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Genesis Creation

rrobs

Well-Known Member
"Know the story"? Seriously? Genesis is not War and Peace or The Gulag Archipelago. I understood Genesis quite well when it was taught to my ten-year-old self in Sunday school. It was as easily understandable as any of my comic books.
OK, then you shouldn't have any trouble citing a verse or two that succinctly tells us the main subject of the Bible. I'll even give you a hint; one of the verses is in Genesis. Given your ten year old was taught Genesis in Sunday school, it should be a breeze for you.

Short of that, you might want to consider you are hardly in a position to comment on the scriptures.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that the poll I referenced is incorrect?
Are you suggesting that God tells you how many people believe Adam & Eve were real people?



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I think I was plain in my assertion. You can mangle what I said any way you want, but my actual post was very clear.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
try looking up the definitions

then answer the question

Spirit first?
or substance


So you are still unable to provide your definition, you expect me to think for you. I have looked up the definitions, which is why i know there are several but i can assure you,substance, as in grapes, grain,rice etc came before the spirit made from them
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So you are still unable to provide your definition, you expect me to think for you. I have looked up the definitions, which is why i know there are several but i can assure you,substance, as in grapes, grain,rice etc came before the spirit made from them
think for yourself
use your own definition

the dead cannot beget the living

go back to the beginning
note the topic of this thread.......genesis

then choose
substance......or Spirit
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
think for yourself
use your own definition

the dead cannot beget the living

go back to the beginning
note the topic of this thread.......genesis

then choose
substance......or Spirit

you appear to be going off on one

You asked the question so it is down to you to say what you mean. I have provided my answers, more than one.

The topic of the thread does not change reality
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
you appear to be going off on one

You asked the question so it is down to you to say what you mean. I have provided my answers, more than one.

The topic of the thread does not change reality
reality......one or the other

substance first......or Spirit

take an intelligent guess
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I will assume one of two things.....

you don't know

or....you don't care


I have no need to assume you don't know what you are talking about, having been asked several times to define your requirements and having several times refused to provide any form of guidance as to what you are talking about. and attempted to put the onus on to me to create a definition for you. I think you have failed in your task to validate guesswork.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I have no need to assume you don't know what you are talking about, having been asked several times to define your requirements and having several times refused to provide any form of guidance as to what you are talking about. and attempted to put the onus on to me to create a definition for you. I think you have failed in your task to validate guesswork.
you are knee jerking.....to avoid the question

Genesis......the beginning

Substance begat God
or God begat substance

choose
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
that part of you trying to avoid a direct choice......o_O


A choice of your guess is in no way direct. If you want a lesson in the beginning of the universe (the real one, not the made up bull of bronze age goatherds) then just ask.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
you up
go for it

and don't leave out Spirit

Spirit has to be left out of reality, one cannot give an honest account of things that are known by including woo


Edit

However, i will do what i can to pander to your whims...

Before the big bang nothing is known, then just under 14 billion years ago something happened, again unknown but there are several hypotheses extrapolated from current observations and/or mathematics.

Following 10e-43 if a second (thats much much less time than the space between the fastest clock ticks of the fastest computer) things began to become clear to those studying cosmology. There is much detail on the cosmology/science websites, even Wikipedia that you can check for yourself so i won't go into it.

Just over 9 billion years later a cloud of gas and dust from a star that had gone nova began to be dragged together by gravity, coalescing into our own sun and and solar system.

About a billion years later entropy, conditions and atoms/molecules formed the first life on our planet. That life evolved, more than 99% of all species that evolved are now extinct. Of the reminder and just a blink of the eye ago in universal terms (about 7 million years) an ape evolved to homo and the first human like mammals appeared.

You said include spirit, ok, in all of those hypothesis, and the scientific theories for which evidence exists, not one say god or spirit was/is involved. This of course does not preclude the intervention of god magic, it has just never been observed.

And that is a quick account of how the real genesis happened
 
Last edited:

joelr

Well-Known Member
I'll bet you couldn't give me at least one verse that says precisely what the subject of the scriptures is. I'd guess the same about most of the scholars you mention. Short of that, neither they nor you are hardly an authority on the matter.

