open to ridicule. It makes people suspicious of those who hide what they are. (Psalm 26:4)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Oh dear......IOW you feel confident that your beliefs would be open to ridicule....? How sad. Do you believe that it could be ridiculed because its not from the Bible, like most Catholic beliefs?
If you are proud of your beliefs as part of the Catholic faith, why are you hiding behind the pretense of not 'opening your inner self to violence'? "Violence"??? Seriously? You fear what others may think of how your faith has "progressed"? Were the apostles afraid of ridicule? (Luke 6:22-23) Was Noah? How often was Jesus mocked?

By being "annoyingly progressive" (by your own admission) does that mean that your beliefs have run ahead of your church's doctrines? Does it mean that you now have beliefs that your church does not share? How do they feel about that?
We are in a "Same Faith Debate" forum and I would like to debate you on your beliefs. I have offered so many opportunities for you to share and defend what you believe, but once again you have shut it all down.

What do the posted pictures show to those who are not Catholic? How can you not defend these things if they are inaccurate? If the church says that it doesn't worship the sun and we see plainly that the sun is displayed on their objects of worship (which they were told NOT to make) let's hear your defense. I'm sure that there are others hear who would like to hear how you justify it.



Dictionary definition of Pagan....." heathen . . . .especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)"
It doesn't mean "on the fringes" at all, but those who are not believing in accordance with the accepted faith....so guess what sojourner? Your beliefs are not those of a "fringe dweller", if you believe things that are outside of what original Christianity taught and it can be proven that you do....your beliefs are by definition "pagan" or a 'pagan adoption'. The RCC is full of them. Easter is just one.

I am happy to discuss any of my beliefs and the scriptures that uphold them.....I am sorry that you are in fear that your beliefs may be open to ridicule. It makes people suspicious of those who hide what they are. (Psalm 26:4)
You just proved my point. I’m afraid of nothing; I don’t want my spiritual practices smeared by assumptions that aren’t true.

You pride yourself on your gospeling. You don’t do that by gaslighting people. Jesus didn’t gaslight others. If you feel you have to do that in order to “win” someone over, then you’re preaching a thin and weak faith.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The sun is a source of light, and the symbols using light permeate the NT to the point that there are 110 references to it, and they can be found here: Bible, Revised Standard Version

Thus, we as Catholics do not worship the sun as we've posted many times before with proof from links, including from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", and yet some JW's just revert back to same old lies over and over again. And then when it's pointed out that they are lying with the proofs being quoted and linked, they then get angry.:shrug:

Yep, lying in the name "Jehovah"-- ain't that truly a sham and a shame.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You just proved my point. I’m afraid of nothing; I don’t want my spiritual practices smeared by assumptions that aren’t true.
Then prove me wrong. Defend what you believe from the scriptures. I cannot see where you ever have. Your church says one thing, but does the opposite....it always has. There was never anything “Christian” about its beliefs and practices.....and apparently you have gone further than even they did. Please share the basis for this.

You don’t do that by gaslighting people. Jesus didn’t gaslight others. If you feel you have to do that in order to “win” someone over, then you’re preaching a thin and weak faith.
Jesus often used questions to get his audience to reason on their own beliefs. Was that gaslighting? Are you afraid of what others will think of your beliefs, especially if they do not align with the church you identify as your own. Are you really just a “fringe dweller”?

Remember that this is in “Same Faith Debates”. So let’s debate by laying our cards clearly on the table.....your credentials mean nothing here....your words and ideas, backed up by the Bible, do.

Ridicule is what what you said you feared, but why is fear keeping you from backing up your words? Jesus and his apostles had to contend with lots of ridicule and opposition and so did many of God’s pre-Christian servants......but they never used it as an excuse to stop sharing what they believed was true and the reasons for it.....to me, yours is an example of thin and weak faith. Where is the courage of your convictions?

Could your reluctance to state the origins of your beliefs simply be an excuse not to confront your own doubts. I have highlighted your misinterpretations more times than I can count, showing how often you state things that are patently untrue, so either state your case and the basis for it, or question why you are in a debate forum.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Then prove me wrong. Defend what you believe from the scriptures. I cannot see where you ever have. Your church says one thing, but does the opposite....it always has. There was never anything “Christian” about its beliefs and practices.....and apparently you have gone further than even they did. Please share the basis for this.


Jesus often used questions to get his audience to reason on their own beliefs. Was that gaslighting? Are you afraid of what others will think of your beliefs, especially if they do not align with the church you identify as your own. Are you really just a “fringe dweller”?

Remember that this is in “Same Faith Debates”. So let’s debate by laying our cards clearly on the table.....your credentials mean nothing here....your words and ideas, backed up by the Bible, do.

Ridicule is what what you said you feared, but why is fear keeping you from backing up your words? Jesus and his apostles had to contend with lots of ridicule and opposition and so did many of God’s pre-Christian servants......but they never used it as an excuse to stop sharing what they believed was true and the reasons for it.....to me, yours is an example of thin and weak faith. Where is the courage of your convictions?

