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When a person "discover wisdom" that is not in the holy books

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
According to you it begins and ends in Allah, Quran and Mohammad. Am I wrong? :)
I do believe it start with Allah yes, I do believe Muhammad did get his message from Allah through an Angel And that message is given to the followers through the Quran and other teachings.

Can i say that the Allah Muslims believe in is the only teaching given to humanity? No that i can not, because we do see other teachings both before and after Islam become a spiritual path to follow.
But for a Muslim who follow mainstream Islam or any of the other branches will have to only follow the teaching within Islam. and the spesific teaching given in each branch
What others believe in is not up to me to judge, So I can not say other religious teachings is more or less correct than Islam. I see it as one of the true ways. (here other muslims will disagree a lot with me i think)
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Reading scriptures only, one's own or of others, cannot give one wisdom. They were written centuries ago. One cannot ignore science in 2021, one cannot ignore the changes that human societies have gone through. No wisdom without taking these into consideration. For example, Mohammad talked about black magic, djinns (and more). Should one believe in that in 2021?

Oh really? So 'love your neighbor as yourself' is something you can't take on board because it was
'written centuries ago" ??????
Compassion, meekness, love, charity, forgiveness, generosity etc are all old fashioned? Certainly
seems so in this 'modern' adulterous and drug addled world.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Oh really? So 'love your neighbor as yourself' is something you can't take on board because it was
'written centuries ago" ??????
Compassion, meekness, love, charity, forgiveness, generosity etc are all old fashioned? Certainly
seems so in this 'modern' adulterous and drug addled world.

Love thy neighbor can be walking door to door to spread the news.

It could be helping a grieving, say, pagan, come to Christ as the only means of consolation.

It could mean showing the best interest of others well being is for them to follow the shower's values.

Cultures vary in love and respect as do religions.

It's too vague of a phrase. We learn that before we even read any scriptures.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Oh really? So 'love your neighbor as yourself' is something you can't take on board because it was 'written centuries ago" ??????
Compassion, meekness, love, charity, forgiveness, generosity etc are all old fashioned? Certainly seems so in this 'modern' adulterous and drug addled world.
You can't always love your neighbor. Even God asked Moses to eliminate the Amalekites and Medianites. India has China and Pakistan on its borders. Both are not very lovable.
These things are good, no doubt. But the eligibility of any one to whom we are offering this has to be considered. It cannot be a blank check.
What for do we need to be meek? And all crimes cannot be forgiven. Even God threw Adam and Eve from Eden for disobeying him and gave them death.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I have a question about what is your view on gaining new understanding, wisdom/knowledge within a religion but there is no direct connection to it in the scripture.

Would it be better if this person did not see it as a part of the teaching?
Or do you see it more as a part of the journey, and that the person did gain deeper wisdom from the teaching?

I guess the real question is: should a religious person just read the teaching, but not seek the deep wisdom within? or is it a sign of enlightenment to be able to draw new wisdom from the teaching?

When people speak of deep wisdom, sometimes what they mean is "I have read what I have in mind into the text". One Christian apologist in this forum said that Jesus killing Pigs in the hadith is the same as Jesus killing Christians and that is his wisdom he saw in the text.

Wisdom of the text is a different thing. When people speak of deep wisdom, it becomes "double meaning" a lot of times. That means people go looking for double meaning. Then sometimes they go interpreting these words in such strange ways its lunacy. There are some who interpret some words in the Quran to mean a place in India and he is from there, his sister and himself are both prophets, their "nick names" could be found in the Quran, etc etc etc.

Rather, read the Quran with reasoning prowess, intellect and righteousness. That is what the Quran says. Aqal, and Thaqwaa.

Peace.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
I think of it this way:

Imagine that you’d written down all the advice you’d heard whiles growing up (from as long back as you remembered until, say... the age of 27), including such advice that had made no sense and the kind that had seemed down right wrong to you.

Then, imagine revisiting your notes on a yearly basis, without changing or adding anything to what you’d written.

It is likely that your interpretation of (the meaning of) what you read would change over time and that it would do so based on the experiences you’d been through since the last time you read it.

But, if all you did one year was to read your notes, it is likely that during that year, your understanding of what stood there would remain unchanged, because you would not have had new experiences with which to enrich your interpretations with. Indoctrination would be the only result.

To extract wisdom and not just words from spiritual scripture, one must step away from just studying it and acquire experience from living it too.


Humbly
Hermit
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I guess the real question is: should a religious person just read the teaching, but not seek the deep wisdom within? or is it a sign of enlightenment to be able to draw new wisdom from the teaching?

Wisdom does not come from book, however exalted or revered. Books, scriptures, can be helpful, but as Rumi said, what we seek is to be found in our own hearts:

Cross and Christians, end to end, i examined. He was not on the Cross. I went to the Hindu Temple, to the ancient pagoda. In none of them there was any sign. To the heights of Herat I went and to Kandhar, I looked. He was not on the elevation not on the low lands.

Resolutely I went to summit of the fabulous mountain of Ka'af. There was only the dwelling of the Anqa bird.I went to Kaaba at Mecca. He was not there. I asked him from Avicenna the philosopher. He was beyond the range of Avicenna, I looked into my own heart. In that place I saw him.

He was in no other place.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You just described sufism :) sufism is when you take the scripture and use it together with personal experience from your own practice.

