• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Except the LORD Build the House

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Psalm 127:1. 'Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.'

According to your religion and beliefs, is the LORD building 'the house'?


 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Yes - Avatar Meher Baba's life was "building the house" - the New Humanity/New Age, that which humanity has been longing from since ages.https://meherspiritualuniversity.org/silence.pdf

The WORD that I will speak will go to the world as from God, not as from a philosopher; it will go straight to its heart. With the dawn of the realization of the Unity of all life, hatred and dissension will come to an end. There will be unfaltering love and unfailing understanding and men shall be united in an inviolable brotherhood, based on the realized Oneness of GOD.

But also Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Guru Nanek and many others were building 'the house' getting humanity ready for this time: The Hour of God.

That was because they all were perfect instantiations and manifestations of the LORD.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes - Avatar Meher Baba's life was "building the house" - the New Humanity/New Age, that which humanity has been longing from since ages.https://meherspiritualuniversity.org/silence.pdf

The WORD that I will speak will go to the world as from God, not as from a philosopher; it will go straight to its heart. With the dawn of the realization of the Unity of all life, hatred and dissension will come to an end. There will be unfaltering love and unfailing understanding and men shall be united in an inviolable brotherhood, based on the realized Oneness of GOD.

But also Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Guru Nanek and many others were building 'the house' getting humanity ready for this time: The Hour of God.

That was because they all were perfect instantiations and manifestations of the LORD.

Just out of interest, what makes you believe that these leading figures of religion were all 'perfect instantiations and manifestations' of the LORD?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Psalm 127:1. 'Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.'

According to your religion and beliefs, is the LORD building 'the house'?

In my Kingdom thinking... God has desired for man to work in conjunction with and through Him as the originator of all that is seen and unseen.

So, though we play a part of building, He is the architect.

As an example:

The TaNaKh would say it this way:

Deut 8:17 He did all this so you would never say to yourself, ‘I have achieved this wealth with my own strength and energy.’ 18 Remember the Lord your God. He is the one who gives you power to be successful, in order to fulfill the covenant he confirmed to your ancestors with an oath.

Our New Testament would say it this way:

John 15: 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

So whether building a house (family) or building a country... to do it without God will always produce limitations or eventual collapse.

It isn't that you can't build a home or a country but rather to have it remain successful... one needs God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In my Kingdom thinking... God has desired for man to work in conjunction with and through Him as the originator of all that is seen and unseen.

So, though we play a part of building, He is the architect.

As an example:

The TaNaKh would say it this way:

Deut 8:17 He did all this so you would never say to yourself, ‘I have achieved this wealth with my own strength and energy.’ 18 Remember the Lord your God. He is the one who gives you power to be successful, in order to fulfill the covenant he confirmed to your ancestors with an oath.

Our New Testament would say it this way:

John 15: 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

So whether building a house (family) or building a country... to do it without God will always produce limitations or eventual collapse.

It isn't that you can't build a home or a country but rather to have it remain successful... one needs God.
My wife & I have long had the belief that even if it were possible to prove that God (or Gods) doesn't/don't exist, nevertheless the morals that religions teach are highly valuable to the wellbeing of both many individuals and societies. There are some anthropologists who believe religion is sorta linked into us because of these generally desirable traits [there's some generally undesirable traits as well as we've seen].

Therefore, efforts by some historically to eradicate religion have never worked.

Have a great weekend, my friend.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
My wife & I have long had the belief that even if it were possible to prove that God (or Gods) doesn't/don't exist, nevertheless the morals that religions teach are highly valuable to the wellbeing of both many individuals and societies. There are some anthropologists who believe religion is sorta linked into us because of these generally desirable traits [there's some generally undesirable traits as well as we've seen].

Therefore, efforts by some historically to eradicate religion have never worked.

Have a great weekend, my friend.

Great point, Metis...and thanks for your prayers.

I wonder, many times (maybe i'm boy-wonder?) if the reality of God is ingrained in every human. Because of humankind, it can get convoluted but none the less the reason why morals are natural is because God has hard-wired us, from the beginning, to be moral.

Do hope you also have a great weekend.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Great point, Metis...and thanks for your prayers.

I wonder, many times (maybe i'm boy-wonder?) if the reality of God is ingrained in every human. Because of humankind, it can get convoluted but none the less the reason why morals are natural is because God has hard-wired us, from the beginning, to be moral.

Do hope you also have a great weekend.

It could easily annoy some, but I'd go further and say that our innermost nature is Divine.

