Isolde Schulz
Member
The entire aspect of inflicting pain with crosses and impalements is uncouth to me.
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a standing empty cross
- Thread starter cataway
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The entire aspect of inflicting pain with crosses and impalements is uncouth to me.
Brian2
Veteran Member
It is only the 144000 in WT theology who are part of the New Covenant.
It is strange that you say that all JWs believe they have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what God gives as part of the New Covenant.
Heb 8:10 Cross References (34 Verses)
If we read Romans 8 we see that to please God we should be lead by the Spirit.
Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
When we read further on we see this:
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
So are you led by the Spirit and please God and are children of God or what?
I hope I can demonstrate my faith by my works.
It is a hard line to draw at times, the line between working for salvation and working because of faith and salvation, letting faith work through love. I certainly do not want to judge anyone and say they are working for salvation BUT I think that the WT theology is heavy on the side of working for salvation even if individual members are not.
I did not say that works are not important. I agree with you and James and no doubt Paul. Faith without works is dead. Also faith works through love.
A belief alone that has no active component in works is not the faith that Jesus wants in us. Repentance is important in the gospel message and expressing the love that God gives us to express through His Spirit in us is important.
Whether those works include obedience to the WT is another thing.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I guess you didn't want to be corrected then?
All of JWs have holy spirit. There is a difference between having holy spirit, and being annointed by holy spirit, or born again. I wouldn't expect you would know that.
Again, clearly a demonstration of not wanting to be corrected.
I should have known, based on your MO.
What you think is irrelevant to what is.
I fail to see your argument.I did not say that works are not important. I agree with you and James and no doubt Paul. Faith without works is dead. Also faith works through love.
A belief alone that has no active component in works is not the faith that Jesus wants in us. Repentance is important in the gospel message and expressing the love that God gives us to express through His Spirit in us is important.
Whether those works include obedience to the WT is another thing.
You say, "The death of Jesus for them provides the opportunity to gain eternal life through works."
You were told No, and why your claim is false, and you turn again to your misguiding assertions. Mimicking the Pharisees who when they failed against Jesus, resorted to slander against him.
What does that say about the identity of your father? Your MO is showing.
The Watchtower is a Bible Society...it is a printery which distributes Bible based literature and information.
We are Jehovah's Witnesses. (Isaiah 43:10)
Since it was Jesus himself who appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45)...I'm supposing that those who choose their own food and feed themselves are somewhat delusional. If you are not part of a global brotherhood who all believe one truth and who follow the teachings of Jesus to the letter, despite persecution and opposition.....you are lost. Jesus can find you but you have to want to be found......willing to put away your own ideas and become part of God's universal family.
It is Jesus and Christian scripture who tells us what to believe and what actions to perform.
Please tell me what we do that is unscriptural.....
If you find the "slave" appointed by Jesus and feed at his table what is served "at the proper time", you will find an entire brotherhood sitting figuratively at your side enjoying the same meal.....even if they live in other nations on earth...but if you are eating alone or have difficulty swallowing what is served, then you should leave the table and find the one that is appointed by Jesus. We collectively enjoy every morsel.....it is nourishing and life saving and fed to the whole body of believers whether they attain to heavenly life or are to enjoy life on earth forever under the Kingdom's rule.....God's will is what is important, not our role in it.
InChrist
Free4ever
The Watchtower wouldn’t put so much continual effort into denying that Jesus died on a cross if they did not despise the gospel message it represents; that by Christ alone and His finished work one’s sins are forgiven and the gift of eternal life may be received through faith.
I can’t think of anything in this fallen world that hasn’t been tainted by paganism or have some connection to pagan symbolism. The reality is that God is sovereign and He uses things in the world and He accomplishes His will through human activities in spite of human sinfulness.
Teritos
Active Member
That is the truth. Even monotheism is present in paganism.
I have often met such people. Here are some examples I have heard from alleged Christians:
1. "the name Yahweh is evil because it was used for an Egyptian god"
2. "the name Jesus is evil because the name comes from a Greek god"
3. "the cross is evil because it was used in paganism"
4. "Israel is evil because it was used for three Egyptian gods"
.....
Everything in the Bible can be found in paganism, there are even "Gods" born of a virgin, hundreds of years before Jesus. This was copied from the Bible and not otherwise as some claim.
