Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Here is a Christian commentary on Matthew 23 and above it a Hebrew version of Matthew. Says pretty much what I stated about what the author of the Gospel of Matthew was trying to say. I guess there is no standard to how the NT is to be correctly understood and pretty much anyone can interpret it any way they like.

Maybe I can even suggest that the Hebrew translation of the NT is more accurate than the Greek. Maybe I can even suggest that there is no need to know Greek to understand the NT. I can read the Hebrew version and come to the conclusion that the author meant that the Pharisees and Scribes literally were sitting in the Seat of Moses because Hashem gave them the authority to be there. Which in turn would mean that they had the text and transmission right, because Hashem would not have placed them in the Seat of Moses, if they didn't have it right.

That is unless someone is going to tell me that there is a Christian standard of what is the correct NT interpretation and that only certain types of Yeshu/Yeshua/Jesus/Yahshua/etc. beleivers have the correct NT way and understanding.....

Here is more information from those Netzarim guys who beleive in Jesus. They don't seem to like the Christian LXX very much. Again, they also support my OP that Christians, of various types of standards, and not all Christian standards agree with each other.

Clear said:

What value are such statements or associated religious claims if authentic history is allowed to be distorted so easily, or if, in the face of obvious error, the error itself can be attributed to support a religious agenda?

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Greetings,

These Netzarim Christian guys seem to think your version of Christianity is distored. See what they say below. He also likes writing with various color schemes, bold, and such. You may find out you have something in common with them. You may want to contact them in order to straighten things out because if you go all the way ot the bottom they claim they are only group truly following Jesus correctly.

Last up for the Jesus beleiving Netzarim guys, let's see what they say about the Pharisees. Maybe, I will start posting what the Hebrew Roots Movement people say.

Ehav4Ever said:

Last up for the Jesus beleiving Netzarim guys, let's see what they say about the Pharisees. Maybe, I will start posting what the Hebrew Roots Movement people say.

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Remember that Jesus taught Jews and that the Netzarim were all Jews. Unlike gentiles, Jews are required to observe all the laws of the written Torah and oral Torah, so of course that is what Jesus and the Netzarim taught.

Ehav4Ever said:

Given that the various church councils were the ones who decided what material went into the New Testament and what information did not go into it – this alone provides a very critical reason why Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are required by Hashem/Torah to ignore such a text due to its historical and theological content and the lack of some specific requirements given by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

It further shows, based on how the early Christian Church chose to structure the text, that it was not meant for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews. I.e. if Christians like it and accept it is not my place to judge that BUT Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have mitzvoth to avoid it. The historical and theological information and claims found in the Greek derived NT texts from start to finish makes it suspect and thus a Torath Mosheh Jew and Orthodox Jew consider it (פסול) and (עבודה זרה) for us.

That being said, you may ask what structure and content would have given a Torath Mosheh Jew, at any time in history, a reason to even consider reading it? The answer to that is simple and thus what follows is a less problematic structure and content that would have made more sense to construct from a Jewish perspective.

1. The Gospel of Jesus "written in Hebrew/Aramaic by Jesus himself" containing:
   • A description of when Jesus wrote the text and for what purpose.
   • An autobiography of Jesus’s early life including a clear description of his family and verifiable names of who he learned Hebrew, Torah, and Halakha from.
   • A description of why Torath Mosheh Jews should listen to Jesus, his teachings, and his students. I.e. Jesus’s description of how listening to him and reading his gospel, and those of his students, are included in mitzvoth from the Torah.
   • A mitzvah by mitzvah detail of each of the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah and the practical application of each one in in all situations.
   • A dictionary of ancient Hebrew words, weights, and measurements. For example, what is Hashem’s definition of (כזית).
   • A review of Jesus’s Torah scroll that he was required to transcribe in his lifetime and who would be preserving it into the future. This would include his analysis of writing on (גוויל) vs. (קלף).
   • An identification of all the individuals who would be leading his Jewish followers in the future and what texts written about him were accetable.
   • A description of how Jesus got married, the traditions, and how his Jewish followers were to marry and raise their children. (עורך חיים ותלמוד תורה שלו)
   • A detailed description of future Christian movements that would not represent his teachings.
   • Jesus’s description of how the universe/reality works. I.e. Jesus’s teachings on astrobiology, biology, chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, cosmology, history, evolution, etc.
   • Lastly, Jesus’s specific advice for how Torath Mosheh Jews should survive/escape the remainder of the Roman occupation, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Mamluks, that Nazis, and western assimilation.
2. The Gospels of all 12 of Jesus’s Jewish disciples, written in Hebrew/Aramaic, covering the following topics:
   • Their family history (father’s name and grandfather’s name as well as the tribe they came from) also who they married and the names of their students.
   • The people they learned Torah from before Jesus.
   • The teachings that Jesus taught them on all of the 613 mitzvoth.
   • Their formula for surviving the Roman occupation.
   • A description of how they tie their tzitzith and which tefillin type they used. I.e. (רש"י \ רמב"ם) vs. (רבנו תם).
   • A description of the Torah scroll that Jesus was required to write and also how they made copies of it, as they were required to do by Jewish law.
   • Their commentary on the gospel of Jesus.
   • All of the writings of Paul and Revelations would not be included such a text.

