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a standing empty cross

nPeace

Veteran Member
No I'm not a Catholic but was brought up as a Catholic.
Yes all Christians know that smoking is not good for you and that we should stop. It is not a law of God however and it has been made into one by the GB. It is a cleansing of the outside of the vessel however and is not a sin that should stop someone from having eternal life. That is what my brother in law was essentially told, stop smoking or you will not have eternal life because you can't become a JW.
I could move on to transfusions. I don't know if it is a serious sin in the WT to eat blood in any other way, only transfusions are mentioned.
When I look at this in Acts 15 I see Jewish Christians, zealous for the law and wanting to made Gentile Christians obey the law for their salvation. This had to be dealt with in a way where the Gospel was not compromised and brought back to obeying law, but also in a way where the Jewish Christians could have fellowship with the Gentile Christians and not feel as if they were being made unclean to be near them. This was accomplished by basically saying that the Gentiles should follow the Noahide law, which it seems is what Gentiles did if they wanted to become Jewish converts.
This decision was made for the purpose of peace and fellowship in the Church at the time and it was not part of any law that Christians needed to follow in order to have salvation.
What does the GB do? It makes it into a law which you have to obey in order to have salvation (be in the WT) and extends it to the life saving blood transfusions, thus putting the lives of JWs at risk. Not even Jews refuse transfusions.
BUT can you see that the GB has lacked spiritual discernment and has turned the passage on it's head,,,,,,,,,,,,making a law out of something that was meant to stop the Legalistic Jewish Christians from making the law essential for salvation.
(2 Corinthians 7:1) Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
If that is mot a law or rule, then maybe I don't know what a law is.

I see the Ethiopian being baptised on hearing the Gospel. I see the house of Cornelius being baptised on hearing the gospel. I see 3000 people at Pentecost being baptised in the Holy Spirit on hearing about Jesus and believing. These people repented but that does not mean that they knew everything the Lord would eventually want them to relinquish or that they had overcome completely their sins.
You are talking rubbish.
Overcome completely their sins? What does that mean? Who can overcome completely their sins?
Maybe you don't know what rubbish is Brian. :laughing: Look at your post again. You wrote it, didn't you.

I got baptized before I knew everything the Lord wanted me to relinquish.
Why not get educated about JWs before continuously repeating things you know nothing about.

You seem to think it is okay to hide what the Bible says - what God requires from persons, so that they can get baptized. Is that what you are saying?
So don't tell them God wants us to hate the bad... leave that for later. Is that what you are saying?
If that's not it, what's the problem you are having?

It is a life time's work for God to change us and with our cooperation, rid us of what we repented of. That does not happen before we are baptised even if it is good that new comers know what they are in for. They should consider what it will mean to be a disciple.
Of what we repented of?
Okay, so you agree we must repent, right?
So you have a pack of cigars in your pocket, and you tell me "I repent. I repent.". ....and I am to say "Yes you repent." :laughing:

What you are saying is like a woman who spends the whole day cleaning her house because she does not want the cleaner to see it untidy.
What the GB makes new converts do is the rules of men and not those of God.
You have not shown that up to now. All I am hearing are complaints from a man who wants to make his own rules on Christian life.
A Christian is a follower of Christ, and his teachings. Do you understand that Brian? His teachings.
The GB - the faithful and discrete slave, are given the responsibility of dispensing those teachings.
Do you deny that? Read Matthew 24:45. You will find it there.
Are you the faithful and discrete slave? No? Then what is the problem you are having?

I believe you would have joined those Paul had problems with in the congregation.
(2 Corinthians 10:10-12) 10For they say: “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence in person is weak and his speech contemptible.” 11 Let such a man consider that what we say by letters when absent, this we will also do when present. 12 For we do not dare to class ourselves or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. But when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding.

I could see you now, as one of the Israelites in Moses' day.
korah.jpg


That's the spirit.
Moses thinks HE can tell us what HE wants us to do. What a rebellious spirit.
Brian. Can we learn anything from that? Can you.
Moses was appointed leader... by Jehovah.
It didn't matter what anyone else thought.

korah1.jpg

Jehovah has spoken. :)

Like Moses, the appointed men - the overseers in the congregations - gave instruction. They were responsible for keeping the congregation clean, and protect the brothers from spiritual harm.
Imagine that someone offered to pay you to keep their property clean, and left you in charge for a few weeks.
When they return, and find all manner of filth on their property - dog mess, cow mess, horse mess, you name it, would they pat you on the back, and say, "Well done. Here is your money."?
No. They would escort you off their property so fast, you would think you were on SheiKra.
Jesus expects the slave to take care of his domestics.