Could your reluctance to state the origins of your beliefs simply be an excuse not to confront your own doubts. I have highlighted your misinterpretations more times than I can count, showing how often you state things that are patently untrue, so either state your case and the basis for it, or question why you are in a debate forum.
You didn’t read a word. I CLEARLY said that fear was not a motivator. You keep bringing it up though. That’s gaslighting.

Fortunately, I don’t buy the heresy of sola scriptura, so I’m not limited to just the Bible.

And BTW, I’m not Roman Catholic.

You’re wrong, wrong, wrong in your assumptions and in your baiting.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You didn’t read a word. I CLEARLY said that fear was not a motivator. You keep bringing it up though. That’s gaslighting.

Fortunately, I don’t buy the heresy of sola scriptura, so I’m not limited to just the Bible.

And BTW, I’m not Roman Catholic.

You’re wrong, wrong, wrong in your assumptions and in your baiting.
You are so secretive...is it any wonder I am left to assume? Was Jesus limited to sola scriptura? He constantly referenced the scriptures to back up his teachings and to answer his opposers.

The “baiting” is an invitation for you to back up what you believe that is NOT from the Bible, and to provide your sources. Why are they not open to scrutiny?

Cut the drama.....if you can’t handle ridicule, then can you really call yourself a Christian based on their first century record?

If you are not Roman Catholic, then why have your posts supported the beliefs of that apostate institution? They are not guided by “sola scriptura” either.....for obvious reasons I think.....Why do you think there was a “Reformation”? What beliefs were discarded by that religious revolution?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You are so secretive...is it any wonder I am left to assume? Was Jesus limited to sola scriptura? He constantly referenced the scriptures to back up his teachings and to answer his opposers.

The “baiting” is an invitation for you to back up what you believe that is NOT from the Bible, and to provide your sources. Why are they not open to scrutiny?

Cut the drama.....if you can’t handle ridicule, then can you really call yourself a Christian based on their first century record?

If you are not Roman Catholic, then why have your posts supported the beliefs of that apostate institution? They are not guided by “sola scriptura” either.....for obvious reasons I think.....Why do you think there was a “Reformation”? What beliefs were discarded by that religious revolution?
Because, O Best Beloved, unlike you, I practice a welcoming and inclusive Christianity rather than the judgmental and exclusive brand you practice. The RCs are trusted members of the Christian household, as are Protestants and independents and LDS. Those of other religious expressions are also part of the spiritual family. Righteousness isn’t about right or wrong, it’s about intent to love and be loved.

I told you before, it has nothing to do with secrecy, embarrassment or fear. It has to do with establishing good boundaries between me and those whom I believe to be dangerous to my spiritual well-being. Stop gaslighting.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Cut the drama.....if you can’t handle ridicule, then can you really call yourself a Christian based on their first century record?
This ^^^ This right here is gaslighting. It calls my integrity/critical thinking/emotional stability into question. It intimates that there’s something “wrong” with me. That’s not debate. It’s gaslighting.

“If I can’t handle ridicule...” Since when did “ridicule” become a tool for debate? Ridicule of the sort you mention here is generally known as an ad hominem attack. More gaslighting: “...can’t handle the ridicule...”. It’s not that I “can’t handle it”; it’s that I choose not to subject my spiritual life to this kind of underhanded ness masquerading as sincere questioning.

And: “Can I really call myself a Christian...” More gaslighting. There are positions and issues worth putting one’s integrity and life on the line. An internet debate with a JW seeking entertainment at my expense isn’t one of them. i didn’t start the “drama,” but I’m putting a stop to it. If you want to debate doctrine or interpretations, or theology, great. Otherwise, stop prying.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This ^^^ This right here is gaslighting. It calls my integrity/critical thinking/emotional stability into question. It intimates that there’s something “wrong” with me. That’s not debate. It’s gaslighting.
Have you ever called your own integrity/critical thinking/emotional stability into question to yourself sojourner? Surely you have to have some scriptural grounds to make the statements that you do? Otherwise, why are you here calling my beliefs into question when you can’t substantiate your own? Have I hit a nerve?

If you want to debate doctrine or interpretations, or theology, great. Otherwise, stop prying.
You want to debate doctrine or interpretations?.....any day, but with sources and references, not just your own personal interpretation of what you want to believe based on some credentials that you claim to have. They mean nothing here.
If what you post is out of line with what Jesus taught, I will call you out on it as I have on many occasions.

Because, O Best Beloved, unlike you, I practice a welcoming and inclusive Christianity rather than the judgmental and exclusive brand you practice.
Condescension duly noted....

But let’s see....what “brand” of the Jewish faith did Jesus practice? Was he loving and inclusive of the Pharisees or the Sadducees? Didn’t they claim to worship the same God? Were they not different “branches” of his own faith? Did he have a good thing to say about those who were supposed to be teachers of his own faith? (Matthew 23)

On what basis was Jesus “inclusive” of those whom he accepted as his disciples? When he preached to those “lost sheep” to whom he was sent, on what basis did he welcome them? Wasn’t it on the basis of their repentance? Wasn’t it a requirement for Jews to first undergo John’s baptism in symbol of that repentance? And didn’t these ones then have to undergo Christian baptism to publicly demonstrate their dedication to God and their resolve to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ from that day forward?