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The cross was never a symbol for Christianity in the first century.....it had no connection whatsoever to the death of Jesus for the simple reason that, the instrument of his torture was not the focus...it was the fact that Christ died (in whatever way) that freed obedient mankind from condemnation due to sin, granting forgiveness, not temporarily with the blood of animals but permanently, with the blood of a sinless man.
The making a symbol to represent Christ's sacrifice was far from the minds of the first Christians, many of whom were Jews and the making of images was forbidden to them by their God. They were not to "make an image of anything" to be used in their worship (Exodus 20:4)....and certainly not something with such a disgusting history.
To adopt such a distasteful symbol, with a history going back way before Christianity existed, and attach it to Christ's death would have been the ultimate slap in the face to his Father. Even in the Catacombs there was no symbol on the tombs of Christians for hundreds of years. The first being the fish and later after the establishment of Roman Catholicism, the cross was adopted.
God does accomplish his will through sinful humans....but he is not part of this world....he can use even his enemies to get things done. So what is his will for us?
Why is the whole world in the evil hands of God's adversary? Where is this all going?
"The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19) How much of the world is not under his control?.....he is the one Paul called "the god of this world" who is able to "blind the minds" of those who have no love of the truth. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) His influence is everywhere. But we are not ignorant of his methods or his agenda. We have God's word and the guidance of his spirit...but only if we are prepared not to compromise with the ways of the world. (1 John 2:15-17)
If God said he loathed images back in Bible times and made that part of his Ten Commandments, then because he does not change his standards, he still hates them. No images, no icons and no religious symbols to be used in our worship. That means no crosses either. It is the most bizarre thing to make an image of the instrument used to painfully put someone you love to death and to cherish it......Do you think God cherishes the "stauros" used to kill his son? Would you?
Teritos
Active Member
For example here: "To adopt such a distasteful symbol..." written by @Deeje in Post #127
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I am happy that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not use the cross; it is a Christian symbol and should therefore only be used by Christians.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I should be using the term Governing Body I guess. So obedience to the Governing Body.
Is it Jesus who appointed the GB to be the faithful and discreet slave? It was once said to be Charles Taze Russell and then the anointed class. But that aside, how do you know the GB is the faithful and discreet slave apart from what they say about themselves?
Surely they have made enough errors for you to realise they are not led by the Holy Spirit and do not feed the right food at the right time.
I would have to be willing to decide that the Bible does not mean what it says to become a JW.
All you have is a bunch of men who tell you they are it and there is no nourishment anywhere else. They are the ones who say that we cannot be fed anywhere else or by Jesus through His word and I have not seen any scriptural basis for that idea about needing one organisation let alone the GB of the JWs.
I could point to the Bible and tell you what you believe that is unscriptural, a whole bunch of passages that JWs have to deny because they are told to by the GB.
Spreading the word of God is good even if it is the wrong word. Following the rules of a bunch of men as if it is the word of God is something that is unscriptural. But it is your choice to follow rules as if it is a sin to break them. The GB has control of your conscience in respect of what is right and wrong.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I think I am looking to the Bible when I look at Romans 8 and 1John 5:1
1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him.
You have let a group of men talk you out of believing that all Christians are born again and in the New Covenant. You have let them tell you that most of the New Testament does not apply to you. There is no scriptural basis for this, just what a small group of men, who keep changing their mind, tell you to believe.
If you think that you need to be part of the only source of truth, a JW, and that you need to take in accurate knowledge of the truth from that source and need to be part of the preaching work in one way or another, of the organisation and to refrain from not only doing what is said to be wrong in the Bible but the list of things that the GB has added to those things by it's own authority then it is possible that you, like the Galatians have fallen away from the Gospel of Grace which the apostles preached and into a Gospel of works.
No organisation is going to admit to having a gospel of works. That is an outright contradiction of what Paul said. Still it is possible to believe a gospel of works without realising it. It is a subtle thing and Satan is definitely subtle in his approach to things.
I fail to see your argument.
You say, "The death of Jesus for them provides the opportunity to gain eternal life through works."
You were told No, and why your claim is false, and you turn again to your misguiding assertions. Mimicking the Pharisees who when they failed against Jesus, resorted to slander against him.
What does that say about the identity of your father? Your MO is showing.
I seem to remember being told by a JW that the death of Jesus provides the opportunity to gain eternal life.
Is that gained through faith and obedience to GB?
Can you be saved without that obedience?
If not then................?
Again you can’t see past your own programming......
