firedragon
Veteran Member
Interesting information. Thanks.
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Are Humans Their Own Worst Enemy?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
Interesting information. Thanks.
"Humanity today is like a waking dreamer, caught between the fantasies of sleep and the chaos of the real world. The mind seeks but cannot find the precise place and hour. We have created a Star Wars civilization, with Stone Age emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. We thrash about. We are terribly confused by the mere fact of our existence, and a danger to ourselves and to the rest of life."
The Social Conquest of the Earth, Edward O. Wilson, 2012
The Social Conquest of the Earth, Edward O. Wilson, 2012
It was not a straw man. You actually posted "Embracing science, humans have mass murdered and become the Bain of humans themselves". That is what I responded too. I did not miss that. But thank you for the follow up clarifying your position.
I knew the context of the thread, the previous posts and what your post said. My response was in the proper context to what was written. But I appreciate your feedback none-the-less.
Scientists weren't the people that started pulling oil out of the ground, but I get your point. Just like anything can be a toxin, anything can become a pollutant in the effective quantity, volume or rate.Sorry for the confusion, I was using the term generically, or metaphorically.....”used as directed” alludes to things that can harm when not “used as directed”.....think of medicines for example.....some are quite beneficial “when used as directed” by a practitioner but like all medicines, can be harmful when you exceed the dosage or use it for something it was not designed to treat.
Petroleum based products are from fossil fuels which I believe scientists should have left in the ground because I don't believe anything that creates toxins was ever meant to be burned. Look at the pollution they cause! Does that offset the benefit of being able to jump in our cars and go wherever we like? Or to have coal powered electricity and industry pumping out tons of Co2 into the atmosphere when we are losing the lungs of the world for timber and palm oil plantations?
This is NOT OK.
Humans tend to think in terms of the little that they personally contribute to the pollution problem....like that one plastic container that they might throw in the garbage, but they forget about the million other people who think the same way.....collectively we are killing the planet and robbing its inhabitants of a quality of life that would still be there if we cared more about those around us, including all the myriad lifeforms that are now facing extinction because of our greed for profit.
Habitats are being destroyed with no regard for the creatures that God designed to live in them. Humans are 'reaping what they sowed', but so are all the other creatures who are at the mercy of our greed.
What I mean is that there is no balance....whatever good science does, there is always something bad to cancel it out. Without ethics there would be so many crossing the line as I am sure that in some nations they are already doing behind the scenes.
For example, why would the Chinese be doing research on bat to human transfer of viruses in the Wuhan Virology Lab, even publishing papers on the subject, and then all of a sudden we have a bat to human virus taking over the world, killing millions, and mutating into more lethal strains!?
I believe that humans will account for their actions.....
You have a good point. As individuals, we do not often recognize the value of our contribution to a problem.
Labs all over the world are researching zoonotic diseases. Regarding the labs in Wuhan, those may be disparate facts with no other connection than geography and timing. Or maybe not. We really don't know. Having questions does not elevate speculation to fact.
I agree. We will be accountable for our actions.
I agree and appreciate your interest in finding sustainable solutions. All of us that want a healthy, sustainable world with consideration of the duration and depth of our own actions are helping balance the account and put it in the black in my opinion.
I think that those things identified as “poisonous” would be recognized as unsuitable for use if it was to cause death or illness...that would be a 'common sense' thing, wouldn't it?....but having said that, they are finding that many things that are “poisonous” can be made into medicines that can treat previously untreatable conditions. Anti-venom for one....as well as poisonous plants that have components where these can be used in controlled doses to treat various illnesses.
And you have a propensity to take everything way too literally when it comes to looking at negatives. Nothing that humans do is without downsides in this world....but I would swap one for the other tomorrow if it meant getting rid of this bane of our existence.
The downside would be negligible by comparison.
I think that goes without saying.....don’t you?
LOL....At least we have grass fed cattle and sheep in Australia. Seeing the kinds of conditions that are present in mass consumption nations like the USA, raised in feedlots, who never see grass.....dung beetles are most welcome.
Which would think would produce the best beef for human consumption?
Or the best eggs at the supermarket?
Greedy human consumers are the downside to all commercial meat production....the public are oblivious as to where their regular food comes from......
I look forward to the day when all this slaughter will end. We were created to be vegetarians and so were all the animals.....the Bible indicates that we will return to that original situation because it was God's first purpose and he always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)
Genesis 1:29-30...
"Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so."
Humans and animals originally had the same kinds of food....vegetation...provided in endless variety, readily sourced and sustained......and in abundant quantity. The only meat eaters were the carrion creatures who were nature's clean up crew. They only consumed dead animals.
The point isn't about the quality of beef. It is about the fact that an animal producing a natural product lead to a problem that science had to solve. So everything natural is not immediately good and all science is not immediately evil.I think that those things identified as “poisonous” would be recognized as unsuitable for use if it was to cause death or illness...that would be a 'common sense' thing, wouldn't it?....but having said that, they are finding that many things that are “poisonous” can be made into medicines that can treat previously untreatable conditions. Anti-venom for one....as well as poisonous plants that have components where these can be used in controlled doses to treat various illnesses.
And you have a propensity to take everything way too literally when it comes to looking at negatives. Nothing that humans do is without downsides in this world....but I would swap one for the other tomorrow if it meant getting rid of this bane of our existence.
The downside would be negligible by comparison.
I think that goes without saying.....don’t you?
LOL....At least we have grass fed cattle and sheep in Australia. Seeing the kinds of conditions that are present in mass consumption nations like the USA, raised in feedlots, who never see grass.....dung beetles are most welcome.
Which would think would produce the best beef for human consumption?
Or the best eggs at the supermarket?
Greedy human consumers are the downside to all commercial meat production....the public are oblivious as to where their regular food comes from......
I look forward to the day when all this slaughter will end. We were created to be vegetarians and so were all the animals.....the Bible indicates that we will return to that original situation because it was God's first purpose and he always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)
Genesis 1:29-30...
"Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so."
Humans and animals originally had the same kinds of food....vegetation...provided in endless variety, readily sourced and sustained......and in abundant quantity. The only meat eaters were the carrion creatures who were nature's clean up crew. They only consumed dead animals.
You are free to believe whatever you want about animal nutritional history. I cannot imagine a lion eating oranges or potatoes, but if that is what you want to believe, OK.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Exactly. The strawman is when someone says "because of science" which I never said. So please check the context of the response, which I have said several times but maybe you intend to somehow make a member look like some kind of backward person who believes science is a bad thing or something.
So obviously I will not respond to the same rhetoric again.
Have a great day.
And this is a position from which you always seem to defend so vehemently, like someone insulted your mother....
.....I have never said that all science is evil.....when its good its very good.....but when its bad...it is so much worse than that.Well I take God at his word and he says that originally all animals ate vegetation.....some of the largest and strongest animals on earth are still vegetarians......elephants....gorillas....giraffes....rhinos.....why is that so hard to believe?
I don't understand why you would question the defense of a reasonable, sensible position. I am not even going to take the bait for the rest of this. I am not looking for a fight.And this is a position from which you always seem to defend so vehemently, like someone insulted your mother....
That is your interpretation. Nothing specifically says that all animals ate vegetation only. Wouldn't the features of God's creations also be His word. The features of a lion, a tiger, a bear all say eats meat.
Looking back through their history both secular and religious, it is very apparent that humans are poor examples of how to lead the world and each other in the right direction.
Looking at today’s world and seeing the advances in technology and science and the decline in religious practice, what conclusions can we come to? Is science the more intelligent way to go?
For every advancement that science makes, the planet is paying for it in some way. We, as supposedly the most intelligent inhabitants of this planet seem to throw caution to the wind when implementing things that will save us time and money. All focus seems to be on the here and now, but little attention is paid to what consequences may come from such a short sighted view.
What are some of the upsides and opposing downsides that you can think of where humans could demonstrate more responsibility for the environment?
I’ll start off with the one thing that humans invented that is now choking the world.....plastic pollution.
Plastics became popular in the 1960’s and were originally a boon to every household and an accumulation of plastic containers and gadgets flooded the market with “must have” implements and storage containers with lids. But here we are 6 decades later and we are drowning in the stuff because we failed to see how long this product would take to break down like natural products do.
What would you offer as a solution? Should we get rid of plastic and substitute a more environmentally friendly product like hemp? If so what do we do with all the existing plastic that is clogging our landfill, oceans and rivers?
Should we make the manufacturers more accountable?
Thoughts....?
It's a complex area, but in simple terms I think your last point is interesting. Yes, we need to make the manufacturers more accountable. Unfortunately the recycling 'movement' is a somewhat manufactured solution to this problem (pun unintended) which doesn't really solve anything, but at best makes the immense damage being caused just slightly less immense.