No I don't do that. I don't go out and spend a certain number of hours preaching each week and have it recorded in church records. Maybe I should. You JWs are so fantastic in what you do,,,,,,,,,,,,what the GB forces you to do,,,,,,,,,,You must be the correct religion and all you doctrines must be right. We know the GB is right because it is the faithful servant and the doctrines and rules they set are not contrary to the Bible or you would disagree with them,,,,,,,,,,,,,as long as you do that for a short time only and don't disagree too strongly,,,,,,,,,,,that is ground for dismissal from eternal life in as a JW it seems.
Why are you finding fault with every little thing we do?
You are not suggesting that we only make rules that are written in the Bible are you? So for example, we should not say, "Clean the windows of the Kingdom Hall. Keep them tidy." "Dress as ministers representing God." "Respect people's privacy and don't look into windows when you are calling on the neighbors." :laughing:
As my brother says, "Grief." You are a complainer.
(Exodus 15:24) . . .So the people began to murmur against Moses, saying. . .
(Exodus 17:2) . . .So the people began quarreling with Moses and saying. . .
(Exodus 17:3) . . .and they kept murmuring against Moses and saying. . .
(Numbers 11:1) . . .Now the people began to complain bitterly before Jehovah. . . .
(Numbers 14:2) . . .All the Israelites began to murmur against Moses and Aaron, and the whole assembly spoke against them, saying. . .
(Numbers 16:41) . . .On the very next day, the whole assembly of the Israelites began to murmur against Moses and Aaron, saying. . .
(Numbers 20:3) . . .The people were quarreling with Moses, saying. . .

Some people never learn, do they.
(1 Corinthians 10:10, 11) 10Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

Boy am I glad you are not one of JWs.
I hope though that you do come to a realization before Jehovah does speak again. :)

But seriously I have already said that the work of preaching is a good thing and needs to be done and that the JWs have a zeal for it. There are no points to be gained from going on about it.

You have been taught well by the hate literature you are fed.

Thanks for that but it is what I see in the Bible and what I am taught in Church.

I don't really need you to tell me that. But thanks. Actually I have seen some of these dead works in the list of rules. Celebrating birthdays and joining Government and growing a beard (probably not in the list) smoking, saluting the flag, having oral sex, disagreeing with the teachings of the GB,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,all the disgusting things that the WT wants to say disqualify you from eternal life,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because they say so and the have the power,,,,,,,,,,,according to them.
We've been here. We're done with that.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
(2 Corinthians 7:1) Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
If that is mot a law or rule, then maybe I don't know what a law is.

You don't want to answer my comments on Acts 15 then.
No 2Cor 7:1 is not a law, it is what we are to do as Christians.


Overcome completely their sins? What does that mean? Who can overcome completely their sins?
Maybe you don't know what rubbish is Brian. :laughing: Look at your post again. You wrote it, didn't you.

I got baptized before I knew everything the Lord wanted me to relinquish.
Why not get educated about JWs before continuously repeating things you know nothing about.

You seem to think it is okay to hide what the Bible says - what God requires from persons, so that they can get baptized. Is that what you are saying?
So don't tell them God wants us to hate the bad... leave that for later. Is that what you are saying?
If that's not it, what's the problem you are having?

I might speak in hyperbole but the gist is true.
I see my brother in law and his smoking habit which prevented him from being a JW and I see man made rules to be and remain a JW and know that is not part of the gospel message.
It is not OK to hide what the Bible says but many of those rules are not what the Bible says, they are by the authority of the GB. Sort of reminds me of the scripture about changing times and laws, and reminds me of the Pharisees who taught man made laws.
I see you do not want to answer the scriptures about what was required in the early Church in order to be baptised.


You have not shown that up to now. All I am hearing are complaints from a man who wants to make his own rules on Christian life.
A Christian is a follower of Christ, and his teachings. Do you understand that Brian? His teachings.
The GB - the faithful and discrete slave, are given the responsibility of dispensing those teachings.
Do you deny that? Read Matthew 24:45. You will find it there.
Are you the faithful and discrete slave? No? Then what is the problem you are having?

