nPeace
Veteran Member
Why are you ticked off at a non-existent being, and something inside someone's head?
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Why do you believe in God of Abraham?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Imagine me trying to tell Richard D. about Biology if I learned Biology from a 17th century alchemist. Dan Barker got his education through Christian evangelicals who supported creation science and believed that anything in the bible must be right. Neither he nor the honorable biologist Richard Dawkins has any estimable opinion about 'Yahweh' or 'Worship' or whether the story of the destruction of the Canaanites is real or even supposed to be considered good by Jews. They don't belong in this conversation and have no status. They don't know what worship is or how it works or if it involves adoration or what. They assume, and then they talk like they know. This is an embarrassment for Richard Dawkins which will tarnish his historical name though he will be honored for defending truth to the best of his ability. Barker will always be just Barker.
Your ideas about it are evangelical Christian as are Barker's. These ideas have a misunderstanding about the Amalekites, about war in scripture, about worship, too. Worship is a modern word with no relevance in the past. What worship once was is very different. Also in scripture sometimes definitions are turned upside down and peace is considered a kind of warfare. This bleeds over into Christian scripture later. You can't read scripture one time and be an expert. Archeology supports this, by the way. The Canaanites were not wiped out but banded together, etc. Later on the gnostics demonize the 'Lord', but they aren't under the delusion that the Amalekites were literally massacred. Instead in the Secret Book of John we find their criticism against the creator of the physical world is something else, that the world is fallen and imperfect. They know better than Dawkins or Barker and have a little more understanding of what words mean. Its an embarrassment eventually for Dawkins, but Barker is just ridiculous.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
You obviously are much more textually trained than I am and you delve into matters I have no been trained for so we can't have a meaningful conversation on the finer points of your rebuttal. All I can say is we don't know the full extent of Barker's training in scriptural exegesis and so cannot say, "Oh, he not properly trained to understand". Far as I'm concerned the Bible says Yahweh ordered "Go kill infants." I'm not going to get into "is that symbolic kill or physical kill"? All I know is 99% of Christians believe Yahweh is ordering the physical death of innocent babies on the pretext they're pagan and Yahweh hates pagans who worship other gods because it hurts his feelings. To me Yahweh is more barbaric than the people he's ordering destroyed. So to me and billions of other Christians that infanticide and that's what Barker is addressing. I mean it's there in black and white.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
What else are we going to argue about?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Who's arguing?What else are we going to argue about?
Do you want to argue?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Nope, I want to have a reasonable discussion about why the god of Christianity is such a prissy finicky little twerp. You can ask me why I think that and we can discuss. Reasonably of course.
nPeace
Veteran Member
No thanks. I heard it a million times.Nope, I want to have a reasonable discussion about why the god of Christianity is such a prissy finicky little twerp. You can ask me why I think that and we can discuss. Reasonably of course.
I have found it to be the case, in these... "reasonable" conversation, on RF, there is always a one-sided... "discussion", where what the godly person says is not even considered, and when the worldly one is asked questions, they are dismissed.
Besides that, our time can be better spent doing something else, than going through... again... one person speaking with human wisdom and the other speaking with godly wisdom.
It has been repeatedly explained why one who is worldly wise will always think they understand what they don't understand. ...and I believe you would say the godly one don't understand anything.
So what we would be doing is just basically saying what we believe - you believing that you have justifiable reason for complaint, and I believing that you don't know / understand that you don't know / understand what you think you know / understand.
Do you consider that a good exercise?
How does it work when both persons think that they are being reasonable, and the other isn't?
However, if you are good with that, and just want to air your grievances... Go ahead. Maybe someone will listen.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I think it is a far cry from 99% of Christians. You are referring to the literal-minded Christians but those Christians are increasingly in the minority.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It doesn't work very well, it just keeps going round and round.Do you consider that a good exercise?
How does it work when both persons think that they are being reasonable, and the other isn't?
However, if you are good with that, and just want to air your grievances... Go ahead. Maybe someone will listen.
I will listen to his grievances not only because I have some of the same grievances but because that is what Jesus would do.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Oh, okay.
Christians are awake. (Romans 13:11-14)
Perhaps you have the counterfeit in mind?
Sorry. I assumed you at least knew something about the Bible. Matthew 13
Also, I thought the analogy related to different religions, or groups..
nPeace
Veteran Member
Mark 8:10-13It doesn't work very well, it just keeps going round and round.
I will listen to his grievances not only because I have some of the same grievances but because that is what Jesus would do.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What is that supposed to mean?
If you are like any other Christian it will have whatever meaning you assign to it.....
And yet no Christian understands why that is problematic.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I don't know, Trailblazer but I'm willing to be educated. What do you think Christians think when they read:
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" 1 Samuel 15:3
I mean Yahweh is order mass slaughter of every living creature from old men to babies, from chickens to cows. How does one interpret it any other way? I believe if Christians knew such a disgusting verse was in the Bible I believe half the young people would drop out. The only reason they don't know is because they never read their Bible--which is a lucky break for Christianity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I think it will mean different things to different Christians, depending upon if they interpret it as actual words God spoke or rather as words men wrote about historical events that took place...