The simple truth is that much of the information we receive on recycling, and positioning of plastic recycling as being a credible solution to plastic waste is being pushed by...wait for it...the plastic industry.
Our use of plastics is dramatically increasing over time. And given the ridiculous impact this is having on the oceans alone, that is cause for alarm.
Looking at today’s world and seeing the advances in technology and science and the decline in religious practice, what conclusions can we come to? Is science the more intelligent way to go?
I'm not sure why you're linking the two, apart from narrative convenience.
Sweden and Norway both have more progressive environmental policies and views than the US or Saudi Arabia, but far lower levels of religiousness. Note, I'm not trying to tie a LACK of religion with progressive environmental policies here...I am merely confused why you're drawing the opposite conclusion.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Words and rhetoric.
The word of God says humans.
Tell me how wrong I am so I can justify my self destructive chosen behaviours. By word use.
Then says because words of God chose it for you.
As a human who can meditate. Seek solace in nature. See the beauty of the earth. I can ignore human irrational behaviour. Their chosen self destructive motivated self manipulations so they can blame something other than theirselves.
Always seeking another human to lay blame on who is the worst evil human chooser in life.
I know sex allowed my life and my personal thought presence.
One day I leave life by death.
If I am not here anymore so then any knowledge of what exists afterwards owns no revelance in my presence now.
What I know as human consciousness.
Hence I saw why so many peaceful spiritual humans could care less at your behaviours.
Only the greedy want to continue to rule and abuse on a planet that rationally is not owned by humans.
The word of God says humans.
Tell me how wrong I am so I can justify my self destructive chosen behaviours. By word use.
Then says because words of God chose it for you.
As a human who can meditate. Seek solace in nature. See the beauty of the earth. I can ignore human irrational behaviour. Their chosen self destructive motivated self manipulations so they can blame something other than theirselves.
Always seeking another human to lay blame on who is the worst evil human chooser in life.
I know sex allowed my life and my personal thought presence.
One day I leave life by death.
If I am not here anymore so then any knowledge of what exists afterwards owns no revelance in my presence now.
What I know as human consciousness.
Hence I saw why so many peaceful spiritual humans could care less at your behaviours.
Only the greedy want to continue to rule and abuse on a planet that rationally is not owned by humans.
It has been my experience that many people believe that religious people are basically science deniers and therefore are an impediment to science based progress. But we can only hope that as religion declines, scientists will keep to the ethical standards set for them, and not let a lack of belief in an Intelligent Creator take them over the boundaries of where their science can take them....to scary places.....
Taken to extremes, they can be. But I wouldn't see extremes as being representative of the whole. Still, I accept that you might hear that view.
But we can only hope that as religion declines, scientists will keep to the ethical standards set for them, and not let a lack of belief in an Intelligent Creator take them over the boundaries of where their science can take them....to scary places.....
I think morals and ethics...regardless of religious belief and presence of religion or otherwise...is an increasingly complex area that requires more attention and investment than we commonly attribute to it.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Is this a secular question or a religious one?Looking back through their history both secular and religious, it is very apparent that humans are poor examples of how to lead the world and each other in the right direction.
Looking at today’s world and seeing the advances in technology and science and the decline in religious practice, what conclusions can we come to? Is science the more intelligent way to go?
For every advancement that science makes, the planet is paying for it in some way. We, as supposedly the most intelligent inhabitants of this planet seem to throw caution to the wind when implementing things that will save us time and money. All focus seems to be on the here and now, but little attention is paid to what consequences may come from such a short sighted view.
What are some of the upsides and opposing downsides that you can think of where humans could demonstrate more responsibility for the environment?
I’ll start off with the one thing that humans invented that is now choking the world.....plastic pollution.
Plastics became popular in the 1960’s and were originally a boon to every household and an accumulation of plastic containers and gadgets flooded the market with “must have” implements and storage containers with lids. But here we are 6 decades later and we are drowning in the stuff because we failed to see how long this product would take to break down like natural products do.
What would you offer as a solution? Should we get rid of plastic and substitute a more environmentally friendly product like hemp? If so what do we do with all the existing plastic that is clogging our landfill, oceans and rivers?
Should we make the manufacturers more accountable?
Thoughts....?
Read post #113 as I believe that this has already been addressed....