There is no “cross” in that scripture. In Greek, “stauros” is the implement used to put Christ to death....it means an upright pole or stake. Something you would make a fence out of. The other word is “xylon” which is translated “tree”......wood. There is no “cross” in any verse of the Bible.
It is Jesus’ death that is symbolised by the word “stauros”, not the implement of his torture. It didn’t matter what instrument was used, because he had to die in order to redeem mankind....if he’d been hung or shot with arrows, would you be making gallows or arrows to symbolise Jesus’ death? It is the shedding of Jesus’ blood that saves us, not the method.
What if the command by Jehovah that demonstrated his abhorrence of images (so important that it was the second of the Ten Commandments) means that all those who use a cross (which was a religious symbol with disgusting origins long before Jesus gave his life) in their worship automatically disqualify themselves as his disciples? No images means no images....period.
The ankh cross of Egypt was a symbol of sexual intercourse, with the cross representing the male sex organ and the loop at the top representing the female part.
The cross is disgusting to God because it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a Catholic adoption and any use of an image in worship is disobeying God’s laws.....something that is obvious among them, and any who adopt this symbol in their worship.
Your disdain for JW’s is palpable and IMO that is because we undermine your belief that all Christians are “born again” and must necessarily go to heaven......that is apparently unthinkable to you.
But that is ridiculous no matter how you view it.
Take the nation of Israel to whom God promised that they would become “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”. (Exodus 19:6)
Were the whole nation to become priests? Was it possible for kings and priests to come from the same tribe? Earthly Israel was “shadow” of the heavenly arrangement.
Only one tribe could produce priests (Levi) and only one tribe could produce kings (Judah).....so not just anyone in Israel could fulfill those roles. God chose who could fill those roles.
Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, but was appointed as High Priest of spiritual Israel. (“according to the manner of Melchizedek”, who was both a king and a priest before the nation of Israel was formed) His city of Salem was thought to be the site of later Jerusalem, which incorporates its name.
We find in Revelation, “new Jerusalem” spoken about as the rulers of Christ’s disciples on earth because only those chosen as “kings and priests” will rule with Jesus in heaven. (Revelations n 20:6) These it says will rule “man”.....humans on earth.....
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (Revelation 21:2-5 ESV)
This ruling entity...”new Jerusalem”.....is God’s Kingdom...his means of restoring his original purpose for mankind on this earth......a government by God with his son as King and High Priest. Assisting him are 144,000 who are seen with him in heaven.....but a “great (unnumbered) crowd” are also seen attributing salvation to God and the lamb, but these are not part of the 144,000 who are in heaven. These are said to “come out of the great tribulation” that occurs on earth as Jesus said, was part of the end times. (Revelation 7:4, 9-10; 13-14)
If you think about it logically, to suggest that all Christians must go to heaven is just plain silly. Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.....there are no sinners in heaven. And what would be the purpose of kings in that setting?
It sounds to me like you would feel dudded if you weren’t going to heaven....JW’s have no such feelings.....we will happily serve our God wherever he puts us. He is the one who chooses his priesthood. It is not something we can volunteer for because each one is anointed by God’s spirit, individually chosen by him for that role. He chooses them......and he chooses the destiny of all of us....for some who deny his truth, there will be complete rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23) For others there will be a role on earth, which is where God put humankind in the first place. He never abandoned his first purpose. (Isaiah 55:11) His Kingdom is how he restores all that Adam lost for us.....Adam was never offered heaven. Life or death was the only option.
I am happy to be part of the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom. Would that be a demotion for you?
Brian2
Veteran Member
Maybe you have been programmed to read stauros as the meaning it had in 800 BC. When the Romans took over the stauros started to mean the execution method of the Romans. History and the Bible suggest that the cross was a cross.
It is Jesus death that is significant so why do JWs make such a big deal that Christians use the cross as symbolic of that death?
Your conscience has been altered or formed by a small group of men who claim authority to speak for God and make up laws that are not in the Bible. Symbolic representations of things in the OT were fine is they were not of God. What do you think the sanctuary and altar etc were but representations of the heavenly ones.
Those in Christianity are innocent in using a cross as symbol for the death of Jesus but are condemned by people who want to impose their man made laws onto all those who claim to be Christian.
Then they make up rubbish about a cross being evil because similar symbols have been used in the past to represent other things.
It is not just the cross that the Gov Bod do this with. They have a lot of man made rules which the JWs are expected to obey for no good reason than they say so. They say jump and all the JWs say, "how high.................Oh mighty ones."