If the NT had been structured, completely and not partially, in the above way then maybe it would be something that Torath Mosheh Jews would consider reading and investigating. YET, because it was not written in the above format Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have a mitzvah from the Torah to ignore it.

Now I know that some Christians will feel like none of this matters and for someone who is not a Torath Mosheh Jew or an Orthodox Jew it may be fine that it doesn't matter for them, YET, it is a requirement for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews to consider such a matter. Essentially, the NT authors and compilers had only one chance to get it right with Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews and ....... we all know what the results are.

I hope that helps.

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I dont know if this has been asked before, but why did it have to be written in Hebrew/Aramaic?

Clear said : "POST ONE OF TWO

REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT JESUS THE MESSIAH SUPPORTED THE PHARISEES AND THE SCRIBES AND THEIR TEXT

@2ndpillar claimed : “Apparently, according to Jeremiah 8:8, the scribes of the Jews, whose writings are found in the different Talmuds, can make the Law into a lie,…”

@Ehav4Ever said : “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both). The author of Matthew 23:1-3 makes this clear…” (post #5

Clear pointed out Matthew 23 does NOT tell us that Jesus supported the Pharisees and Scribes and their specific text. In fact, Matthew 23 severely criticizes the Pharisees and Scribes as hypocrites who do not practice the law they preach and Matthew 23 says NOTHING of the correctness of the text.

Matthew 23 starts out in the context of the prior question about the greatest commandment and compares that to the Pharisees that are disobeying the very moral laws they professed to teach.

The Messiah said : "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat, so practice and observe what they say, but not what they do; for they preach but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger, ....... Matthew 23 : 1 -

While the Jewish leaders were claiming to be purveyors of the Law, they were outed as purveyors of hypocrisy where they claimed to be the fount of wisdom and purveyors of the law but this was, according to the Messiah in his many examples, a lie.

The situation of the Pharisees was a good example of the Prophet Jeremiahs statement : “How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. (Jeremiah 8:8)

It is untrue to imply that “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both).” (Evah4ever in post #507)

The Messiah warns the people NOT to be like the Pharisees and Scribes who bound laws and burdens on others but did not even try to live those burdens themselves.

The Messiah spoke of the changes the Pharisees and Scribes made to an originally pure religion and eventually pure religion evolved into a religion of self congratulation and self-honor and appearances and desiring honor from men.

He compared this man-made religious interpretation of the pharisees that was self-serving to the earlier religion that should have been one of service to others instead of self-serving.

The Messiah says “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! Because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men…” This is hardly “support” for the Pharisees and scribes!

He repeats this same sentence twice and calls them “blind guides” and “blind fools” who value money more than religion.

He repeats a third time “Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because they have “neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith: These you ought to have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel!”

A fourth time the Messiah says “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. He tells them to repent and “first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

A fifth time he says “Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! “ and he compares them to tombs that are outwardly beautiful, but within full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. “So you also outwardly aper righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

A sixth time the Messiah says “Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” and he explains that they did not listen to the prophets but instead, persecuted them. He calls them “serpents and a “brood of vipers”

He says he had sent prophets to them, but they killed and stoned those sent to them to repair and restore them to correct religion.