Do you see where your arguments always fall short of what the Bible says...no wonder you prefer to go non-sola scriptura.....scripture disagrees with practically everything you say....so where do your ideas come from? Yourself?

I completely understand why you don’t want to back up your empty statements with scripture.

I told you before, it has nothing to do with secrecy, embarrassment or fear. It has to do with establishing good boundaries between me and those whom I believe to be dangerous to my spiritual well-being.
Distancing yourself from legitimate criticism is not protecting your faith if you cannot substantiate anything you say. Your spiritual well-being is already under threat if it can’t stand up to scrutiny. It’s good for us.....it makes us confront what we believe and ask the same questions of ourselves as we ask of others.

Stop gaslighting.
Legitimate questions are part of debating....stop whining for Pete’s sake.....state your case with references to your sources.....how hard is it? You make completely unsubstantiated statements and when you are challenged, you cry foul....
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Legitimate questions are part of debating....stop whining for Pete’s sake.....state your case with references to your sources.....how hard is it? You make completely unsubstantiated statements and when you are challenged, you cry foul....
You’re not asking legitimate questions. You’re gaslighting. Again.

You’re not challenging stances, you’re goading emotional responses. Do you know how to legitimately debate, or is this sort of flim-flam all you got? It’s embarrassing really. I’m not answering any of your questions until you stop with the personal attacks dressed up as righteousness.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I’m not answering any of your questions until you stop with the personal attacks dressed up as righteousness.

tongue0011.gif
Really?

Won't answer.....or can't?
indifferent0025.gif
Good grief....

Please cut the drama and just answer the questions.....or are you stalling now?
This thread was originally about Easter....but its grown a bit to encompass so much more, so how about some answers?

Here they are again.....just so you can see that they are legitimate questions....none of which you have adequately addressed.

Did Jesus bow to the scholastic education of the Pharisees? Why did he personally chose uneducated men to become the foundations of his kingdom? Nothing to do with the fact that the religious education offered by the Pharisees was useless to Jesus because they had completely lost the plot, was it?

Where is Jesus in the pictures I posted?
NO images were to be used in worship...second commandment...and yet the Catholic church is full of them. Do you support this? Was the second commandment somehow invalidated by the church with God's permission?

Where does the Bible ever call Mary "the Mother of God"? Where is she featured throughout Jesus ministry?
The truth is, she hardly rates a mention. In your inclusiveness, do you support the RC church's beliefs about Mary's adoration and her intercessory role?

What do you think Jesus was teaching in the parable of the wheat and the weeds?...it was about the future of Christianity.....who were the 'sons of the Kingdom' sown by Christ? What were the seeds sown by the devil and where did he plant them? What is the "harvest" that sees the devil's seed destroyed by the appointed reapers?
Are you familiar with the "weed" that Jesus was speaking about? "Bearded darnel" is a blight to farmers in the Middle East because they call it "wheat's evil twin"...can you guess why?

What do the posted pictures show to those who are not Catholic? How can you not defend these things if they are inaccurate? If the church says that it doesn't worship the sun, and yet we see plainly that the sun is displayed on their objects of worship (which, incidentally, they were told NOT to make) let's hear your defense. The principle deity of ancient Rome was its sun god. Was that just a co-incidence? Was moving the Sabbath to "Sun"day also just a co-incidence, since the pagans already observed it?

What “brand” of the Jewish faith did Jesus practice? Was he loving and inclusive of the Pharisees or the Sadducees? Didn’t they claim to worship the same God? Were they not different “branches” of his own faith? Did he have a good thing to say about those who were supposed to be teachers of his own faith? (Matthew 23)

On what basis was Jesus “inclusive” of those whom he accepted as his disciples? When he preached to those “lost sheep” to whom he was sent, on what basis did he welcome them? Wasn’t it on the basis of their repentance? Wasn’t it a requirement for Jews to first undergo John’s baptism in symbol of that repentance? And didn’t these ones then have to undergo Christian baptism to publicly demonstrate their dedication to God and their resolve to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ from that day forward?

Jesus often used questions to get his audience to reason on their own beliefs.

These are the questions I have asked, and would like you to answer......take them one at a time if you prefer but please do not give your own opinion as it not worth anything in this sort of discussion. Provide sources that lead you to your conclusions if its not too much to ask.....
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Did Jesus bow to the scholastic education of the Pharisees?
Jesus recognized the scholasticism of the Pharisees. He called them “religious authorities.” What he debated was their interpretations.

Why did he personally chose uneducated men to become the foundations of his kingdom?
He also chose people who were educated. Matthew, a publican, would have had an education. Simon was a politician, and Philip, James, and Judas were probably learned in the trades.

Nothing to do with the fact that the religious education offered by the Pharisees was useless to Jesus because they had completely lost the plot, was it?
Where in the Bible does it specifically say that? In fact, some of Jesus’ disciples were Pharisees. Nicodemus was a Pharisee. Jesus ate with Pharisees. Jesus and the Pharisees, therefore shared an affinity for one another.

