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LDS Godhead /Christian Trinity

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
What is the actual difference inthe LDS belief in the Godhead and the "Catholic" Trinity?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
michel said:
What is the actual difference inthe LDS belief in the Godhead and the "Catholic" Trinity?

I don't know. I have never heard an understandable explanation of the trinity to compare our beliefs with.

We believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ both have physical bodies of flesh and bone, and that they are separate and distinct individuals. We believe the Holy Ghost is a male and has a spiritual body but not a physical one.

I would imagine that the physical bodies, and separateness of each are the major difference from the trinity doctrine.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
comprehend said:
I don't know. I have never heard an understandable explanation of the trinity to compare our beliefs with.

We believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ both have physical bodies of flesh and bone, and that they are separate and distinct individuals. We believe the Holy Ghost is a male and has a spiritual body but not a physical one.

I would imagine that the physical bodies, and separateness of each are the major difference from the trinity doctrine.

I ask because I think I saw a post of Katzpur's recently in which she said she is a non-Trinitarian. having just looked at the LDS description of the Godhead, it strikes me that it is so similar to the Catholic (as in universal) Christion church..............
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
michel said:
I ask because I think I saw a post of Katzpur's recently in which she said she is a non-Trinitarian. having just looked at the LDS description of the Godhead, it strikes me that it is so similar to the Catholic (as in universal) Christion church..............

We are a non-trinitarian church. You must forgive me but I have no idea what the Catholic view of the Trinity is. I know the LDS view quite well though. Maybe you could ask me specific things about our view?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Having asked the question, I came upon this site:-http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/trinity.html
(I don't know how reliable it is)



The Trinity concept is one that has been accepted by many Christian denominations for more than 1600 years. We as Latter-day Saints accept this "three in one" concept as far as it is referring to the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience. Because the Trinity is a vague term, and can mean simply "three in one." Therefore, it could be argued that Mormons actually do believe in a Trinity, however the Trinity to which most Evangelical Christians refer, contains several elements which the Latter-day Saints simply deny as being revealed truth from God. Having been created at the Council of Nicea in the form of the Athanasian creed 325 A.D. it states:
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is all one; the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty; and yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

This statement is a mass of inconsistencies and contradictions that has little to do with what the scriptures say God is like. We cannot understand God, our Eternal Father, unless we embrace his words in the scriptures. No other source, including the debated concepts of the Council of Nicea, are adequate. Now the most significant difference between the Mormon "Godhead" and the Evangelical "Trinity", lies within the idea that the three divisions are actually of one substance. In other words, according to the creedal Trinity, Christ is actually the Father in "essence", and the Father is the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is the Son since none of them can be considered separate in any other way than "persons" and they are supposed to be "one substance.". There really is no way around this fact, which is explicitly dictated in the Nicene creed. Of course Mormons believe in a "Godhead", which unlike the Trinity, is a term found in the Bible.
Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. "
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."







Frankly, reading the above just makes me more confused...........
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
michel said:
Having asked the question, I came upon this site:-http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/trinity.html
(I don't know how reliable it is)




The Trinity concept is one that has been accepted by many Christian denominations for more than 1600 years. We as Latter-day Saints accept this "three in one" concept as far as it is referring to the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience. Because the Trinity is a vague term, and can mean simply "three in one." Therefore, it could be argued that Mormons actually do believe in a Trinity, however the Trinity to which most Evangelical Christians refer, contains several elements which the Latter-day Saints simply deny as being revealed truth from God. Having been created at the Council of Nicea in the form of the Athanasian creed 325 A.D. it states:
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is all one; the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty; and yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

This statement is a mass of inconsistencies and contradictions that has little to do with what the scriptures say God is like. We cannot understand God, our Eternal Father, unless we embrace his words in the scriptures. No other source, including the debated concepts of the Council of Nicea, are adequate. Now the most significant difference between the Mormon "Godhead" and the Evangelical "Trinity", lies within the idea that the three divisions are actually of one substance. In other words, according to the creedal Trinity, Christ is actually the Father in "essence", and the Father is the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is the Son since none of them can be considered separate in any other way than "persons" and they are supposed to be "one substance.". There really is no way around this fact, which is explicitly dictated in the Nicene creed. Of course Mormons believe in a "Godhead", which unlike the Trinity, is a term found in the Bible.
Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. "
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."







Frankly, reading the above just makes me more confused...........

I am laughing because it made plenty of sense to me. I guess it helps that I have heard it all my life.

Snowbear explained it properly. The trinity says that 3 Gods are one in substance, LDS say that there are 3 Gods that are one in purpose but are separate and distinct individuals.