In the face of the many, many criticisms leveled by the Messiah against the Pharisees and Scribes, it seems patently false to claim that “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both).” (Evah4ever in post #507)



JEWISH HISTORIES THEMSELVES CONFIRM THE MANY SINS OF THESE JEWS
Historically, The Jewish histories confirm that the Messiah was correct in his criticisms of the many sins the Pharisees and Scribes were guilty of which ultimately lead to the loss of their temple, the loss of prophets and prophetic gifts, the loss of revelation, the loss of the ability to create scripture from revelation, the loss of a fully functioning priesthood and the shift to rabbinic religion, and other punishments.

The Jewish poster rosends (in post #213) offered a link to a Jewish historical site that explains some of these sins of the Jews that come from Jewish history itself :

What’s the truth about….the Cause of the Destruction of the Beit Hamikdash? - Jewish Action


This Jewish site confirms many of the descriptions the Messiah gave of the sins of the Jews and further confirms the falsehood of the claim that “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both).” (Evah4ever in post #507)



THE MULTIPLE TYPES OF SINS THE JEWS COMMITTED FOR WHICH THEY WERE PUNISHED PARALLELS THE MESSIAHS LIST


This Jewish historical list of additional sins included the three cardinal sins which were :

The Jews abandoned original religion and turned to man made religion and worshipped idols

The Jews engaged in prohibited sexual relations which were forbidden. In fact, the Jews committed sexual immorality to the extent where “they were not ashamed of one another” as your link pointed out.

The Jews committed murder.


The Jewish historical link described additional sins Jewish literature indicates Jews were guilty of including :

The Jews neglecting the agricultural sabbatical year,

The Jews engaged in “love of money and each one hates his neighbor”

Their Judges were not rendering appropriate judgments.

The Jewish literature gives specific examples of Cardinal sins such as one Priest fighting with another for the right to work on the Holy Altar. “Rampant Idolatry” rather than isolated idolatry.

The Jews were guilty of the desecration of the Sabbath in the temple.

The Jews were guilty of the neglect of reading the Shema.

The Jews were guilty of neglecting the education of children.

The Jews were guilty of the equalization of small and great.

The Jews were guilty of the neglect of Torah study.

The Jews were guilty of the actual abandonment of Torah.

The Jews were guilty of the neglect of recitation of birchat Ha Torah.

The Jews were guilty of “wasting” time and relying on “vanities and nothingness”.

The Jews were guilty of the type of elitism where they treated others who did not exactly conform to the beliefs as “heretics”

The Jews were guilty of gossip.

These are examples of the types of and the multitude of sins, many of which parallel the very sins the Messiah criticized the Pharisees and Scribes for.

It is untrue to say that “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both).” (Evah4ever in post #507)


POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear said (continued ) POST TWO OF TWO

HISTORICAL LITERATURE CONFIRMS BOTH THE MESSIANIC HISTORY AND THE JEWISH HISTORIES ON THESE POINTS.

These reasons (and more reasons) for God punishing Israel with loss of the temple, loss of a fully functioning priesthood; loss of revelation; loss of prophets and prophetic gifts and accompanying losses are described in other historical literature as well.

We can compare the Jewish records with historical records and the historical predictions parallel the Jewish records with unsettling similarity.

For examples :

Levi, taught his sons about the terrible sins their descendants would commit.

“And now, my children, I know from the writings of Enoch that in the end-time you will act impiously against the Lord, setting your hands to every evil deed; because of you, your brothers will be humiliated and among all the nations you shall become the occasion for scorn. For your father, Israel, is pure with respect to all the impieties of the chief priests, [who laid their hands on the Savior of the world,] as heaven is pure above the earth; and you should be the lights of Israel as the sun and the moon.

For what will all the nations do if you become darkened with impiety? You will bring down a curse on our nation, because you want to destroy the light of the Law which was granted to you for the enlightenment of every man, teaching commandments which are opposed to God’s just ordinances.

You plunder the Lord’s offerings; from his share you steal choice parts, contemptuously eating them with whores. You teach the Lord’s commands out of greed for gain; married women you profane; you have intercourse with whores and adulteresses. You take gentile women for your wives and your sexual relations will become like Sodom and Gomorrah.

You will be inflated with pride over your priesthood, exalting yourselves not merely by human standards but contrary to the commands of God. With contempt and laughter you will deride the sacred things. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi 14:1-8;



“Now I have come to know that for seventy weeks you shall wander astray and profane the priesthood and defile the sacrificial altars. You shall set aside the law and nullify the words of the prophets by your wicked perversity.