NO images were to be used in worship
Where in the Bible does it specifically say that?

second commandment...and yet the Catholic church is full of them. Do you support this?
Yes I do. First, it’s not up to me to judge others. Second, the commandment against idolatry excludes “images.” It only applies to the worship of graven images that are believed to have divine power in and of themselves. None of the images the Catholics use is an idol. Interestingly, the oldest known work of Christian art is a bas-relief in stone from the first century, prior to the establishment of the Roman Church, depicting Jesus in a crowd scene. Obviously the first believers disagree with your take on the 2nd commandment.

Where does the Bible ever call Mary "the Mother of God"?
It doesn’t, but since we know that not all valid Christian experience is limited to the Bible, its exclusion does not negate its validity.

Where is she featured throughout Jesus ministry
As a disciple.

The truth is, she hardly rates a mention
I disagree. She was present at the crucifixion and resurrection. She was one of the first to proclaim the resurrection to the other disciples. That fact alone places her in a high position among the disciples.

In your inclusiveness, do you support the RC church's beliefs about Mary's adoration and her intercessory role?
Yes.

What do you think Jesus was teaching in the parable of the wheat and the weeds?
Below, you say it doesn’t matter what I think. You can’t have it both ways. What does Matthew say about the wheat and the weeds?

it was about the future of Christianity
That’s not what Matthew specifies. This is your opinion, and not strictly biblical.

What were the seeds sown by the devil and where did he plant them?
Again, what does Matthew say?

hat is the "harvest" that sees the devil's seed destroyed by the appointed reapers
What does Matthew say?

Bearded darnel" is a blight to farmers in the Middle East because they call it "wheat's evil twin".
That term is not specified in the Bible and so cannot be used in your argument. It constitutes your opinion.

What do the posted pictures show to those who are not Catholic? How can you not defend these things if they are inaccurate?
My opinion doesn’t matter. Remember? All answers must be biblical according to you. What does the Bible say the posted pictures say to those who are not Catholic? In fact, the Bible mentions these pictures not at all, so your question is moot. It is your opinion, therefore, that these things are “inaccurate.”

If the church says that it doesn't worship the sun, and yet we see plainly that the sun is displayed on their objects of worship (which, incidentally, they were told NOT to make) let's hear your defense
Where does the Bible specifically say, “Thou shalt not make pictures of the sun?”

Was moving the Sabbath to "Sun"day also just a co-incidence, since the pagans already observed it?
The first day of the week was observed before the Roman Church came into being.

What “brand” of the Jewish faith did Jesus practice?
The Bible doesn’t tell us.

Was he loving and inclusive of the Pharisees or the Sadducees?
Yes. See above.

Did he have a good thing to say about those who were supposed to be teachers of his own faith?
Yes. He respected Nicodemus.

On what basis was Jesus “inclusive” of those whom he accepted as his disciples? When he preached to those “lost sheep” to whom he was sent, on what basis did he welcome them? Wasn’t it on the basis of their repentance? Wasn’t it a requirement for Jews to first undergo John’s baptism in symbol of that repentance?
That they love him.

Jesus often used questions to get his audience to reason on their own beliefs.
But Jesus didn’t gaslight them.

These are the questions I have asked, and would like you to answer......take them one at a time if you prefer but please do not give your own opinion as it not worth anything in this sort of discussion. Provide sources that lead you to your conclusions if its not too much to ask.....
So, from this post, I gather that I may not state opinion, but you may (since you have stated it on several occasions therein). This represents an argument that automatically favors you.

In matters of the Bible, commentary is always allowed: interpretations, exegetical findings, etc. Yet it appears to me that you just want me to stick to what’s actually written. Therefore, I asked you to state where specifically the Bible says what you say it says.

Where do you get your opinions? Are they formed yourself? if so, they’re not admissible, because your scholasticism in deriving opinion is not recognized here, as mine is not recognized here. Did you get them from someone else — some other Bible scholar or religious authority? Why is their authority any greater than mine? It seems as though you’re saying, “the Bible says what I get to say it says, but not what you say it says.” That’s not debate. It’s entrapment.

I answered your questions and posed some of my own in return. I’d like answers to those questions, with you adhering to the same criteria that you hold me. No commentary, no opinion — just what the Bible actually says. Oh! And it has to be a universally-recognized authoritative translation of the Bible. I specify the NRSV.

How do you know what the Bible says? You imply more than is actually written, so your interpretations must be gleaned from something extra-biblical. From what outside authority do you glean interpretation? From yourself? Why are your interpretations seen as authoritative, but you say mine are not? What’s the criterion for your assessment? Do you get your interpretations from someone else? From whom? Why are their teachings authoritative but mine are not? What is the criterion for their authority? You see, the door swings both ways. Can you clarify these things?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your response was completely devoid of scripture, which is the only thing I asked you to provide.....but nevertheless....I encourage you to look up the cited scriptures in this response to appreciate that nothing I say is unsupported by God's word....or is my own opinion.