And that manifests no matter what we think as the common upholding of the same fundamental principles such as kindness no matter if people are believers or secular humanists.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It could easily annoy some, but I'd go further and say that our innermost nature is Divine.

And that manifests no matter what we think as the common upholding of the same fundamental principles such as kindness no matter if people are believers or secular humanists.

I think that was the point in Genesis when it was written "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness"... "male and female He made them".

The Gospel of the Kingdom is just that, to bring mankind back to the original intent of being made in "our image and in our likeness".

Not God Himself, but one that mirrors attributes of who He is.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Faith.

The promptings of my heart.

Every thing I know about them.

I have no doubt that there are helpful teachings to be found amongst all the spiritual leaders you mention, but can any of them claim to offer you knowledge of God, or salvation from sin?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
knowledge of God

Yes. In Christianity, St. Francis of Assisi offered a pure path to God. In Judaism, Kabbalah figures like the Baal Shem Tov offer a path to knowing divinity. In Hinduism, we have many who reached the highest level of attainment and shared their wisdom with all. In Sufi Islam we have Rumi and Hafiz. And so forth.

And the essence of all their wisdom is the same though the "book" is different. In Christianity it's expressed clearly as the two "greatest commandments" upon which everything rests as the Bible says.

The law of love expressed by Rebbe Nachman of Beslov thus "Let the good in me connect with the good in others, until all the world is transformed through the compelling power of love.” The Talmud expresses this as "The highest form of wisdom is kindness".

Buddhists express this as living a life of compassion.

:"Salvation from sin" is a Christian conception. From a Christian framework, I like C. S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" because it expresses a deep truth.

“Nothing, not even the best and noblest, can go on as it is. Nothing, not even what is lowest and most bestial, will not be raised if it submits to death.”

(and)

“No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”

That to me means real action in the world, walking the talk and not just believing that one has the equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card because of a superficial belief.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes. In Christianity, St. Francis of Assisi offered a pure path to God. In Judaism, Kabbalah figures like the Baal Shem Tov offer a path to knowing divinity. In Hinduism, we have many who reached the highest level of attainment and shared their wisdom with all. In Sufi Islam we have Rumi and Hafiz. And so forth.

And the essence of all their wisdom is the same though the "book" is different. In Christianity it's expressed clearly as the two "greatest commandments" upon which everything rests as the Bible says.

The law of love expressed by Rebbe Nachman of Beslov thus "Let the good in me connect with the good in others, until all the world is transformed through the compelling power of love.” The Talmud expresses this as "The highest form of wisdom is kindness".

Buddhists express this as living a life of compassion.

:"Salvation from sin" is a Christian conception. From a Christian framework, I like C. S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" because it expresses a deep truth.

“Nothing, not even the best and noblest, can go on as it is. Nothing, not even what is lowest and most bestial, will not be raised if it submits to death.”

(and)

“No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”

That to me means real action in the world, walking the talk and not just believing that one has the equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card because of a superficial belief.
To me, the key phrase in C.S.Lewis' quotation is 'if it submits to death'. There has, IMO, to be repentance, a death to self, before there can be a new life, or resurrection. Is Jesus Christ not the firstfruits of the harvest?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Psalm 127:1. 'Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.'

According to your religion and beliefs, is the LORD building 'the house'?

I think that means, if people do it without God, it is in vain, it doesn’t last and it doesn’t survive.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
In my Kingdom thinking... God has desired for man to work in conjunction with and through Him as the originator of all that is seen and unseen.

So, though we play a part of building, He is the architect.

As an example:

The TaNaKh would say it this way:

Deut 8:17 He did all this so you would never say to yourself, ‘I have achieved this wealth with my own strength and energy.’ 18 Remember the Lord your God. He is the one who gives you power to be successful, in order to fulfill the covenant he confirmed to your ancestors with an oath.

Our New Testament would say it this way:

John 15: 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

So whether building a house (family) or building a country... to do it without God will always produce limitations or eventual collapse.

It isn't that you can't build a home or a country but rather to have it remain successful... one needs God.

Hi Ken,
I've been thinking about what you wrote. Is not the difference between the passage in Deuteronomy and the passage in John also the difference between law and grace? We cannot 'remain' in Christ [as John says] until we first enter the body of Christ, and we cannot enter the body of Christ until we are 'born again'. To be born again, we must receive the Holy Spirit, which is freely available to all in the new covenant of Christ. Under the old covenant, the law, the only people upon whom the Holy Spirit rested were the prophets and faithful. The congregation of Israel did not walk in the spirit of prophecy (by faith), or with 'face to face' knowledge of God. They relied on their leaders.

