Isolde Schulz
Member
I think you've hit upon the crucial crux of the matter. I'm sure that a pole would be just as excruciating as a cross.
The entire aspect of inflicting pain with crosses and impalements is uncouth to me.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
I think you've hit upon the crucial crux of the matter. I'm sure that a pole would be just as excruciating as a cross.
First, it is not accurate to say, "Most JWs aren't even said to be in the New Covenant or have the Holy Spirit etc."
That's somewhat false, depending on how you are looking at it.
All of JWs benefit from the New Covenant - even though the parties in it do not include everyone, and JWs believe they have holy spirit.
How else could they carry out their assignment? How else could they have their sins forgiven and have the hope of everlasting life.
The new covenant makes that possible, and holy spirit is necessary.
Secondly. None of JWs believe that salvation is gained through works. None.
Salvation is a gift of God, to all obeying him as ruler, and accepting the ransom sacrifice of his son - demonstrating that they do.
Faith without works is dead.
Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.. . . (James 2:18)
Can you do that?
If it does, would you mind explaining to all us, here on RF, why you think works are not important (correct me if that is not accurately expressed), and why you condemn the JWs for doing only what the Bible says?
Maybe you disagree with James, and hence why you disagree with JWs?
Also, please consider... what does the scripture in james say about your friendship with God?
I guess you didn't want to be corrected then?It is only the 144000 in WT theology who are part of the New Covenant.
It is strange that you say that all JWs believe they have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what God gives as part of the New Covenant.
Heb 8:10 Cross References (34 Verses)
If we read Romans 8 we see that to please God we should be lead by the Spirit.
Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
When we read further on we see this:
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
So are you led by the Spirit and please God and are children of God or what?
Again, clearly a demonstration of not wanting to be corrected.I hope I can demonstrate my faith by my works.
It is a hard line to draw at times, the line between working for salvation and working because of faith and salvation, letting faith work through love. I certainly do not want to judge anyone and say they are working for salvation BUT I think that the WT theology is heavy on the side of working for salvation even if individual members are not.
I fail to see your argument.I did not say that works are not important. I agree with you and James and no doubt Paul. Faith without works is dead. Also faith works through love.
A belief alone that has no active component in works is not the faith that Jesus wants in us. Repentance is important in the gospel message and expressing the love that God gives us to express through His Spirit in us is important.
Whether those works include obedience to the WT is another thing.
Whether those works include obedience to the WT is another thing.
The Watchtower wouldn’t put so much continual effort into denying that Jesus died on a cross if they did not despise the gospel message it represents; that by Christ alone and His finished work one’s sins are forgiven and the gift of eternal life may be received through faith.Where do find written that Jehovah's Witnesses despise the cross _________
It has nothing to do with despise or not, but rather the cross has pre-Christian connection to a pagan phallic symbol.
That is the truth. Even monotheism is present in paganism.I can’t think of anything in this fallen world that hasn’t been tainted by paganism or have some connection to pagan symbolism. The reality is that God is sovereign and He uses things in the world and He accomplishes His will through human activities in spite of human sinfulness.
The Watchtower wouldn’t put so much continual effort into denying that Jesus died on a cross if they did not despise the gospel message it represents; that by Christ alone and His finished work one’s sins are forgiven and the gift of eternal life may be received through faith.
I can’t think of anything in this fallen world that hasn’t been tainted by paganism or have some connection to pagan symbolism. The reality is that God is sovereign and He uses things in the world and He accomplishes His will through human activities in spite of human sinfulness.
For example here: "To adopt such a distasteful symbol..." written by @Deeje in Post #127Where do find written that Jehovah's Witnesses despise the cross
The Watchtower is a Bible Society...it is a printery which distributes Bible based literature and information.
Since it was Jesus himself who appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45)...I'm supposing that those who choose their own food and feed themselves are somewhat delusional. If you are not part of a global brotherhood who all believe one truth and who follow the teachings of Jesus to the letter, despite persecution and opposition.....you are lost. Jesus can find you but you have to want to be found......willing to put away your own ideas and become part of God's universal family.
It is Jesus and Christian scripture who tells us what to believe and what actions to perform.
Please tell me what we do that is unscriptural.....
I guess you didn't want to be corrected then?
All of JWs have holy spirit. There is a difference between having holy spirit, and being annointed by holy spirit, or born again. I wouldn't expect you would know that.
Again, clearly a demonstration of not wanting to be corrected.
I should have known, based on your MO.
What you think is irrelevant to what is.
I fail to see your argument.
You say, "The death of Jesus for them provides the opportunity to gain eternal life through works."
You were told No, and why your claim is false, and you turn again to your misguiding assertions. Mimicking the Pharisees who when they failed against Jesus, resorted to slander against him.
What does that say about the identity of your father? Your MO is showing.
Repeating again... This thread is not about JWs. This is... if you are interested in discussing JWs and their teachings on the Bible.I think I am looking to the Bible when I look at Romans 8 and 1John 5:1
1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him.
You have let a group of men talk you out of believing that all Christians are born again and in the New Covenant. You have let them tell you that most of the New Testament does not apply to you. There is no scriptural basis for this, just what a small group of men, who keep changing their mind, tell you to believe.