You persecute just men: and you hate the pious; the word of the faithful you regard with revulsion. A man who by the power of the Most High renews the Law you name ‘Deceiver,’ and finally you shall plot to kill him, not discerning his eminence; by your wickedness you shall take innocent blood on your heads…Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi 16:1-3;


“1 And when the times of exposure come near and punishment arises through kings who (though) sharing their crimes yet punish them, 2 then they themselves will be divided as to the truth. 3 Consequently the word was fulfilled that they will avoid justice and approach iniquity; and they will pollute the house of their worship with the customs of the nations; and they will play the harlot after foreign gods. For they will not follow the truth of God, but certain of them will pollute the high altar by … the offerings which they place before the Lord.

They are not (truly priests (at all), but slaves, yea sons of slaves. 5 For those who are the leaders, their teachers, in those times will become admirers of avaricious persons, accepting (polluted) offerings, and they will sell justice by accepting bribes. 6 Therefore their city and the full extent of their dwelling places will be filled with crimes and iniquities. For they will have in their midst judges who will act with impiety toward the Lord and will judge just as they please.....ch 6 2 They will perform great impiety in the Holy of Holies... Testament of Moses 5:1-6 and p 930 6:2


“And this testimony will be heard as a testimony against them, for they will forget all of my commandments, everything which I shall command them, and they will walk after the gentiles and after their defilement and shame.

And they will serve their gods, and they will become a scandal for them and an affliction and a torment and a share. And many will be destroyed and seized and will fall into the hand of the enemy because they have forsaken my ordinances and my commandments and the feasts of my covenant and my Sabbaths and my sacred place, which I sanctified for myself among them, and my tabernacle and my sanctuary, which I sanctified from myself in the midst of the land so that I might set my name upon it and might dwell (there).” Jubilees 1:9-10;

The admission of the Jews themselves in their own historical records as well as other historical records describing the Sins of the Jews which resulting in the disastrous loss of characteristics of ancient religion are part of history itself.


It is in the context of history that the prophet Ezra said : “Hear these words, O Israel. At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt and they were delivered from there, and received the Law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them. then land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32….

Thus, I think the claim that the Messiah “supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both). “ is a gross, obvious distortion of the actual narrative of the text in Matthew 23 where the text actually “makes clear” that the Pharisees and Saducees are doing evil thing and abusing and changing the religion their ancestors had been given and history explains why this original religion was taken away from them.

The claim that “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both).” (Evah4ever in post #507) Is completely untrue.


It is also untrue to claim that “…the NT gospel author of John claimed that Jesus told the Samaritan woman that the Jews had things correct, Tanakh wise and in general…” (Ehav4ever)


THE DISTORTION OF HISTORY DECREASES CREDIBILITY OF THAT HISTORY
The tendency to misrepresent and distort history and of its texts to support a personal or religious agenda form a powerful reason to be suspicious of history offered by individuals or an entire movement who is willing to distort history to support an agenda.

When Romans 1:25 relates that individuals “…exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator…” the principle of distorting a text may be one of the methods whereby historical religious truth is changed and no longer valid history. Once the history is changed, then the conclusions based on distorted history can no longer be trusted.


For example, after having been show that the claim that “…Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both).” was untrue, Evha4ever writes :

“I am so glad you wrote this statemet. You have also proven out the OP”.

What value are such statements or associated religious claims if authentic history is allowed to be distorted so easily, or if, in the face of obvious error, the error itself can be attributed to support a religious agenda?

Clear



EHAV4EVERS RESPONSES

Ehav4ever said : "Here are a group of Yeshu/Jesus believers, who call themselves the Netzarim, who claim that the Jesus agreed with the Pharisess and Scribes from Beith Hillel. (post #520)

this is another good example of offering a distortion of history by offering part truth.
If you read what Joshua Ben Joseph Ben David of Nazrat said (which you highlighted in post #524), he opposed a supposed effort by the Saints to end Oral transmission of the Law. To imply that Agreement on one detail (unrelated to your claim) means "support" for the parties and actions is simply another misuse of the data.

To apply this new claim you will need to demonstrate where Jesus agreed and supported this effort and explain why this specific effort means Jesus “supported the Pharisees and Scribes” or that the Torah text they had at that time was without error.