Then your guess is wrong. Why would you even think that when literary analysis is done they don't know the subject of a verse? Where does that idea even come from?
Not only is the meaning of a passage discussed there are multiple layers looked at when doing analysis of writing styles:

"If one looks at all of these elements together, we can see just how brilliant Mark’s story is, having multiple allegorical layers weaved into one."

Obvious meanings are looked at as well as metaphorical and allegorical meanings and instances of using, transforming, reversing other stories like Mark using Psalms.

"Additionally, in this story, Mark seems to be pointing out how the Jews are erroneously viewing Jesus as the scapegoat, where Jesus is scorned, beaten, spat upon, crowned and pierced, and dressed in scarlet, and though Barabbas is the actual scapegoat, the Jews mistakenly embrace him instead. So Mark seems to be portraying the Jews as acting completely blind to the situation and choosing their sins (i.e. Barabbas) rather than their salvation (i.e. Jesus). Finally, this story seems to suggest that the Jews have also chosen the wrong model for the expected messiah. Whereas Barabbas could be seen as the murderous revolutionary, in line with the common Jewish belief that the messiah was expected to be a kind of revolutionary military leader, Jesus on the other hand, exemplified the suffering servant model of the messiah (another Jewish messianic model, though arguably less popular than the former), and one that would circumvent any need for a military revolution by enacting a spiritual victory through his death instead. So the Jews appear to have chosen the type of messiah they want, rather than the type of messiah that God wants instead (or so Mark believes anyway). Furthermore, rather than using a random lottery (i.e. God) to choose which “goat” would serve as the scapegoat, and which would serve as the atonement, the Jews removed God from the equation and made the choice themselves. If one looks at all of these elements together, we can see just how brilliant Mark’s story is, having multiple allegorical layers weaved into one."


The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark

So no, every scholar is looking for all meanings as well as stories that authors copied from and how and why. If you read the link you would probably realize this instead of making odd assumptions? Just because theologians assume this is a message from a God and ONLY interpret it from this angle that is far from making someone an "expert".
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Spirit has to be left out of reality, one cannot give an honest account of things that are known by including woo


Edit

However, i will do what i can to pander to your whims...

Before the big bang nothing is known, then just under 14 billion years ago something happened, again unknown but there are several hypotheses extrapolated from current observations and/or mathematics.

Following 10e-43 if a second (thats much much less time than the space between the fastest clock ticks of the fastest computer) things began to become clear to those studying cosmology. There is much detail on the cosmology/science websites, even Wikipedia that you can check for yourself so i won't go into it.

Just over 9 billion years later a cloud of gas and dust from a star that had gone nova began to be dragged together by gravity, coalescing into our own sun and and solar system.

About a billion years later entropy, conditions and atoms/molecules formed the first life on our planet. That life evolved, more than 99% of all species that evolved are now extinct. Of the reminder and just a blink of the eye ago in universal terms (about 7 million years) an ape evolved to homo and the first human like mammals appeared.

You said include spirit, ok, in all of those hypothesis, and the scientific theories for which evidence exists, not one say god or spirit was/is involved. This of course does not preclude the intervention of god magic, it has just never been observed.

And that is a quick account of how the real genesis happened
so....substance begat life

and so.....only substance can have life......

well......gee
dead things don't begat the living
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
dead things don't begat the living


In your opinion

Abiogenesis is the best model available for how life on this planet began.

People can of course think, "nonsense, I don't understand it so it must be god wot dun it" with even less evidence than that of abiogenesis simply because they are programmed to think god to fill in the gaps they don't want.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
In your opinion

Abiogenesis is the best model available for how life on this planet began.

People can of course think, "nonsense, I don't understand it so it must be god wot dun it" with even less evidence than that of abiogenesis simply because they are programmed to think god to fill in the gaps they don't want.
if substance can ......bestow......life

perhaps you can fill in the gaps
 
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