John 17:21-22
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now you would agree that it would be quite impossible for what Jesus is praying for here to happen if Jesus and the Father were one in substance. Clearly they are one in purpose, we could not become one with Jesus as He is one with the Father if he is meaning one in substance, (unless you want to say you become equal with God and join his substance).
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
[Part quote=comprehend]............unless you want to say you become equal with God and join his substance.[/quote]

That is a belief of mine.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
comprehend said:
Snowbear explained it properly. The trinity says that 3 Gods are one in substance, LDS say that there are 3 Gods that are one in purpose but are separate and distinct individuals.
Not quite what I said comprehend. I said One God in 3 persons, not 3 Gods. That's an important distinction, IMHO.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
comprehend said:
my mistake. I didn't know MSC's believed they could become equal with God. learn something new everyday.

No Problem.......MSC? = Main stream Christian ? because I am not "main stream".
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
comprehend said:
my mistake. I didn't know MSC's believed they could become equal with God. learn something new everyday.
What's an MSC?

EDIT: Ah, thanks Mich, lol.

Out of interest, would you say you believe we become equal with God, or that we become a part of God?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Snowbear said:
Not quite what I said comprehend. I said One God in 3 persons, not 3 Gods. That's an important distinction, IMHO.

I don't see how that is different but I will take your word for it as I don't get the trinity anyway.

does that mean that when Jesus died, the Father and Spirit died as well? or did Jesus not really die? Was Jesus his own Father? Did he pray to himself?

I have a hard time understanding how you look at those things in a trinitarian perspective.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Halcyon said:
What's an MSC?

EDIT: Ah, thanks Mich, lol.

Out of interest, would you say you believe we become equal with God, or that we become a part of God?

*blush*

Sorry, I didn't know how to differentiate LDS from the rest of Christianity when our doctrine is often different from everybody else so I started calling everybody else main stream Christians and then I got tired of typing the whole thing out so it became MSC. I'm lazy....
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
michel said:
What is the actual difference inthe LDS belief in the Godhead and the "Catholic" Trinity?
Our first "Article of Faith" states: "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." (The Articles of Faith, incidentally, come about as close to an official "creed" as you will find in our Church.) They are official statements of basic doctrine.

Our interpretation of what the relationship between these three personages is can be found in several places within the Book of Mormon:

"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." (2 Nephi 31:21)

"And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one." (3 Nephi 11:27)

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end." (Mormon 7:7)

We are frequently accused of believing in "three Gods," by individuals who believe in "the persons within one substance." According to the Athanasian Creed (which is, of course, essential to the Catholic faith), "...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.... So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God..."

We take issue with the creeds on which mainstream Christianity bases its doctrine of the Godhead. To begin with, we don't see God as a single substance, but as a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost who, while physically distinct from each other, are "one" in will and purpose, "one" in mind and heart. It would be absolutely impossible for us to stress or adequately convey the absoluteness of their unity. It is perfect beyond any kind of unity we can fully understand. They think, feel and act as "one."

They are "one God" in the same way that my husband as I are "one flesh" (except more perfectly, of course).
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
comprehend said:
I don't know. I have never heard an understandable explanation of the trinity to compare our beliefs with.

Try this:

From JamesThePersian
God is One in His Divine Essence, His substance if you like, but He is made up of three Hypostases. Hypostasis is usually translated into English as Person, but that's a fairly poor translation, it's more like personal essence, that which makes an individual a unique person. There really isn't a good analogy that can be used because this is utterly other than all beings that we have experience of in real life. The best way I can describe it is this: a human has one essence (that which makes him human) and one hypostasis (that which makes him uniquely him). God has one Essence (that which makes Him Divine) but three Hypostases. He is, then, One God (one individual) in three Hypostases and is always, simultaneously, One according to His essence but Three in His Hypostases. I'm sure that my description fails at many levels, but we were asked to explain in our own words so I can't call on the words of the Fathers. It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.

James explanation always seem to work better then what I have to say.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:
Try this:

From JamesThePersian
God is One in His Divine Essence, His substance if you like, but He is made up of three Hypostases. Hypostasis is usually translated into English as Person, but that's a fairly poor translation, it's more like personal essence, that which makes an individual a unique person. There really isn't a good analogy that can be used because this is utterly other than all beings that we have experience of in real life. The best way I can describe it is this: a human has one essence (that which makes him human) and one hypostasis (that which makes him uniquely him). God has one Essence (that which makes Him Divine) but three Hypostases. He is, then, One God (one individual) in three Hypostases and is always, simultaneously, One according to His essence but Three in His Hypostases. I'm sure that my description fails at many levels, but we were asked to explain in our own words so I can't call on the words of the Fathers. It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.

James explanation always seem to work better then what I have to say.
I'm going to try to tie LDS doctrine into your (i.e. James') explanation of the Trinity. First off, let me say that it's the best definition I've heard yet, and is far better than that water, steam, ice one which, is my opinion, is -- forgive my choice of words -- "worthless." :D

Since we Latter-day Saints never, ever use either "substance" or "essence" in speaking of God, you'll need to bear in mind that it's very difficult, if not impossible, for us to even think, much less articulately convey, our belief about God using either of those terms.