Ehav4ever said : "Here is a Christian commentary on Matthew 23 and above it a Hebrew version of Matthew. Says pretty much what I stated … (post #521)

Again another distortion and half-contexted statement. The Messiah honors the Seat of Moses and the authority it represented and the proper use of it. While Pharisees possessed the position, they abused it and the Messiah did not “honor” or “support” this abuse. The Messiah may have honored the temple as well but history records he cleaned it out and described the abuses there as having made the temple a “den of Thieves”. There is a difference between honor of the ancient religion and honoring the later abuses of it.


Ehav4ever said : "Here is more information from those Netzarim guys who beleive in Jesus. (post #522)
Umm, this is irrelevant and doesn’t make your prior claim that the Messiah "supported" the Pharisees and Scribes true.


Ehav4ever said : "These Netzarim Christian guys seem to think your version of Christianity is distored. (post #523)
Again, this is another irrelevant redirection that doesn’t make your prior claim true.



Ehav4ever said : "Last up for the Jesus beleiving Netzarim guys, let's see what they say about the Pharisees.(post #524)

Again, another good example of distortion of history.
How does it make sense for the author to insist that when there is a “blank spot” in data, it must be filled in “with Pharisaic rabbinic, not Christian doctrines…”? This is simply an agenda driven suggestion that further distorts authentic history. It distort history when all "blank spots" in Christian history or tradition must be filled in with Jewish doctrine.

The examples do not show us how the Messiah “supported” the "Pharisees and Scribes” as you claimed. Instead, the examples give readers multiple examples of how you are willing to distort historical data to support your own religious agenda.

Clear
ακτζτζσεω

Koldo said:

I dont know if this has been asked before, but why did it have to be written in Hebrew/Aramaic?

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Greetings,

Great question. The reasons are the following.

1. Because of the fact that the Torah that Mosheh ben-Amram transcribed and passed on to the Israelis/Jews of his generation was in a language called (עברית) Ivrith (Ancient Hebrew).
   • In the language was included nuances and hints to understand the meaning based on 13 principles that Hashem gave to Mosheh ben-Amram make particular decisions.
   • Even the spacings, gaps, and word count included in the Hebrew text tell a story and methods of exegesis.
2. When Hashem gave the Torah to Mosheh ben-Amram one of the requirements that was passed along as a part of the Oral Transmission - was a methodology for Israelis/Jews to determine if someone was a false prophet or false teacher.
   • I.e. set a high standard or bar for someone to meet and "reduce" the types of people who can fool Israelis/Jews.
   • For example, someone shows up and tries to convince me, "in translation", that the creation story of the Torah says First day, Second day, Third day, Fourth day, etc. I would immediately know, based on the Ivrith (Ancient Hebrew) text that they were either a) lying or b) they don't know the Torah because the Ivrith text in translation actually states: Day one, Second day, Third day, Fourth day, etc. A person who knows Hebrew knows the signicance of the Hebrew text stating Day one and not First day.
3. (עברית) Ivrith is a national Torath Mosheh langauge. There is a pride that comes along with that and literally every king of Israel did the work to learn and teach in Hebrew.
   • Even today a leader of the Jewish, internationally, is more respected when they can communicate in Hebrew.
4. In the book of Nechanyah 13:25 a situation is described where some of the exiles of the region of Yehudah returned from exile and a situation arose where "certain" Jewish men had married wives who did not convert to Torath Mosheh. Those same Jewish men had children with those non-converted wives and the command that they were given by Ezra was to send those wives and children back who didn't want to take up Torah Mosheh.
   • In the description of those wives in children - the women are called by Nechamya Ashdodiyoth and it mentions that children of those unions only spoke half Ashdodith and that they did not know Yehudith (יהודית) "i.e. the language of the Jews" and instead spoke the langauges of their mother's nationalities.
   • Because of the division that the sitaution with those wives and children who didn't want to take on the Torah was causing, including the langauge that came along with it, were sent back to the nations their mothers came from.
   • In verse 30 it is stated that the Kohanim and the Levites where cleansed of anything "foreign." (וְטִהַרְתִּים, מִכָּל-נֵכָר)

Why Aramaic, you ask.

1. During the 2nd Temple period Aramaic was a common language spoken in various regions in Israel. The book of Ezra and Daniel are partially written in Aramaic.
2. Aramaic comes from a similar root system as Ivrith (Hebrew) does so it is easier to translate between the two.
   • A common rule was, and even today, twice in Hebrew and once in Aramaic.
   • I.e. the Hebrew trumps even the Aramaic that spoken at that time.