If you think that you need to be part of the only source of truth, a JW, and that you need to take in accurate knowledge of the truth from that source and need to be part of the preaching work in one way or another, of the organisation and to refrain from not only doing what is said to be wrong in the Bible but the list of things that the GB has added to those things by it's own authority then it is possible that you, like the Galatians have fallen away from the Gospel of Grace which the apostles preached and into a Gospel of works.
No organisation is going to admit to having a gospel of works. That is an outright contradiction of what Paul said. Still it is possible to believe a gospel of works without realising it. It is a subtle thing and Satan is definitely subtle in his approach to things.
I seem to remember being told by a JW that the death of Jesus provides the opportunity to gain eternal life.
Is that gained through faith and obedience to GB?
Can you be saved without that obedience?
If not then................?
Again you can’t see past your own programming......For example here: "To adopt such a distasteful symbol..." written by @Deeje in Post #127
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I am happy that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not use the cross; it is a Christian symbol and should therefore only be used by Christians.
You have let a group of men talk you out of believing that all Christians are born again and in the New Covenant. You have let them tell you that most of the New Testament does not apply to you. There is no scriptural basis for this, just what a small group of men, who keep changing their mind, tell you to believe.
Again you can’t see past your own programming......
There is no “cross” in that scripture. In Greek, “stauros” is the implement used to put Christ to death....it means an upright pole or stake. Something you would make a fence out of. The other word is “xylon” which is translated “tree”......wood. There is no “cross” in any verse of the Bible.
It is Jesus’ death that is symbolised by the word “stauros”, not the implement of his torture. It didn’t matter what instrument was used, because he had to die in order to redeem mankind....if he’d been hung or shot with arrows, would you be making gallows or arrows to symbolise Jesus’ death? It is the shedding of Jesus’ blood that saves us, not the method.
What if the command by Jehovah that demonstrated his abhorrence of images (so important that it was the second of the Ten Commandments) means that all those who use a cross (which was a religious symbol with disgusting origins long before Jesus gave his life) in their worship automatically disqualify themselves as his disciples? No images means no images....period.
The ankh cross of Egypt was a symbol of sexual intercourse, with the cross representing the male sex organ and the loop at the top representing the female part.
The cross is disgusting to God because it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a Catholic adoption and any use of an image in worship is disobeying God’s laws.....something that is obvious among them, and any who adopt this symbol in their worship.
Your disdain for JW’s is palpable and IMO that is because we undermine your belief that all Christians are “born again” and must necessarily go to heaven......that is apparently unthinkable to you.
Take the nation of Israel to whom God promised that they would become “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”. (Exodus 19:6)
Were the whole nation to become priests? Was it possible for kings and priests to come from the same tribe? Earthly Israel was “shadow” of the heavenly arrangement.
Only one tribe could produce priests (Levi) and only one tribe could produce kings (Judah).....so not just anyone in Israel could fulfill those roles. God chose who could fill those roles.
We find in Revelation, “new Jerusalem” spoken about as the rulers of Christ’s disciples on earth because only those chosen as “kings and priests” will rule with Jesus in heaven. (Revelations n 20:6) These it says will rule “man”.....humans on earth.....
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
(Revelation 21:2-5 ESV)
This ruling entity...”new Jerusalem”.....is God’s Kingdom...his means of restoring his original purpose for mankind on this earth......a government by God with his son as King and High Priest.
If you think about it logically, to suggest that all Christians must go to heaven is just plain silly. Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.....there are no sinners in heaven. And what would be the purpose of kings in that setting?
I'm glad you think so. Stay the way you are.Again you can’t see past your own programming......
There is no “cross” in that scripture. In Greek, “stauros” is the implement used to put Christ to death....it means an upright pole or stake. Something you would make a fence out of. The other word is “xylon” which is translated “tree”......wood. There is no “cross” in any verse of the Bible.
It is Jesus’ death that is symbolised by the word “stauros”, not the implement of his torture. It didn’t matter what instrument was used, because he had to die in order to redeem mankind....if he’d been hung or shot with arrows, would you be making gallows or arrows to symbolise Jesus’ death? It is the shedding of Jesus’ blood that saves us, not the method.
What if the command by Jehovah that demonstrated his abhorrence of images (so important that it was the second of the Ten Commandments) means that all those who use a cross (which was a religious symbol with disgusting origins long before Jesus gave his life) in their worship automatically disqualify themselves as his disciples? No images means no images....period.
The ankh cross of Egypt was a symbol of sexual intercourse, with the cross representing the male sex organ and the loop at the top representing the female part.
The cross is disgusting to God because it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a Catholic adoption and any use of an image in worship is disobeying God’s laws.....something that is obvious among them, and any who adopt this symbol in their worship.
I'm glad you think so. Stay the way you are.
I recommend every Christian here to stop discussing with Jehovah's Witnesses, let them be as they are.
behold ........Teritos has joined ...........the antichrist!I'm glad you think so. Stay the way you are.
I recommend every Christian here to stop discussing with Jehovah's Witnesses, let them be as they are. Proverbs 26:5