I'll start by attempting to paraphrase James. If I do so poorly, please know that it is not intentionally, because I really am trying to be accurate in my understanding. He said that God is One in His divine essence or substance, his essence being that which makes Him divine. Since I have a hard time thinking of essence or substance in non-physical terms (i.e. to me, both water and air are substances, even though air cannot be seen), I'd say that to the Latter-day Saints, it would be accurate to say that God is One in His divinity attributes. It is His perfect love, His absolute knowledge and power, etc. that make Him "God." Since the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all have these same attributes, and have them to the same extent (perhaps that is why you say they are "co-equal"), we can and do say that they are "One."

Now, with regards to His "hypostasis," we would agree that the Godhead is three hypostases, known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I think it is the fact that we see a being's "hypostasis" as describing both his physical and non-physical unique qualities. You are aware, of course, that we view the Father and the Son as both having a corporeal nature. I know that you believe the Father to be a being of spirit only. We believe that both of them are glorified, immortal beings of flesh and bones. Unless I am mistaken, you believe that Jesus ascended into Heaven as a physical, though immortal, being. I'm assuming you believe that He still has that physical body. Like you, we believe that the Holy Ghost is a being of spirit only.

In conclusion, we would probably agree with you in terms of God's divine essence, as long as we can qualify this to be referring exclusively to His non-physical attributes, i.e. the things about Him that make Him God and that make us human. We would agree that this one God is made up of three hypostases. We just believe that two of the three are corporeal and one is not, while you believe that one of the three is corporeal and two are not.

Does that make sense to anybody?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Katzpur said:
I'm going to try to tie LDS doctrine into your (i.e. James') explanation of the Trinity. First off, let me say that it's the best definition I've heard yet, and is far better than that water, steam, ice one which, is my opinion, is -- forgive my choice of words -- "worthless." :D

Since we Latter-day Saints never, ever use either "substance" or "essence" in speaking of God, you'll need to bear in mind that it's very difficult, if not impossible, for us to even think, much less articulately convey, our belief about God using either of those terms.

I'll start by attempting to paraphrase James. If I do so poorly, please know that it is not intentionally, because I really am trying to be accurate in my understanding. He said that God is One in His divine essence or substance, his essence being that which makes Him divine. Since I have a hard time thinking of essence or substance in non-physical terms (i.e. to me, both water and air are substances, even though air cannot be seen), I'd say that to the Latter-day Saints, it would be accurate to say that God is One in His divinity attributes. It is His perfect love, His absolute knowledge and power, etc. that make Him "God." Since the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all have these same attributes, and have them to the same extent (perhaps that is why you say they are "co-equal"), we can and do say that they are "One."

Now, with regards to His "hypostasis," we would agree that the Godhead is three hypostases, known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I think it is the fact that we see a being's "hypostasis" as describing both his physical and non-physical unique qualities. You are aware, of course, that we view the Father and the Son as both having a corporeal nature. I know that you believe the Father to be a being of spirit only. We believe that both of them are glorified, immortal beings of flesh and bones. Unless I am mistaken, you believe that Jesus ascended into Heaven as a physical, though immortal, being. I'm assuming you believe that He still has that physical body. Like you, we believe that the Holy Ghost is a being of spirit only.

In conclusion, we would probably agree with you in terms of God's divine essence, as long as we can qualify this to be referring exclusively to His non-physical attributes, i.e. the things about Him that make Him God and that make us human. We would agree that this one God is made up of three hypostases. We just believe that two of the three are corporeal and one is not, while you believe that one of the three is corporeal and two are not.

Does that make sense to anybody?

You guys believe Jesus still has his physical body?
If that is true then they must also hold that the Father and Son are separate and distinct individuals. yes?

Victor: Thank you for the explanation. That was an excellent explanation. I think James gave a good reason why I never really get it...
It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind

Apparently it is irrational?

Now I thought I understood what James was saying. Ancient philosophy was half of my double major in undergrad and the essense idea I can grasp. It is much like the divine "stuff" of pre-socratic thought.

It sounds like what James is saying is that the essense is comprable to one's nature or composition (that which makes us human is that "stuff" which we are composed of?) and the hypostasis is a unique conscious (that which makes us "other" than everything else).

my question for you is, do the three separate hypstasis' share the same essence or do they have identical but distince essences?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
comprehend said:
my question for you is, do the three separate hypstasis' share the same essence or do they have identical but distince essences?
I know, I'm not Victor... I'm pretty sure that what he and James were both saying is that they have "One" essence.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Katzpur said:
I know, I'm not Victor... I'm pretty sure that what he and James were both saying is that they have "One" essence.

do they have definite boundaries? Is it "one" because it is the same "kind" of stuff or because their stuff occupies the same space?
 
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