The reality is that a lot of the Tanakh based debates on RF would easily resolved by going to the Hebrew Tanakh. The reality is that many of the "biblical" based debates on RF that take place are debates not on what the Hebrew Tanakh actually says but isntead how one wants to "interpret" various English translations.

Consider the following:
Would an American judicial court or legislature accept German translation of the constitution from someone who didn't know and never followed American law in English? Would they not always default to the English constitution to make legal decisions and disregard the German translation?

rosends said:

just admit that you were wrong

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Admit also the last three verses of that chapter. Admit also the concept of the pledge. Admit the rest of the context of the chapters you quote from, instead of giving partial truths.

54) 16: 'The Impossible Parables' [MATTHEW 13]: 'A Rabbi Cross Examines the New Testament'

90) 26 - Matthew 23: 'End Times Fulfilled?' with Rabbi Michael Skobac

user4578 said:

Admit also the last three verses of that chapter. Admit also the concept of the pledge. Admit the rest of the context of the chapters you quote from, instead of giving partial truths.

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If you are speaking to me then you should provide a bit more detail so I have some sort of idea as to what you are saying. If you have a question about anything I have quoted from the biblical text, then please explain with a bit more detail. Otherwise, there is no way to respond.

If you are not speaking to me, but instead piggy backing on what I said to someone else, then you should tag that other person.

rosends said:

Wait. First you claimed something wasn't textual and now you move the goalposts once you are shown to be wrong? So noted. If you want to start a different thread about non-sacrificial atonement or about non-temple based service just admit that you were wrong and we can move forward.

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I didn't claim something wasn't textual. I'm conversant with the Law.

I'm not "moving the goal posts", I started with Moses says you must have blood atonement, you said, "there are other atonements", I'm pointing to Jesus Christ, because there is no Temple.

BilliardsBall said:

I didn't claim something wasn't textual. I'm conversant with the Law.

I'm not "moving the goal posts", I started with Moses says you must have blood atonement, you said, "there are other atonements", I'm pointing to Jesus Christ, because there is no Temple.

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Except the texts support that Moses says "you don't need to have blood atonement" -- I quoted those for you, remember? You left me those three blank spaces and asked for textual proof which I provided.

Now you say that human blood/sacrifice has some sort of value (yuch) and bring up the whole question of a temple. Well, there was no temple in the desert when the rules were made, and there was no Jesus, and yet there was atonement. And Jesus wasn't sacrificed in the temple, wasn't fit to be a sacrifice (even were he an animal, which he wasn't), and died when there was a temple so other atonement sacrifices were still being given.

And all of this Jesus stuff comes from fictional texts and not the Tanach.

rosends said:

Except the texts support that Moses says "you don't need to have blood atonement" -- I quoted those for you, remember? You left me those three blank spaces and asked for textual proof which I provided.

Now you say that human blood/sacrifice has some sort of value (yuch) and bring up the whole question of a temple. Well, there was no temple in the desert when the rules were made, and there was no Jesus, and yet there was atonement. And Jesus wasn't sacrificed in the temple, wasn't fit to be a sacrifice (even were he an animal, which he wasn't), and died when there was a temple so other atonement sacrifices were still being given.

And all of this Jesus stuff comes from fictional texts and not the Tanach.

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If that is true--which it isn't--please answer the questions I'm asking you [yet again]:

I want to do well in Heaven's court when I go--exactly how many mitzvot of which sort must I do?

Should I live as a Reform? Conservative? Orthodox? If Orthodox, what is the fate of less religious brothers?

BilliardsBall said:

If that is true--which it isn't--please answer the questions I'm asking you [yet again]:

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You asked me this question already?

BilliardsBall said:

I want to do well in Heaven's court when I go--exactly how many mitzvot of which sort must I do?

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Unanswerable because the math God does when judging you is beyond my ability and your ability and includes variables no human can know, account for or calculate. That's why we don't try to haggle with God. We do what we are commanded to do to the best of our abilities and we ask forgiveness for what we don't do or do wrong.

BilliardsBall said:

Should I live as a Reform? Conservative? Orthodox? If Orthodox, what is the fate of less religious brothers?

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You should live as you are, a non-Jew. Why try to be something you are not?

rosends said:

Except the texts support that Moses says "you don't need to have blood atonement" -- I quoted those for you, remember? You left me those three blank spaces and asked for textual proof which I provided.