I will break this up as its quite long.
FWIW....

Jesus recognized the scholasticism of the Pharisees. He called them “religious authorities.” What he debated was their interpretations.

He called what they taught “leaven”....a corrupting agent when applied to the teachings of religious leaders that can spread to everything it comes into contact with. (Matthew 16:6; Galatians 5:9; Leviticus 2:11; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8)

He also chose people who were educated. Matthew, a publican, would have had an education. Simon was a politician, and Philip, James, and Judas were probably learned in the trades.
Matthew was a hated tax collector for the Romans, so he was at least numerically educated. Peter, Andrew, James and John were fishermen. Philip eagerly sought Nathaniel to tell him the news, but as regards the relationship between them, it is not stated. (John 1:40-41; 43-49)

Most of the apostles are only briefly mentioned as part of "the Twelve" and only Matthew, John and Peter wrote contributions to Christian scripture. The ones who wrote the books of James and Jude were Jesus' half brothers who were only converted after their brother's death and resurrection.

The only educated apostle (as in the official religious education of the Pharisees) was Paul. (Acts 4:13) Who was educated at the feet of Gamaliel. (Acts 22:3) He was also the only one of the Apostles (though not one of "the Twelve") to have Roman citizenship. (Acts 22:28) Both were useful in his special assignment.

Where in the Bible does it specifically say that? In fact, some of Jesus’ disciples were Pharisees. Nicodemus was a Pharisee. Jesus ate with Pharisees. Jesus and the Pharisees, therefore shared an affinity for one another.
Nonsense....Jesus had an affinity to anyone who was responsive to his preaching....tax collectors and sinners of all sorts were given opportunity to change their ways......some of the Pharisees were responsive, but like Nicodemus were afraid of Jewish reprisals.

Matthew 23 NRSV...
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. 6 They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students."

The scribes and Pharisees were the only leaders of the Jewish faith and they had not had a prophet sent by God for some 300 years, (because they were incorrigible) then the Messiah came.....not to them, but to the "lost sheep" whom they had neglected. By that time they were well and truly entrenched in their man-made traditions and practices, which Jesus denounced....but if they were teaching the people from the scriptures, which they did in reading God's word aloud in the synagogue, then the people were instructed to follow what the scriptures said.....but NOT to follow their awful example because they were the worst of hypocrites. Their rigid interpretation of the law invalided the word of God. (Matthew 15:7-9)

"And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as yourselves."

" You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? (Gehenna)

What is "Gehenna" sojourner? Is it the same as "hades"? What future did Jesus sentence them to?

Where in the Bible does it specifically say that?
Exodus 20:4-6....NRSV
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Or as The Tanakh says...
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them."

The word translated "idol" (pesel or graven image) meant more to the Jews than it did to the "church" of later times. Gentiles were very familiar with idols and images that were part of their former worship, and that they were instructed to abandon. Images of any sort were avoided by Jews and the early Christians altogether.
Remembering the incident of the golden calf and God's response to their using it to represent him, demonstrates his intense hatred of images....regardless of what men call them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes I do. First, it’s not up to me to judge others.
But its up to all of us to judge what are the correct teachings of Jesus Christ. Unless we exercise that judgment we can be carried away by those who have a good story to tell. Those who were teaching things other than what Christ taught were to be avoided....especially in these "last days". (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Second, the commandment against idolatry excludes “images.” It only applies to the worship of graven images that are believed to have divine power in and of themselves. None of the images the Catholics use is an idol. Interestingly, the oldest known work of Christian art is a bas-relief in stone from the first century, prior to the establishment of the Roman Church, depicting Jesus in a crowd scene. Obviously the first believers disagree with your take on the 2nd commandment.
Is that your opinion or an excuse offered by a corrupt church?

You don't seem to be able to separate an idol from a work of art. Veneration is worship. When God told us not to make "graven images" of "anything" linked to our worship....I think he meant it.....

images
images
images
images

This is idolatry......pure and simple....unmistakable.

It doesn’t, but since we know that not all valid Christian experience is limited to the Bible, its exclusion does not negate its validity.
What then is "valid"? If God's word says one thing and men decide to do the opposite, who do we count on to be right? Whose instructions do we follow?

As a disciple.

I disagree. She was present at the crucifixion and resurrection. She was one of the first to proclaim the resurrection to the other disciples. That fact alone places her in a high position among the disciples.

She was his mother...where else would she be? Of course she was a disciple of her son, knowing full well the source of his life and the special role he was to play, all explained by the angel Gabriel when he first told her of his birth. His siblings however took some time to be convinced of their oldest brother's place in God's arrangement.

So you see Mary as "the Mother of God" then, despite the fact that it is impossible for any human to be the mother of an uncreated and immortal deity.....?
You agree that she has a place as a mediatrix or intercessor between us and God?

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NRSV....
"there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time."

So who is the only mediator between God and man? Its not Mary or the Saints....its Jesus.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Below, you say it doesn’t matter what I think. You can’t have it both ways. What does Matthew say about the wheat and the weeds?