I have shown you that the 'no transfusion' rule is incorrect. Do I need to show you that celebrating a birthday is not an evil practice? Man made rules from a GB who makes itself the faithful and discreet slave by it's own authority.

I believe you would have joined those Paul had problems with in the congregation.
(2 Corinthians 10:10-12) 10For they say: “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence in person is weak and his speech contemptible.” 11 Let such a man consider that what we say by letters when absent, this we will also do when present. 12 For we do not dare to class ourselves or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. But when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding.

I could see you now, as one of the Israelites in Moses' day.

It sounds as if you think that Moses had not demonstrated that he was their leader and supported by God or that Paul had not shown himself to be an apostles and supported by the other apostles.
Did they make rules that were not from God?
The GB appointed themselves as God's spokesmen and God has shown JWs ever since that God is not speaking through them. How many false dates does it take? How many misrepresentations of what would happen on those dates?

Some people never learn, do they.
(1 Corinthians 10:10, 11) 10Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

Boy am I glad you are not one of JWs.
I hope though that you do come to a realization before Jehovah does speak again. :)

If I was a JW and believed what the GB taught I would probably not be a grumbler, but I am outside and even though I do not know it all I do see some basic things about the JWs that are not right and I see the GB as having enslaved God's people in a man made org. This of course is from Satan who does anything to attack Jesus servants and take them from the truth and use them against the truth if possible.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
You don't want to answer my comments on Acts 15 then.
No 2Cor 7:1 is not a law, it is what we are to do as Christians.




I might speak in hyperbole but the gist is true.
I see my brother in law and his smoking habit which prevented him from being a JW and I see man made rules to be and remain a JW and know that is not part of the gospel message.
It is not OK to hide what the Bible says but many of those rules are not what the Bible says, they are by the authority of the GB. Sort of reminds me of the scripture about changing times and laws, and reminds me of the Pharisees who taught man made laws.
I see you do not want to answer the scriptures about what was required in the early Church in order to be baptised.




I have shown you that the 'no transfusion' rule is incorrect. Do I need to show you that celebrating a birthday is not an evil practice? Man made rules from a GB who makes itself the faithful and discreet slave by it's own authority.



It sounds as if you think that Moses had not demonstrated that he was their leader and supported by God or that Paul had not shown himself to be an apostles and supported by the other apostles.
Did they make rules that were not from God?
The GB appointed themselves as God's spokesmen and God has shown JWs ever since that God is not speaking through them. How many false dates does it take? How many misrepresentations of what would happen on those dates?



If I was a JW and believed what the GB taught I would probably not be a grumbler, but I am outside and even though I do not know it all I do see some basic things about the JWs that are not right and I see the GB as having enslaved God's people in a man made org. This of course is from Satan who does anything to attack Jesus servants and take them from the truth and use them against the truth if possible.
i noticed you said your comments are from satan .in effect ,aligning your self with satan .you have joined the anti-Christ , which have the intent to discredit the servants of the Christ.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You don't want to answer my comments on Acts 15 then.
No 2Cor 7:1 is not a law, it is what we are to do as Christians.
I really saw the usual Brian saying something but not saying scripture, so I got lost in the words really.
If you are to do something, it is a law, or rule. :facepalm: It is a necessary thing - a requirement.

Let me revisit what you said, and see if my head will take it in.
Brian2 said:
When I look at this in Acts 15 I see Jewish Christians, zealous for the law and wanting to made Gentile Christians obey the law for their salvation. This had to be dealt with in a way where the Gospel was not compromised and brought back to obeying law, but also in a way where the Jewish Christians could have fellowship with the Gentile Christians and not feel as if they were being made unclean to be near them.
I may disagree, because your use of the word law seem to imply that you think there is to be no law.
The scriptures say, specifically "the custom of Moses". Some translations use "law of Moses".
The Greek word used is custom.
Strong's Concordance
ethos: custom, a usage (prescribed by habit or law)
Original Word: ἔθος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-os)
Definition: custom, a usage (prescribed by habit or law)
Usage: a custom, habit; an institute, rite.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1485
éthos (from 1486 /éthō, "to be accustomed") – an unwritten custom; behavior based on tradition (a habit) fixed by the religious social life of a nation. See 1486 (ethō).