Now you say that human blood/sacrifice has some sort of value (yuch) and bring up the whole question of a temple. Well, there was no temple in the desert when the rules were made, and there was no Jesus, and yet there was atonement. And Jesus wasn't sacrificed in the temple, wasn't fit to be a sacrifice (even were he an animal, which he wasn't), and died when there was a temple so other atonement sacrifices were still being given.

And all of this Jesus stuff comes from fictional texts and not the Tanach.

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The day of atonement was fulfilled in Jesus. It points to the Messiah. Jesus is everywhere in the Old Testament. Why We Observe Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) | Beit Lechem Messianic Jewish Congregation, Bible Study and Fellowship | Downey, California

“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny [anah] yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you—because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins” (Leviticus 16:29–30, also 23:27).

God set aside one day of the year to keep us ever-mindful of the great cost of our sin, the significance of His coming Day of Judgment and our part in His great plan of salvation.

The 10th day of the Hebrew month of Tishrei is Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement), the holiest day of all appointed days of the Lord, and the one day of the year when Israel was allowed to make atonement (receive forgiveness) for their collective sins as a nation, as well as for their individual sins.

While it may seem like God gave this holy day only to Jewish People, Believers in Yeshua (Jesus) as final atoning sacrifice observe it for significant spiritual reasons. Let us count the ways:

Yom Kippur reminds us of the personal cost of our sin.
Receiving forgiveness from sin comes with great personal costs, and God’s sacrificial system is a dramatic illustration of that cost.

Throughout the year, the men of Israel bought their own pure and unblemished animals—lambs, birds, goats, and bulls—and brought them to the Temple court. There, they laid their hands on the animal and confessed their sins, thereby transferring their transgressions onto the blameless animal before personally killing it. Imagine killing an animal that you paid for every time you take tell a fib or even break a law that you weren’t aware of.

Yet, it is blood that gives life. And since the wages of sin is death, something living has to die. So, in God’s system of reconciliation, blood makes atonement for sin (Leviticus 17:11).

Blood poured all day every day in the Temple of Jerusalem. Yet that blood only atoned for unintentional, accidental sins and only for a time, not for eternity.

On Yom Kippur, however, even intentional, willful sins were atoned for, but still only for a time, not for eternity. On this day, the High Priest killed a blameless goat as the sacrifice. But also on this day, he laid his hands on another unblemished goat and transferred the sins of the nation to it.

Bearing the weight of the sins of the people, this “scapegoat” was set free in the wilderness, taking the sins of the nation with it (Leviticus 16:21–22).

Yom Kippur reminds us of the indescribable cost of Yeshua’s sacrifice as payment for our sins.
Today, there is no Temple to perform these atoning sacrifices, and so no scapegoat is sent forth to free the people of Israel of their sins either. But there is God’s Suffering Servant, Messiah—the blameless, spotless, unblemished “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world,” as Yochanan (John the Baptist) said.

As our Lamb of God, Yeshua “poured out Himself to death” and became “an offering for sin,” bearing the iniquities of the people, and “by His stripes (wounds)” we are healed from the eternal suffering that our sin requires (Isaiah 53).

The people of Israel understood that this Suffering Servant described in Isaiah 53 is Messiah.

“He, Messiah, shall intercede for man’s sins, and the rebellious, for his sake, shall be forgiven” (quoted in the Jerusalem Targum on Isaiah 53:12, an Aramaic translation of the Scriptures read in synagogues to the people).

And in the Midrash (a collection of Jewish commentaries) also states that this Suffering Servant is the long-awaited Messiah:

“And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them as it is written, ‘By his stripes we were healed,’ and ‘he carried the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.’” (Genesis Rabbah on Isaiah 53:5, 12).

The apostles understood that this Suffering Servant is Yeshua. Rabbi Shaul (Paul) said,

“God presented Yeshua as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Yeshua sacrificed his life, shedding his blood” (Romans 3:25).

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Skywalker said:

The day of atonement was fulfilled in Jesus.

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Yom Kippur doesn't need any fulfiling.

Skywalker said:

The day of atonement was fulfilled in Jesus. It points to the Messiah. Jesus is everywhere in the Old Testament. Why We Observe Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) | Beit Lechem Messianic Jewish Congregation, Bible Study and Fellowship | Downey, California

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A day isn't fulfilled.
Jesus is no where.
Next random comment?