That’s not what Matthew specifies. This is your opinion, and not strictly biblical.

Again, what does Matthew say?

What does Matthew say?

That term is not specified in the Bible and so cannot be used in your argument. It constitutes your opinion.
Nice dodge.....what do the scholars say...?....you know, those ones who have knowledge to share that you so often like to refer to.....? Its not my interpretation...its theirs. Not your scholars? That is not my problem.

The word translated "weeds" is "zizanion" which according to Strongs (argue with them if you wish) is....
"a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black"....only at the harvest time are these two clearly distinguishable. It is called "wheat's evil twin" because sometimes an enemy would sow this weed in his neighbor's field as an act of spite, knowing full well that it would either interfere with his neighbor's harvest or ruin it

What does Matthew say indeed......?

When he was asked by the disciples to explain the parable....
Jesus said...
"Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; 38 the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!"


There it is...the full explanation...no interpretation needed.

All answers must be biblical according to you.

I am still waiting for any biblical citations sojourner....

What does the Bible say the posted pictures say to those who are not Catholic? In fact, the Bible mentions these pictures not at all, so your question is moot.
You just undid your own argument.....What is in those those pictures as you so rightly suggest, are not represented in the Bible at all....in fact they are strongly opposed.

It is your opinion, therefore, that these things are “inaccurate.”

Where does the Bible specifically say, “Thou shalt not make pictures of the sun?”
No images, means no images....unless of course you want to worship what was already sacred to the pagan Romans...?

The first day of the week was observed before the Roman Church came into being.
Yes, but was Sunday the first day of the Jewish week? Or was it already a day dedicated to the Roman sun god? What day did the Sabbath fall on? Look at your calendar sojourner...what is the first day of the week? What is the last or the 7th day? Is it not Saturday?

The Bible doesn’t tell us.
It wasn't what the scribes and Pharisees taught or what the Sadducees believed....it was what he received straight from his Father.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes. He respected Nicodemus.
Nicodemus came to Jesus under cover of darkness.....no one who wanted to come to Christ on his terms was rejected.

That they love him.
In what way did you answer the question?
When Jesus preached to those “lost sheep” to whom he was sent, on what basis did he welcome them? Wasn’t it on the basis of their repentance? Wasn’t it a requirement for Jews to first undergo John’s baptism in symbol of that repentance?
But Jesus didn’t gaslight them.
Diddums.....did Jesus make the Pharisees feel bad about misleading God's people? Was he "gaslighting" them? Or simply pointing out the obvious truth? Were their feelings hurt....you betcha, because they couldn't deny a thing he said....they basically asked for everything they got. Read Matthew 23 again. But their hurt feelings turned to hatred and it consumed them to the point where they wanted him dead. Old habits die hard apparently. (Matthew 23:37)

So, from this post, I gather that I may not state opinion, but you may (since you have stated it on several occasions therein). This represents an argument that automatically favors you.
If any argument favors me then it favors scripture....I make no apology for that. Have you used scripture at all in this response?

In matters of the Bible, commentary is always allowed: interpretations, exegetical findings, etc. Yet it appears to me that you just want me to stick to what’s actually written. Therefore, I asked you to state where specifically the Bible says what you say it says.
If you knew scripture as well as you know your own enigmatic doctrines, you would already know the answer to that.

Where do you get your opinions? Are they formed yourself? if so, they’re not admissible, because your scholasticism in deriving opinion is not recognized here, as mine is not recognized here. Did you get them from someone else — some other Bible scholar or religious authority? Why is their authority any greater than mine? It seems as though you’re saying, “the Bible says what I get to say it says, but not what you say it says.” That’s not debate. It’s entrapment.
Again with the drama....seriously sojourner......if you had ever revealed your specific faith, I would know at least who taught you what you espouse. My sources are there in my signature......what is in yours? Is "Mrs Grundy's Kite Flying Institute" the source of your beliefs? That would at least be something....

I answered your questions and posed some of my own in return. I’d like answers to those questions, with you adhering to the same criteria that you hold me. No commentary, no opinion — just what the Bible actually says. Oh! And it has to be a universally-recognized authoritative translation of the Bible. I specify the NRSV.

Hilarious!! Where is the Bible used in a single thing you've said? All I ever asked was your sources...and still you hide them. What are you afraid of? Where is the courage of your convictions?

How do you know what the Bible says? You imply more than is actually written, so your interpretations must be gleaned from something extra-biblical. From what outside authority do you glean interpretation? From yourself? Why are your interpretations seen as authoritative, but you say mine are not? What’s the criterion for your assessment? Do you get your interpretations from someone else? From whom? Why are their teachings authoritative but mine are not? What is the criterion for their authority? You see, the door swings both ways. Can you clarify these things?

LOL...are you losing it?

I had to Google Sharmanism and strangely, I didn't find a single image that was remotely connected to "Christianity".
sharmanism - Google Search

According to Wiki...
"Shamanism is a religious practice that involves a practitioner who is believed to interact with a spirit world through altered states of consciousness, such as trance. The goal of this is usually to direct these spirits or spiritual energies into the physical world, for healing or another purpose."