Which comes first, the experience, or the scripture. Very often by reading a scripture, it'll lead you to an experience/ In other words, does it colour the subconscious so that only certain experiences can be had.
 

passerby

Member
Because wisdom never ends :) what i understand or believe today is only 0,1 % of the truth out there. The more i look in to spirituality the more i realize i do truly not understand a lot :)
We can never reach a true or full understanding in this life. We can but take the tiny shreds of joy that will one day become whole and complete, but not in this world.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Wisdom is an eternal journey and not an endpoint of achievement.

If we believe we have arrived or achieved we are further away from journey than before.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Reading scriptures only, one's own or of others, cannot give one wisdom. They were written centuries ago. One cannot ignore science in 2021, one cannot ignore the changes that human societies have gone through. No wisdom without taking these into consideration. For example, Mohammad talked about black magic, djinns (and more). Should one believe in that in 2021?

Please quote the scripture. Where does Muhammed speak of Magic and Jinns, and why do you believe he indeed did so??

Lets see if you have proper reasons.
 

passerby

Member
I think someone can read holy scripture of any religion, for a whole lifetime and never become a person of spirit. Rather their engagement with texts mays sometimes put limits on their own unique spiritual journey. If people open themselves to seeing beyond words, at the endless possibilities that life, nature, interaction with others etc. has to offer then that may bring them to a better understanding of those scriptures. For me, prayer is key. Without prayer and an opening up to what God wants for us, we will read forever and get nowhere.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I have a question about what is your view on gaining new understanding, wisdom/knowledge within a religion but there is no direct connection to it in the scripture.

Would it be better if this person did not see it as a part of the teaching?
Or do you see it more as a part of the journey, and that the person did gain deeper wisdom from the teaching?

I guess the real question is: should a religious person just read the teaching, but not seek the deep wisdom within? or is it a sign of enlightenment to be able to draw new wisdom from the teaching?
Wisdom is from God. Portrayed in scripture like book of Proverbs as a spirit that looks for a place in people's hearts but often doesn't find it. Competes with foolishness for people's attention.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I have a question about what is your view on gaining new understanding, wisdom/knowledge within a religion but there is no direct connection to it in the scripture.

Would it be better if this person did not see it as a part of the teaching?
Or do you see it more as a part of the journey, and that the person did gain deeper wisdom from the teaching?

I guess the real question is: should a religious person just read the teaching, but not seek the deep wisdom within? or is it a sign of enlightenment to be able to draw new wisdom from the teaching?

I didn't become a know-it-all until I actually knew it all (joking). Reading the entire internet was a bit time consuming (joking).

The more one learns, the more one realizes that they know very little, or that there is a lot more to learn.

Socrates was said to have been one of the smartest people who ever lived. When the mayor of Athens called him an idiot, Socrates said that he knew that he was an idiot, but the mayor didn't know that he (the mayor) was also an idiot, therefore, that extra knowledge made him (Socrates) smarter.

Socrates was said to be the father of philosophy (which, at the time, was the study of all knowledge). Socrates wrote no books, but his student, Plato, wrote on his behalf. Plato (for Socrates) wrote a book about how discussion gains knowledge.

Some people fear discussing religion, for fear that questioning God's existence, motives, or actions might incur his wrath. Some even revere God so much that they don't dare write God, but write G-d. Discussing God strengthens convictions about him.

Scripture says that you have an obligation to learn what is good. (This is the direct connection in scriptures to knowledge, that you asked about). So, if you refuse to read the bible, you are not living up to your obligation. It is possible that one can be good without reading about how to do it. Many atheists are generous and helpful, but for some, it helps to read the bible and understand what God wants.

Since the end of knowledge can never be reached (no one can know everything), it must be considered a journey, not a destination.

One must be humble in order to learn and follow orders (example: orders from God).

Reading the bible, and knowing what God wants is not enough. One must put it into practice. Commandments of God are not some dusty history, they should apply to our lives right now.

For example, the war in Iraq defies God. God said "thou shalt not kill" and Revelation specifically said not to attack Iraq or face God's wrath. But, because the Al Qaeda attacked America, it seemed logical to humans (using the human mind) to make war. Those who had faith in God followed God's instructions not to have a war. Those who were faithless, and followed the whims of mankind, were deceived into war by Satan's lies (lies that said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction after we spent years proving that they did not, and lies that Iraq had some slight connection to terrorism). About a million Iraqis were killed, and a torture camp was made in Guantanamo.

So, we knew that God didn't want war, but we followed Satan's lies and went to war anyway. Satan put fear in our hearts (fear of more terrorism), and that fear was ramped up when Satan made Orange Alerts that made us think that North Korea was about to attack California with nuclear missiles. Our president (W. Bush), and his aides (Rice and Powell), lied us into war. Only Satan uses lies to promote violence.

Satan's tactics of lies, greed, and violence oppose wisdom and knowledge, and can defeat even the wisest.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
You can't always love your neighbor. Even God asked Moses to eliminate the Amalekites and Medianites. India has China and Pakistan on its borders. Both are not very lovable.
These things are good, no doubt. But the eligibility of any one to whom we are offering this has to be considered. It cannot be a blank check.
What for do we need to be meek? And all crimes cannot be forgiven. Even God threw Adam and Eve from Eden for disobeying him and gave them death.

It is for God to deal with His enemies, to forgive or not to forgive - your role is to
obey God's command. And this includes doing no violence, forgiving, showing
charity to those who hate you etc..
 
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