Strong's Greek: 1486. ἔθω (ethó) -- to be accustomed, part. custom
Strong's Concordance
ethó: to be accustomed, part. custom
Original Word: εἴωθα
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ethó
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-o)
Definition: to be accustomed, custom
Usage: I am accustomed, custom, what was customary.

In any case, it refers to the custom or law of Moses, regarding circumcision.

Brian2 said:
This was accomplished by basically saying that the Gentiles should follow the Noahide law, which it seems is what Gentiles did if they wanted to become Jewish converts.
Noahide law ???
I have not read this in scripture, so it must be one of your ideas. Where did you find it?
So I definitely disagree, as it is not scriptural.

The scriptures say,
(Acts 15:6-15) 6 So the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter. 7 After much intense discussion had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, you well know that from early days God made the choice among you that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 So why are you now making a test of God by imposing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we have faith that we are saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way that they are.” 12 At that the entire group became silent, and they began to listen to Barʹna·bas and Paul relate the many signs and wonders that God had done through them among the nations. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written:

So according to scripture, the apostles and elders, sought God's direction on the matter, by using his word, and holy spirit.

(Acts 15:22-29) 22 Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation, decided to send chosen men from among them to Antioch, along with Paul and Barʹna·bas; they sent Judas who was called Barʹsab·bas and Silas, who were leading men among the brothers. 23 They wrote this and sent it through them: “The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Ci·liʹcia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24 Since we have heard that some went out from among us and caused you trouble with what they have said, trying to subvert you, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

According to scripture, the GB made a decision, and sent by letter their final decision to all the congregations.
Just as is done by the GB of JWs.
Their letters actually start quite similarly too.

Brian2 said:
This decision was made for the purpose of peace and fellowship in the Church at the time and it was not part of any law that Christians needed to follow in order to have salvation.
How sad that you are so hung up on what's law and what's not law, that you miss what is important to see.
All instructions were vital to the salvation of those Christians. Otherwise they would be like you - complaining... and they would leave, and "not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled." (2 Timothy 4:3)

Brian2 said:
What does the GB do? It makes it into a law which you have to obey in order to have salvation (be in the WT) and extends it to the life saving blood transfusions, thus putting the lives of JWs at risk. Not even Jews refuse transfusions.
I see you are having trouble understanding basic English.
What's a necessary thing?
Necessary - Definition : required to be done, achieved, or present; needed; essential.
We are here once again. A requirement -
a thing that is needed or wanted.
a thing that is compulsory; a necessary condition.

You don't like laws very much, do you?
Does it have anything to do with anal and oral sexual desires? You could always become an Atheist, you know.
They will telll you, they are happy living without restrictions, and don't fear any so called wrath of God.
I hope you are not "hiding behind the cloth", because you know cloth won't save you right?
Joab grabbed hold of the horns of the altar, but that didn't save him. (1 Kings 2:28-31)

Brian2 said:
BUT can you see that the GB has lacked spiritual discernment and has turned the passage on it's head,,,,,,,,,,,,making a law out of something that was meant to stop the Legalistic Jewish Christians from making the law essential for salvation.
No. I don't see that.
That's your claim. Has nothing to do with the Bible. Nor the truth.

I might speak in hyperbole but the gist is true.
I see my brother in law and his smoking habit which prevented him from being a JW and I see man made rules to be and remain a JW and know that is not part of the gospel message.
Sentimentality has no place in obedience to God.
Haven't you learned anything from Saul. He claimed he obeyed God, and refused to do what God commanded ... but insisted that he obeyed, and it was not necessary for him to do certain things.
What did Samuel tell him?
(1 Samuel 15:22) . . .Samuel then said: “Does Jehovah take as much pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Look! To obey is better than a sacrifice. . .
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
It is not OK to hide what the Bible says but many of those rules are not what the Bible says, they are by the authority of the GB. Sort of reminds me of the scripture about changing times and laws, and reminds me of the Pharisees who taught man made laws.
We don't need to see a rule in the Bible, for it to be right.
So long as it is based on Bible principles, it can be a rule which is not against God's word.

For example, Paul said,
(1 Corinthians 7:10-13) 10 To the married people I give instructions, not I but the Lord, that a wife should not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled with her husband; and a husband should not leave his wife. 12But to the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord: If any brother has an unbelieving wife and she is agreeable to staying with him, let him not leave her; 13and if a woman has an unbelieving husband and he is agreeable to staying with her, let her not leave her husband.