Is this who you are? Is this what you practice? Who am I having a debate with in "same faith debates"?
It appears that you practice something other than Christianity.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
He called what they taught “leaven”.
That’s what I said. Your response has nothing to do with refuting his recognition of their scholarship — or their authority.

Matthew was a hated tax collector for the Romans, so he was at least numerically educated. Peter, Andrew, James and John were fishermen. Philip eagerly sought Nathaniel to tell him the news, but as regards the relationship between them, it is not stated. (John 1:40-41; 43-49)

Most of the apostles are only briefly mentioned as part of "the Twelve" and only Matthew, John and Peter wrote contributions to Christian scripture. The ones who wrote the books of James and Jude were Jesus' half brothers who were only converted after their brother's death and resurrection.

The only educated apostle (as in the official religious education of the Pharisees) was Paul. (Acts 4:13) Who was educated at the feet of Gamaliel. (Acts 22:3) He was also the only one of the Apostles (though not one of "the Twelve") to have Roman citizenship. (Acts 22:28) Both were useful in his special assignment.
None of this refutes what I said.
Nicodemus is listed three times, most especially at John 3:1ff and Jn 19:39ff. He was a Pharisee.

The word translated "idol" (pesel or graven image) meant more to the Jews than it did to the "church" of later times.
I already explained that. idols are worship as if they have divine power in and of themselves. That’s not what happens in Catholic veneration, though.

But its up to all of us to judge what are the correct teachings of Jesus Christ
Jesus was far more concerned with intent than with orthodoxy. See his response to the religious authorities about work on the Sabbath at Mt 12 and Lk 14.

Veneration is worship.
No. Veneration is veneration. Worship is worship. Veneration means “to respect,” according to the dictionary. Worship is more than respecting something. That’s why the church is specific in its language.

What then is "valid"? If God's word says one thing and men decide to do the opposite, who do we count on to be right? Whose instructions do we follow?
Acts tells us in chap.2 that the early followers “continued in the Apostles’ teaching.” It is their legacy of authority given to them by Jesus (2 Cor. 10). God’s word was written by religious authorities, who were men. The Bible has no more authority than the apostles’ teaching. Jesus certainly didn’t think it had any authority over him.

Nice dodge.....what do the scholars say...?....you know, those ones who have knowledge to share that you so often like to refer to.....? Its not my interpretation...its theirs. Not your scholars? That is not my problem.
No, you said that scholarship doesn’t matter. it’s what the Bible says that matters. Not your reading of the Bible? Not my problem.

There it is...the full explanation...no interpretation needed.
...according to you. I dismiss your not-interpretation.
You just undid your own argument.....What is in those those pictures as you so rightly suggest, are not represented in the Bible at all....in fact they are strongly opposed
Jesus isn’t represented? Mary isn’t represented? The bread of the Covenant isn’t represented? Of course they are, unless you’re reading a fantasy-bible. And none of them are “opposed” by the Bible. The Bible says nothing about “representations.” “Representations” and idols are two completely different things.

No images, means no images.
Nope. See above.

Yes, but was Sunday the first day of the Jewish week?
Yes.

It wasn't what the scribes and Pharisees taught or what the Sadducees believed....it was what he received straight from his Father
This isn’t germane to my statement.

In way way did you answer the question?
When Jesus preached to those “lost sheep” to whom he was sent, on what basis did he welcome them? Wasn’t it on the basis of their repentance? Wasn’t it a requirement for Jews to first undergo John’s baptism in symbol of that repentance?
That’s not how I read it.

Diddums.....did Jesus make the Pharisees feel bad about misleading God's people? Was he "gaslighting" them? Or simply pointing out the obvious truth? Were their feelings hurt....you betcha, because they couldn't deny a thing he said....they basically asked for everything they got. Read Matthew 23 again. But their hurt feelings turned to hatred and it consumed them to the point where they wanted him dead. Old habits die hard apparently. (Matthew 23:37)
Jesus didn’t gaslight them.

If any argument favors me then it favors scripture
Uh, no. It favors your interpretation, which has not been fully exegeted.
Again with the drama....seriously sojourner......if you had ever revealed your specific faith, I would know at least who taught you what you espouse. My sources are there in my signature.
JW.org is not recognized as a scholastic authority on the biblical texts.

I had to Google Sharmanism and strangely, I didn't find a single image that was remotely connected to "Christianity".
sharmanism - Google Search

According to Wiki...
"Shamanism is a religious practice that involves a practitioner who is believed to interact with a spirit world through altered states of consciousness, such as trance. The goal of this is usually to direct these spirits or spiritual energies into the physical world, for healing or another purpose."

Is this who you are? Is this what you practice? Who am I having a debate with in "same faith debates"?
It appears that you practice something other than Christianity.
Wiki (and generally internet sources) aren’t all that great, because they lack the nuances and flavor of what they describe. Additionally, you completely ignored the other half of my description. It clearly says “Christian.” Christianity and shamanism are not incompatible. And once again, how I choose to practice my spiritual walk isn’t up for discussion. Suffice to say that I am a scholar of Christianity, and the Bible, no matter what my description says. I may not be “your” scholar, but then, I don’t recognize your authority or acumen to make that judgment. My word is as good as any other scholar’s (including JW “scholars”).

