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Is Deuteronomy 18:18 Jesus?

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
This narrative requires layers and layers of assumptions, but, that doesn't make it false.

But it's still irrelevant unless you can find exmaples where the Jewish people are instructed and/or rewarded for worshipping an Avatar of God defined as God incarnate in human form.

The crux of the issue is who is instructing Israel? Moses or God? And how to distinguish which is apparently transparently the case?



John
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It's the "foreign-ness" that's at the crux of the issue. Moses tells Aaron to place the jar of manna before the face of the Lord that's not foreign to him (Aaron). So Aaron places the jar of manna before the rod of Moses.

Is Aaron mistaking a foreign object as God? Or does the fact that modern Judaism doesn't recognize that Moses' rod is God imply that the Lord of Moses and Aaron is foreign to modern Judaism? If the latter, then perhaps the foreign God Jesus was advocating for is the God Aaron recognized by placing the jar of manna before Moses's rod; the foreign God that's foreign to Israel but not Moses, Aaron, and Jesus?
All of that happened before the Golden Calf. And you know what they say... "What happened before the Golden Calf, stays before the Golden Calf"
How do you know the tablets Moses received were written by the "finger" of God? Do you trust Moses that they were? Or were you there? If the former, then why do you trust Moses? Isn't he merely a mediator? Or, perhaps, his finger (Moses' writing hand) is the finger of God?

This is all a question of mediation. Why believe Moses that God gave him the tablets? Did God tell you personally that he gave the tablets to Moses? Or do you just believe it because Moses wrote it, and tradition seconds the motion? Why is Moses, or any other man, beyond repute to the degree that if he says he saw God, believe it? Worse, why, when Moses himself said Israel wouldn't believe it, did God fashion the serpent rod and imply that showing them that would make them believe?

Apparently it did make Aaron believe; since he put the manna before the serpent rod when told to put it before God. But it didn't seem to take for the rest of the children of Israel. Why?
If you don't think Deuteronomy is accurate, then there's no reason to debate further because the premise is moot.
And yet there are golden cherubim on the ark of the covenant?
That's how you know that cherubim aren't god or even god-like.
The crux of the issue is who is instructing Israel? Moses or God? And how to distinguish which is apparently transparently the case?
It's a good question. However the simple meaning of the text renders Jesus an apostate liable for the death penalty who doesn't qualify as a prophet. I agree with the simple meaning. It's most likely that the Jewish religion would not allow **under any circumstances** to follow a Man-God hybrid. It's too similar to what they had in Egypt under Pharaoh. Even if Aaron, Moses, any of the main characters in the story make mistakes along the way and find themselves worshipping idols, even if it was Moses' rod... It doesn't change the story. God incarnating as man is forbidden. Jesus advocating for himself as god makes him an apostate. It doesn't mean that you can't love him with all your heart. It just means he's not the Jewish messiah.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
I will raise up for them a prophet from among their countrymen like you(Moses), and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them everything that I command him.

Why I believe Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus:

  1. Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage, Moses in Egypt and Jesus during the Roman bondage of Israel.
  2. Moses' first miracle was to turn water into blood(Exodus 7:20), Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine(John 4:46).
  3. Both had seventy helpers, Moses(Numbers 11:16), Jesus(Luke 10:1).
  4. Both fasted 40 days and 40 nights in the desert, Moses(Exodus 34:28), Jesus(Matthew 4:2).
  5. Both faces shone on the mountain, Moses(Exodus 34:29), Jesus(Matthew 17:2).
  6. Both brought a new covenant, Moses the covenant of the law and Jesus the covenant of grace, see John 1:17.
  7. Both brought salvation, Moses saved the people of Israel out of Egypt and Jesus saves people out of eternal punishment through his death on the cross.
  8. Both are children of Israel and prophets.
  9. Moses gave water from the rock, Jesus is the rock and the water.
  10. Moses brought the first Holy Priest, Jesus is the last Holy Priest.
  11. Moses brought the law, Jesus fulfilled the law.
So what if Deuteronomy 18:18 is about Jesus ??

If it is, then, it only proves that Jesus is NOT God but just a prophet and the trinity is purely man-made nonsense. Deuteronomy 18:18 CLEARLY says, “I will raise up for them a PROPHET…..”. So, why are the Trinitarian Christians still think Jesus is God when God Himself has said He will raise a PROPHET as recorded in their own scripture ???
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So what if Deuteronomy 18:18 is about Jesus ??

If it is, then, it only proves that Jesus is NOT God but just a prophet and the trinity is purely man-made nonsense. Deuteronomy 18:18 CLEARLY says, “I will raise up for them a PROPHET…..”. So, why are the Trinitarian Christians still think Jesus is God when God Himself has said He will raise a PROPHET as recorded in their own scripture ???