Do you think if a brother decided to go against Paul's instructions he would be appointed an overseer in the congregation? No. He would not be kicked out. He could still attend the meetings.
Likewise, a person may want to carry the hippie look. That's his choice, but he would not be able to baptized as one of JWs. Why?
(1 Corinthians 11:14) Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man,
A scriptural principle is applied.
Whether he likes it or not, that's the way it is.
He could still attend meetings, like the brother that decides he wants a goatee or the hippie style.

If he is humble, he would do as this young man did...
*** w74 8/15 p. 510 It Was Just a Brief Printed Message ***
On the west coast of the United States in November 1971, a young, long-haired, bearded man walked into a Kingdom Hall. Searching for the right religion, he made it a point to hear different speakers who were prominent in their churches. So when he saw on a windowsill at his lodging place a handbill extending an invitation to a discourse at the Kingdom Hall, he decided to attend. As he noted that the lecturer represented the Watchtower Society, his interest was stirred as he thought that the speaker must be someone of importance.
At the Kingdom Hall, one of Jehovah’s witnesses approached the young man and, in the course of the conversation, offered to study the Bible with him. But he turned down this offer. However, at the conclusion of the talk, delivered by a traveling overseer, he agreed to give some thought to having a home Bible study and he remained for the Watchtower study and the traveling overseer’s concluding talk. Now he was not just willing to have a Bible study, but he even asked what he had to do to be baptized.
Plans were made to discuss the Bible the following evening, Monday, at the home of the Witness. The young man came, full of questions. On Thursday evening of that week still more questions were considered. As soon as his list of questions was answered, the young man said, “O.K., let’s study.”
The next day he was at the Kingdom Hall for the Theocratic Ministry School and Service Meeting, the two meetings scheduled for that evening. At first no one recognized him. He had trimmed his hair and shaved off his beard.—1 Cor. 11:14.
As he progressed in his study of the Bible he told the Witness that ‘he could never go from door to door,’ telling other people about the Scriptures. Soon, however, he was sharing in the house-to-house preaching work. After studying just five months he brought his life into harmony with God’s righteous requirements, dedicated himself to Jehovah and symbolized that dedication by water baptism.

I see you do not want to answer the scriptures about what was required in the early Church in order to be baptised.
I did answer that, before.
I specifically stated, repentance from dead works.
I don't know if anyone smoked cigars in the first century. Were they around?
I know video, computers, and cell phones were not around, so I know no one watched porn and needed to repent from that, but yes, those are dead works, and if you are in the habit of watching porn, the brother will try to help the interested one overcome that habit, so that he or she could repent, turn around and get baptized.

I have shown you that the 'no transfusion' rule is incorrect. Do I need to show you that celebrating a birthday is not an evil practice? Man made rules from a GB who makes itself the faithful and discreet slave by it's own authority.
You showed me nothing. You complained yes, but that's all you have been doing really, so please.
Start showing something - birthdays, Christmas, whatever you choose... scripturally.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
It sounds as if you think that Moses had not demonstrated that he was their leader and supported by God or that Paul had not shown himself to be an apostles and supported by the other apostles.
It sounds that way to you. Maybe you are listening to what's coming to your mind, instead of listening to me then.

Did they make rules that were not from God?
Did Moses and Paul make rules that were not from God?
Moses did not need to, because God spoke to him in person, so that when something came up where he did not know what to do, he just went to the tent, and put it to God, and God answered him from above the ark of the covenant.
For example, when the man was found gathering wood. Numbers 15:32-36

However, God did allow the judges to make their own decisions on matters, but based on the principles of justice and righteousness.
(Deuteronomy 16:18) “You should appoint judges and officers for each tribe in all the cities that Jehovah your God is giving you, and they must judge the people with righteous judgment.


...and yes, they made laws which the people were required to obey.

(Deuteronomy 17:8-13)
8 “If a case arises in one of your cities that is too difficult for you to judge, whether it is a case involving bloodshed or a legal claim that has been raised or a violent deed that has been committed or other matters of dispute, you should rise up and go to the place that Jehovah your God chooses. 9Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge serving in those days, and make your inquiry, and they will hand down the decision to you. 10Then you must act according to the decision that they hand down to you from the place that Jehovah chooses. Be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. 11You must act according to the law that they show you and according to the decision that they declare to you. Do not deviate from the decision that they will hand down to you, either to the right or to the left. 12The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who is ministering to Jehovah your God or to the judge must die. You must remove what is bad from Israel. 13 All the people will then hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore.