I certainly do not interpret it as ANYTHING that God said or did or ordered to be done.
God never said: Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Remember what I told you about the scholarly Baha'i position? When he says revelation he means words that God revealed/spoke.
Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]
A Baháí View of the Bible
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Okay, I get it now. You're confusing what I believe with what I acknowledge Christians are taught. I don't believe the real God ever said anything about anybody, much less gave the Israelites an order to commit genocide. But this is what Christians are taught by their pastors, at least in times past when there wasn't any political correctness going around. As I've said many times I believe the real God is a deist God. He doesn't communicate with humans, period. Yahweh is a pagan god invented by men, therefore when Jewish scholars tried to write their history they wrote whatever they wanted their pagan god Yahweh to say.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Done.
nPeace
Veteran Member
For me, the God of Abraham is described at Exodus 34:6, 7)
6 Jehovah was passing before him and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth, 7 showing loyal love to thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but he will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.”
I have come to appreciate that this is indeed true, and through the Bible, I know that people do not understand the way God acts, because they don't know him.
Some may think it is a case of Stockholm syndrome, but I think it's a case of fear, and denial, and in some cases misunderstanding, or just ignorance.
Many who were ignorant in the past, once they came to an accurate understanding, saw things different.
For example, we often object to discipline. Sometimes we object to parents administering discipline, and we do so, because we don't understand.
When we come to understand, it makes a whole lot of sense to us... but we did not understand before.
That's the way it works in the case of the God of Abraham. People just don't understand, but think they know all the facts in the matter, and are justified in complaining.
The scriptures say... "those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son." (Hebrews 12:6)
I find many good examples in the Bible bear that fact out.
In the case of Job, I realize that Job was not only tested, but disciplined.
(Job 7:11) Therefore, I will not restrain my mouth. I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in my bitter distress!
(Job 23:1-4) 1 Job said in reply: 2 “Even today I will complain stubbornly; My strength is exhausted because of my sighing. 3 If only I knew where to find God! I would go to his place of dwelling. 4 I would present my case before him And fill my mouth with arguments;
(Job 40:1-9) 1 Jehovah continued to answer Job: 2 “Should a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let the one who wants to reprove God answer.” 3 Job said in answer to Jehovah: 4 “Look! I am unworthy. What can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. 5 I spoke once, but I will not answer again; Twice, but I will say no more.” 6 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the windstorm: 7 “Brace yourself, please, like a man; I will question you, and you inform me. 8 Will you call into question my justice? Will you condemn me so that you may be right? 9 Do you have an arm as powerful as the true God’s, Or can your voice thunder like his?
...
[Jehovah then drew Job's attention to his powerful works. Job 40-41.
What was Job's response? He realized that he was in the wrong. He was humbled.]
(Job 42:1-3) 1 Then Job said in reply to Jehovah: 2 “Now I know that you are able to do all things And that nothing you have in mind to do is impossible for you. 3 You said, ‘Who is this who is obscuring my counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I spoke, but without understanding About things too wonderful for me, which I do not know.
(Job 23:1-4) 1 Job said in reply: 2 “Even today I will complain stubbornly; My strength is exhausted because of my sighing. 3 If only I knew where to find God! I would go to his place of dwelling. 4 I would present my case before him And fill my mouth with arguments;
(Job 40:1-9) 1 Jehovah continued to answer Job: 2 “Should a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let the one who wants to reprove God answer.” 3 Job said in answer to Jehovah: 4 “Look! I am unworthy. What can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. 5 I spoke once, but I will not answer again; Twice, but I will say no more.” 6 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the windstorm: 7 “Brace yourself, please, like a man; I will question you, and you inform me. 8 Will you call into question my justice? Will you condemn me so that you may be right? 9 Do you have an arm as powerful as the true God’s, Or can your voice thunder like his?
...
[Jehovah then drew Job's attention to his powerful works. Job 40-41.
What was Job's response? He realized that he was in the wrong. He was humbled.]
(Job 42:1-3) 1 Then Job said in reply to Jehovah: 2 “Now I know that you are able to do all things And that nothing you have in mind to do is impossible for you. 3 You said, ‘Who is this who is obscuring my counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I spoke, but without understanding About things too wonderful for me, which I do not know.
Are persons not repeating the same exact situation?
It looks that way to me. Do we need what Job had? I think we do.
The Bible points to that being the case, and I have come to be convinced by the evidence, that that is the case.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Cool. I'll get to it shortly.Done.
In the meantime, you might want to consider my most recent post above. Maybe you have some objection on the account of Job.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I don't know what evidence you're referring to, but here's my opinion on Job:
First God drives satan out of heaven in this big battle. The he's holding audiences with him in heaven????????
I thought yahweh can't stand to be in the presence of sin. And yet here we have the most sinful guy who ever lived standing right in front of him and Yahweh carries on a casual conversation with him without blinking or shielding himself ???? If Yahweh can make an exception for satan then surely he can make an exception for the billions of sinners down here. True?