I think we’ve hashed this out enough. I would redirect your attention to my first post in this thread. The scholarship is recognized, agreed upon, and simply “is the way it is.” You’re flailing your arms and pointing fingers over things that are relatively of little importance. You’re arguing over the penmanship instead of the actual message. You’re arguing that the message is in a different language, rather than one you happen to prefer, instead of realizing that the message is bigger than the methods of delivery. The important thing is intent. It’s what’s in the heart. Modes of worship, theology, praxis, and metaphoric imagery are all “window dressing.” God’s interested in the message that’s being lived out: love, compassion, forbearance, inclusion, forgiveness, mercy, justice, equity, hospitality. It doesn’t matter whether that message arrives in a Mercedes or on a moped. We choose to honor the resurrection and we choose to worship a resurrected Christ. I don’t give a darn what you choose to do, until you begin to point fingers and tell us we’re “wrong” and “not Christian.”
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's "amazing" that some claim to understand the scriptures and yet they persistently violate Jesus' command to "judge ye not", and then some post repeated lies about all other denominations that supposedly form "Christendom", thus leaving only the JW's to supposedly be the only "true Christians"? If I ever come to believe that, please throw me off the Mackinac Bridge but give me a pasty to eat first, OK?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That’s what I said. Your response has nothing to do with refuting his recognition of their scholarship — or their authority.


None of this refutes what I said.

Nicodemus is listed three times, most especially at John 3:1ff and Jn 19:39ff. He was a Pharisee.


I already explained that. idols are worship as if they have divine power in and of themselves. That’s not what happens in Catholic veneration, though.

Jesus was far more concerned with intent than with orthodoxy. See his response to the religious authorities about work on the Sabbath at Mt 12 and Lk 14.


No. Veneration is veneration. Worship is worship. Veneration means “to respect,” according to the dictionary. Worship is more than respecting something. That’s why the church is specific in its language.

Acts tells us in chap.2 that the early followers “continued in the Apostles’ teaching.” It is their legacy of authority given to them by Jesus (2 Cor. 10). God’s word was written by religious authorities, who were men. The Bible has no more authority than the apostles’ teaching. Jesus certainly didn’t think it had any authority over him.


No, you said that scholarship doesn’t matter. it’s what the Bible says that matters. Not your reading of the Bible? Not my problem.


...according to you. I dismiss your not-interpretation.

Jesus isn’t represented? Mary isn’t represented? The bread of the Covenant isn’t represented? Of course they are, unless you’re reading a fantasy-bible. And none of them are “opposed” by the Bible. The Bible says nothing about “representations.” “Representations” and idols are two completely different things.


Nope. See above.


Yes.


This isn’t germane to my statement.


That’s not how I read it.


Jesus didn’t gaslight them.


Uh, no. It favors your interpretation, which has not been fully exegeted.

JW.org is not recognized as a scholastic authority on the biblical texts.


Wiki (and generally internet sources) aren’t all that great, because they lack the nuances and flavor of what they describe. Additionally, you completely ignored the other half of my description. It clearly says “Christian.” Christianity and shamanism are not incompatible. And once again, how I choose to practice my spiritual walk isn’t up for discussion. Suffice to say that I am a scholar of Christianity, and the Bible, no matter what my description says. I may not be “your” scholar, but then, I don’t recognize your authority or acumen to make that judgment. My word is as good as any other scholar’s (including JW “scholars”).

I think we’ve hashed this out enough. I would redirect your attention to my first post in this thread. The scholarship is recognized, agreed upon, and simply “is the way it is.” You’re flailing your arms and pointing fingers over things that are relatively of little importance. You’re arguing over the penmanship instead of the actual message. You’re arguing that the message is in a different language, rather than one you happen to prefer, instead of realizing that the message is bigger than the methods of delivery. The important thing is intent. It’s what’s in the heart. Modes of worship, theology, praxis, and metaphoric imagery are all “window dressing.” God’s interested in the message that’s being lived out: love, compassion, forbearance, inclusion, forgiveness, mercy, justice, equity, hospitality. It doesn’t matter whether that message arrives in a Mercedes or on a moped. We choose to honor the resurrection and we choose to worship a resurrected Christ. I don’t give a darn what you choose to do, until you begin to point fingers and tell us we’re “wrong” and “not Christian.”

You know what sojourner....I'm just going to let that sit there in all its glory as a testament to the kind of "Christianity" you espouse......because I see no scripture presented or any relationship to what Jesus taught at all. There is justification and excuses for leaving the path Christ set, but nothing more.

All forms of spiritism were forbidden to God's people for the very reason of its source and its origins. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
I can see that you and your beliefs are made for each other. No one can penetrate a barrier like denial.

We will all get to see in the end who was telling the truth....won't we? We all have the same judge.
 
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