Of course, the judges would answer to God for any decision they made that went contrary to the principles of justice and righteousness, but that's a whole different matter.

The point is, they made rules that God did not state.
You must realize that things come up, and God is humble, in case you don't know, and he shows confidence in others - even imperfect men.

Most people are not like that.

The Christian congregation, principally the GB had to make decisions, on matters that came up, like what we just looked at in Acts 15, and the one I referred to, where Paul gave his own decision based on Bible principles.
No doubt ther are some more.
(Acts 16:4, 5) 4 As they traveled on through the cities, they would deliver to them for observance the decrees that had been decided on by the apostles and the elders who were in Jerusalem. 5 Then, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number day by day.

(Ephesians 4:11, 12) 11And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ,

Notice the apostles and elders in Jerusalem made these decision, and sent out those decrees and to all the congregations.
What's a decree Brian?
Decree - Definition : (noun) an official order issued by a legal authority. (verb) order (something) by decree.
If these are new to you, consider this a free lesson.

I thought looking up the Greek term might reveal something more, and sure enough, it does.
Strong's Greek: 1378. δόγμα (dogma) -- an opinion, (a public) decree
Strong's Concordance
dogma: an opinion, (a public) decree
Original Word: δόγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dogma
Phonetic Spelling: (dog'-mah)
Definition: an opinion, (a public) decree
Usage: a decree, edict, ordinance.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from dokeó
Definition
an opinion, (a public) decree
NASB Translation
decree (1), decrees (3), ordinances (1).

Strong's Greek: 1380. δοκέω (dokeó) -- to have an opinion, to seem
Strong's Concordance
dokeó: to have an opinion, to seem
Original Word: δοκέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dokeó
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-eh'-o)
Definition: to have an opinion, to seem
Usage: I think, seem, appear, it seems.

HELPS Word-studies
1380
dokéō – properly, suppose (what "seems to be"), forming an opinion (a personal judgment, estimate).

1380 /dokéō ("suppose") directly reflects the personal perspective (values) of the person making the subjective judgment call, i.e. showing what they esteem (or not) as an individual.

Well what do you know.
Looks like the scriptures just swallowed your entire argument. You know where it's going to end up next.
The GB in the first century made decisions which the congregations were required to obey.
Just as is done among JWs.

The GB appointed themselves as God's spokesmen and God has shown JWs ever since that God is not speaking through them. How many false dates does it take? How many misrepresentations of what would happen on those dates?
God appointed the faithful and discrete slave. The GB did not appoint themselves.
The scriptures say, God's spirit bears witness with their spirit. Romans 8:14-16

False dates? misrepresentations of what would happen on those dates?
More hot air?
Please, tell me about these false dates and misrepresentations of what would happen on those dates.

If I was a JW and believed what the GB taught I would probably not be a grumbler, but I am outside and even though I do not know it all I do see some basic things about the JWs that are not right and I see the GB as having enslaved God's people in a man made org. This of course is from Satan who does anything to attack Jesus servants and take them from the truth and use them against the truth if possible.
I think we have seen enough of you to know that all of this hot air is due to the fact that you know the JWs teach the truth from the Bible, but you don't like them because they expose the wishy washy "Christians" and their adulterated churches that let their members wallow in the filth of this world, by not condemning practices that you welcome, like anal and oral sex, and smoking and watching porn and gore.
So you are jealous, just like the Pharisees, who claimed Jesus had a demon, because of their envy.

As the man born blind, whom Jesus opened his eyes said, "This is certainly amazing, that you do not know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one. From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing at all.”
In answer they said to him: “You were altogether born in sin, and yet are you teaching us?” And they threw him out! (John 9:30-34)

Man, these guys had some serious issues. Lol. Like Brian here, I can't help but see the Pharisees when I read your posts. What a match.
If the GB of JWs were of Satan, they could not, from a handful of ministers grow to 8.5 million ministers preaching and teaching the message Jesus went declaring nearly 2000 yeara ago.
Satan can't do that. In fact he would like to stop it. :laughing:
Reminds me of what Jesus said. “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? (Matthew 12:25, 26)
 
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