Brian2
Veteran Member
How do you undermine that when the NT says that all Christians are born again (1John 5:1, John 14:23) and that God and the Lamb in the New Jerusalem are going to come to earth to be here forever. (Rev 3:12, Rev 21)
If you prefer what men say to what the Bible says that is up to you in the end.
In the New Covenant Christians are a nation of priests who offer the sacrifice of praise, and who are kings in this life and reign in their lives and will be kings of more in the coming age. Israel could have been that nation of Kings and Priests had they are believed, and it would not have been just a tribe or 2,,,,,,,,,,,,,Ex 19:6 was spoken of the whole nation. Those who are ruled over will be the nations who did not accept Jesus and become the first fruits of the Spirit.
1Peter 2:8and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed. 9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
After not recognising that “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” is a quote from Isa 8:14 about Jehovah and applied to Jesus by Peter the WT goes on to deny that Peter and all the New Testament is speaking to all Christians. We have had this discussion I think and you found no verses which speak divide Christians into 2 groups and deny the New Covenant etc to one of those groups and which say that heaven is the destination of one group and earth the destination of the other etc etc. It is all what the Gov Body say and that is whom you believe no matter what they say the Bible means. It is the same with the Baha'is even though it is no doubt easier to see with them.
There is nothing about one lot of Christians ruling over another.
Yes the New Jerusalem does come to earth and seems to stay there forever.
The Kingdom is not a Government but is the whole of the realm over which God rules. The New Testament saints are going to be there in the Kingdom.(Luke 13:28)
Heb 11:15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
The OT saints will be in the heavenly Jerusalem..................on earth. God ups and moves to earth.
Is there going to be sinning in the next life on earth? The Bible tells us that we can be priests and offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. As for Kings, who can tell what will be to rule over in the God's Kingdom.
No I don't say all Christians must go to heaven, I don't say that any of them must, as JWs say. I'm just open to whatever happens, BUT heavenly Jerusalem with God and the Lamb will be on earth.
Well @Brian2 it seems as if you've got it all worked out......apparently you are "the faithful and wise slave" and can "feed" yourself.....wonderful!....all the best with that. But you have to also feed the rest of Christ's entire family their "food at the proper time".....how's that working out?
But you have to also feed the rest of Christ's entire family their "food at the proper time".....how's that working out?
Teritos
Active Member
I'm glad you think so. Stay the way you are.
I recommend every Christian here to stop discussing with Jehovah's Witnesses, let them be as they are. Proverbs 26:5
Thank you...I will.
You recommend? And who are you? Someone with some kind of credibility here on RF?
Can you not provide any evidence for your assertions concerning the cross and its disgusting origins? It was a religious symbol long before Jesus even gave his life.....how do you think God feels about that?
If you had a child and someone shot and killed them, would you wear a replica of a gun around your neck and display it on your house?
cataway
Well-Known Member
behold ........Teritos has joined ...........the antichrist!
cataway
Well-Known Member
i dont know why i was surprised to find there is necklace that has the cross laying down . have not found a reason why it was made that way ,other than it could be done. viewed from the side it would look like a stick lol
if you must wear anything to denote you are Christion, wear this .
COLOSSIANS 3:5-17
5 Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality, uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion, hurtful desire, and greediness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. 7 That is how you too used to conduct yourselves in your former way of life. 8 But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, 10 and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythʹi·an, slave, or freeman; but Christ is all things and in all.
12 Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience. 13 Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. 14 But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.
15 Also, let the peace of the Christ rule in your hearts, for you were called to that peace in one body. And show yourselves thankful. 16 Let the word of the Christ reside in you richly in all wisdom. Keep on teaching and encouraging one another with psalms, praises to God, spiritual songs sung with gratitude, singing in your hearts to Jehovah. 17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.
if you must wear anything to denote you are Christion, wear this .
COLOSSIANS 3:5-17
5 Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality, uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion, hurtful desire, and greediness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. 7 That is how you too used to conduct yourselves in your former way of life. 8 But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, 10 and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythʹi·an, slave, or freeman; but Christ is all things and in all.
12 Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience. 13 Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. 14 But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.
15 Also, let the peace of the Christ rule in your hearts, for you were called to that peace in one body. And show yourselves thankful. 16 Let the word of the Christ reside in you richly in all wisdom. Keep on teaching and encouraging one another with psalms, praises to God, spiritual songs sung with gratitude, singing in your hearts to Jehovah. 17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.