It would, I believe, be wrong to think that a person can fulfil the law of God without the Holy Spirit leading him. As the Psalmist says, 'they labour in vain that build it' (by their own works).
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hi Ken,
I've been thinking about what you wrote. Is not the difference between the passage in Deuteronomy and the passage in John also the difference between law and grace? We cannot 'remain' in Christ [as John says] until we first enter the body of Christ, and we cannot enter the body of Christ until we are 'born again'. To be born again, we must receive the Holy Spirit, which is freely available to all in the new covenant of Christ. Under the old covenant, the law, the only people upon whom the Holy Spirit rested were the prophets and faithful. The congregation of Israel did not walk in the spirit of prophecy (by faith), or with 'face to face' knowledge of God. They relied on their leaders.

It would, I believe, be wrong to think that a person can fulfil the law of God without the Holy Spirit leading him. As the Psalmist says, 'they labour in vain that build it' (by their own works).

Yes... there is a difference between blessings through the works of the law vs blessings through grace and faith. Certainly, in our understanding, we must first become part of the body of Christ through the born-again experience.

I wouldn't say that the congregation of Israel never walked in the spirit of faith but rather sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. When Joshua entered into the promised land, it was indeed by faith. As a matter of fact, Hebrews 11 has a list of many who walked by faith (the Faith Hall of Fame chapter).

Building the house with God is in the TaNaKh which we call the Old Testament. Faith and grace is also in the TaNaKh (The Apostles actually preached it from those same scriptures). But, as you said, we no longer access it all by works but by obedience in faith.

So, in my view, whether in the TaNaKh or the New Testament, you still need God to build your house. The born-again experience certainly makes it a lot easier because the Holy Spirit now lives in us and guides us to blessings.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To me, the key phrase in C.S.Lewis' quotation is 'if it submits to death'. There has, IMO, to be repentance, a death to self, before there can be a new life, or resurrection. Is Jesus Christ not the firstfruits of the harvest?

The 'death of self' is called overcoming the nafs in Islamic Sufism and by other names in Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism.

My belief is that the Christ, Avatar in India has come again and again both known historically and unknown. Jesus to me is one time he came.

Those that seek to overcome their lower self through love of Jesus are not wrong in doing so. And that's equally true for those who seek to do the same through other religions.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes... there is a difference between blessings through the works of the law vs blessings through grace and faith. Certainly, in our understanding, we must first become part of the body of Christ through the born-again experience.

I wouldn't say that the congregation of Israel never walked in the spirit of faith but rather sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. When Joshua entered into the promised land, it was indeed by faith. As a matter of fact, Hebrews 11 has a list of many who walked by faith (the Faith Hall of Fame chapter).

Building the house with God is in the TaNaKh which we call the Old Testament. Faith and grace is also in the TaNaKh (The Apostles actually preached it from those same scriptures). But, as you said, we no longer access it all by works but by obedience in faith.

So, in my view, whether in the TaNaKh or the New Testament, you still need God to build your house. The born-again experience certainly makes it a lot easier because the Holy Spirit now lives in us and guides us to blessings.
A few more thoughts!

Does being born again make it easier, or is it a necessary requirement for entry into the kingdom of God? I'm inclined to think the latter is the truth. (John 3:5)

As l understand the Hebrew scriptures, Abraham was a man of faith, and we are to follow in faith according to his covenant with God. The covenant made with Moses, a covenant of law, was not based on faith but on (re)action, and was necessary because of disobedience. Under Moses, the prophet delivered God's laws, and the people were required to follow the law to the letter...all the laws. The law didn't require a man to show faith, but to obey. If you obeyed, you received the blessings promised by God, and if you disobeyed you suffered the curses of disobedience.

Therefore, the only way for Israel to be saved (living in safety and peace in their land) was for the whole congregation to please God by corporately fulfilling the law in outward action.

I know that Hebrews 11 points us to the great men of faith, such as Moses and Joshua, but these men of faith proved to be the exception in lsrael, not the norm. Were they not the ones who heard the voice of God and told the masses how to act? The typical Israelite did not hear God's voice, but he did know the difference between a blessing and a curse. So, his behaviour was manipulated by pain and pleasure, the 'carrot and stick'. Acting out of obligation is what this kind of religion entails.

The Holy Spirit allows us, l believe, to know the Lord in the Spirit of love, creating a relationship that is better than the one that is founded solely on law and justice. The fear of the Lord is, l believe, just the 'beginning of wisdom'.
 
Top