Colossians 2:9 is where the Trinity is mentioned in the Bible. The formal doctrine was invented centuries later but the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible. The Trinity is not manmade. Religion is manmade. If God isn't a trinity, can we be saved? The answer is no. | carm.org

There is no way that mere humans can satisfy the infinite judgment of a holy God because we are finite and sinners. We are not capable of doing enough good or being good enough to make things right. The only one left who is capable of performing a perfect act of atonement is God himself. Therefore, God the Son came down in the form of Jesus and bore the wrath of God the Father. But this could not be possible if God were not a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The second person of the Trinity became a man (John 1:1, 14; Phil. 2:5-8) and was subject to the Law (Gal. 4:4), bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), and took our punishment (Isaiah 53:4-6). Without God being a Trinity this could not be possible; and there could be no full and complete incarnation which would make the sacrifice of Jesus of infinite value, which in turn would satisfy the judgment of an infinite God.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member

Why are you STILL listening to the words of other people and NOT the words of Jesus as recorded in your own scripture and yet still claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ ?? To be saved means to be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven in the afterlife. Didn’t Jesus tell you how to be saved, that is, to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Let me refresh your memory - in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he’s God and he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ??
 

Teritos

Active Member
So what if Deuteronomy 18:18 is about Jesus ??

If it is, then, it only proves that Jesus is NOT God but just a prophet and the trinity is purely man-made nonsense. Deuteronomy 18:18 CLEARLY says, “I will raise up for them a PROPHET…..”. So, why are the Trinitarian Christians still think Jesus is God when God Himself has said He will raise a PROPHET as recorded in their own scripture ???
Jesus is a prophet, a servant and a man. But he is not only that. He is more than that, he is God in the flesh(Colossians 2:9).

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous person on earth who always does good and does not ever sin.

1 Peter 2:22
Christ did not commit sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.
 

Teritos

Active Member
Let me refresh your memory - in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he’s God and he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ??
God's will is to believe with love that Jesus is the God and Creator of the universe(John 8:24) who died on the Cross for the sins of others(Matthew 26:28). No one gets eternal life by doing good works, one gets eternal life by believing in the right thing with love.

Grace means undeserved reward. (Revelation 22:17)
 
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Yahcubs777

Active Member
I will raise up for them a prophet from among their countrymen like you(Moses), and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them everything that I command him.

Why I believe Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus:

  1. Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage, Moses in Egypt and Jesus during the Roman bondage of Israel.
  2. Moses' first miracle was to turn water into blood(Exodus 7:20), Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine(John 4:46).
  3. Both had seventy helpers, Moses(Numbers 11:16), Jesus(Luke 10:1).
  4. Both fasted 40 days and 40 nights in the desert, Moses(Exodus 34:28), Jesus(Matthew 4:2).
  5. Both faces shone on the mountain, Moses(Exodus 34:29), Jesus(Matthew 17:2).
  6. Both brought a new covenant, Moses the covenant of the law and Jesus the covenant of grace, see John 1:17.
  7. Both brought salvation, Moses saved the people of Israel out of Egypt and Jesus saves people out of eternal punishment through his death on the cross.
  8. Both are children of Israel and prophets.
  9. Moses gave water from the rock, Jesus is the rock and the water.
  10. Moses brought the first Holy Priest, Jesus is the last Holy Priest.
  11. Moses brought the law, Jesus fulfilled the law.

No. And the proof is in Malachi 4:4-6 Matthew 17:11 John 16:12-15 Acts 3:19-23 Revelation 10:7

Jesus His Pre-Eminence is not the rock or the water. HE is GOD.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Why are you STILL listening to the words of other people and NOT the words of Jesus as recorded in your own scripture and yet still claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ ?? To be saved means to be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven in the afterlife. Didn’t Jesus tell you how to be saved, that is, to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Let me refresh your memory - in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he’s God and he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ??

Jesus mentioned the Trinity in Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
If you don't think Deuteronomy is accurate, then there's no reason to debate further because the premise is moot.

I think Deuteronomy is divine revelation. But the Hebrew letter are merely ---what did you call it ----- "vessels" for the spirit of the revelation contained in those vessels. Our entire dialogue is about how "vessels" or "avatars" mediate for the soul, or spirit, that's hidden inside the vessel?

Woe to the sinners who look upon the Torah as simply tales pertaining to things of the world, seeing thus only the outer garment. But the righteous whose gaze penetrates to the very Torah, happy are they. Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must be contained in an outer garment. That garment is made up of tales and stories; but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond.

The Zohar.​



John
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I think Deuteronomy is divine revelation. But the Hebrew letter are merely ---what did you call it ----- "vessels" for the spirit of the revelation contained in those vessels. Our entire dialogue is about how "vessels" or "avatars" mediate for the soul, or spirit, that's hidden inside the vessel?

Woe to the sinners who look upon the Torah as simply tales pertaining to things of the world, seeing thus only the outer garment. But the righteous whose gaze penetrates to the very Torah, happy are they. Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must be contained in an outer garment. That garment is made up of tales and stories; but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond.

The Zohar.​



John

"Woe to anyone who compares Him to any attribute, even to one of His own attributes, and certainly not to humans "whose foundation is in the dust" (Iyov 4:19)"

- Zohar
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Moses didn't part the red sea in the story; that was God...

The writer of the story mustn't have got the memo?

And you ---- lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and split it, so that the Children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground.

The Hirsch Chumash, Shemos 14:16.​



John
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Moses didn't part the red sea in the story; that was God...

The writer of the story mustn't have got the memo?

And you ---- lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and split it, so that the Children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground.

The Hirsch Chumash, Shemos 14:16.​



John
Verse 16 is clarified by verse 21

Shemos 14:21

21And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split.

Try again. I reassert: Moses didn't split the sea, that was God. Your attempt to deify Moses' rod has failed again. :p
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Verse 16 is clarified by verse 21

Shemos 14:21

21And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split.

Try again. I reassert: Moses didn't split the sea, that was God. Your attempt to deify Moses' rod has failed again. :p

Keep in mind that in my attempt to deify Moses' rod, I'm making it the avatar of the Lord, the vessel in which the Lord resides. So it's not that ironic that the verse I gave, and the one you gave, segue pretty nicely in my rendition:

And you [Moses]---- lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and split it, so that the Children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground. . . 21 So Moses stretched out his hand [with the staff in it] over the sea such that the Lord [in Moses' hand] led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split.​

We could almost imaging reading that in the middle of the night Moses arm grew weak so he let the Lord down. And the sea began to return to its original place until Hur and Aaron ran up and grabbed Moses hand (the one with the Lord in it), his right hand, and lifted it back up toward heaven so that the sea continued to split wherefore Amalek . . . I mean Egypt . . . was up ****z creek, or sea, as it were, without a lordly paddle or staff.



John
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Keep in mind that in my attempt to deify Moses' rod, I'm making it the avatar of the Lord, the vessel in which the Lord resides. So it's not that ironic that the verse I gave, and the one you gave, segue pretty nicely in my rendition:

And you [Moses]---- lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and split it, so that the Children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground. . . 21 So Moses stretched out his hand [with the staff in it] over the sea such that the Lord [in Moses' hand] led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split.​

We could almost imaging reading that in the middle of the night Moses arm grew weak so he let the Lord down. And the sea began to return to its original place until Hur and Aaron ran up and grabbed Moses hand (the one with the Lord in it), his right hand, and lifted it back up toward heaven so that the sea continued to split wherefore Amalek . . . I mean Egypt . . . was up ****z creek, or sea, as it were, without a lordly paddle or staff.



John
The Lord isn't the staff, ( Deuteronomy 4 ), but you're welcome to continue to imagine the story however you choose.

12The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.​
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
God's will is to believe with love that Jesus is the God and Creator of the universe(John 8:24) who died on the Cross for the sins of others(Matthew 26:28). No one gets eternal life by doing good works, one gets eternal life by believing in the right thing with love.
Grace means undeserved reward. (Revelation 22:17)
How is John 8:24 be understood as “God's will is to believe with love that Jesus is the God and Creator of the universe” ??? Care to explain ??

..And wherein the whole Bible did Jesus ever say or even imply he was sent to die for the sins of others ??? Read what Jesus said and NOT what other people said !
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Jesus is a prophet, a servant and a man. But he is not only that. He is more than that, he is God in the flesh(Colossians 2:9).
Well, the fullness of God in Jesus (Colossians 2:9) doesn’t make him God. Clearly, Paul did not see the fullness of God in someone means that someone is God too. In Ephesians 3:19 Paul said everyone should be filled with “all the fullness of God,” – does that mean Paul wanted everyone to be God ???

To have the fullness of God simply means to feel the full presence of God in oneself, and Jesus, being a prophet of God definitely felt or filled with the presence or fullness of God in him. In Ephesians 3:19, Paul prayed that every one too should feel the presence or the fullness of God in themselves too.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous person on earth who always does good and does not ever sin.
Sin simply means a state where one is when he/she disobeys God’s Commands. So, any person on earth who always does good and does not ever sin IS a righteous person and even if he’s sinless, that doesn’t make him God, that makes him a prophet-like person….. and if he’s truly a prophet, that’s what we expect him to be anyway, else he would NOT be a prophet of God, now would he ?

1 Peter 2:22
Christ did not commit sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.
That don’t make him God, but, a prophet of God who was sent to the lost sheep of Israel – Jesus himself said so.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Jesus mentioned the Trinity in Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Nope - Jesus did not mention trinity nor its concept in Matthew 28:19.

There’s a dispute even among the Christian scholars as ‘in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost' was said to be fabricated, that is, ‘in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost' was added on much later. The correct reading of Matthew 28:19 was said to be in Luke 24:47 – “and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. The phrase “repentance for the forgiveness of sins” is what baptism represents in the days of Jesus, which will be preached in his name – no Father/God, no Holy Ghost. The phrase “in his name” simply means by what Jesus had declared and that is, the repentance of sins will be preached. Jesus never declared remission of sins will be preached by his death, now did he ??
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The Lord isn't the staff, ( Deuteronomy 4 ), but you're welcome to continue to imagine the story however you choose.

12The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.​

Why is the ear-gate, or the ear-drum, able to discern a divine voice, but the eye-gate, the eye-ball, not able to discern a divine image? In other words, if God can vibrate an ear-drum why can't he manipulate the cornea of an eyeball?

Is sound sacred while sight is profane?



John
 
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