Shakeel
Well-Known Member
The Qur'an, the Sunnah and the scholars. So Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah.
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It is man's fault, not God's fault
- Thread starter Shakeel
- Start date
sealchan
Well-Known Member
So God hasn't failed just made mistakes?
Or does He absolve himself if respinsibility because of free will? Oh wait, He gave us that too so He is still responsible.
If you gave a child a loaded gun would 5he child or you be held accountable?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You know me don't you?
I blame God since God created the world the way it is, a storehouse of suffering.
The only thing that humans are responsible for are their moral choices since we have free will to choose.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
Here's the catch...whether you believe that someone created the Universe or no one did (no one with the agency to have had any idea of the consequences of what they did), the problem for human beings is the same...we exist in an apparently amoral creation that we feel compelled to make moral. I find it a fascinating assertion that in Genesis God pronounced His apparently amoral creation good...it is as if the author of the story knew this problem of morality could easily be laid at God's feet but also knew that the most important truth was that in fact creation is Good because God is good, not amoral as it would seem. Then every other part of the story HAD to bend itself to that one truth...
The result of that would be injecting hope into the very marrow of reality, comforting us in almost any situation so long as we dont think too much in practical and rational terms of what sensical human agency is like.
If God could be made to admit fallibility and granted good intentions we could resolve all of the moral accountability issues. However, as a consequence, we would be left with uncertainty with respect to hope. But then we could see God and ourselves as co-conspirators toward the end of making His creation actually good and I can find a great deal of comfort in that as well.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe in original sin so I do not believe we were tainted by Adam and Eve and need Jesus to save us from our sins.
I believe that we are created good as it says in Genesis but at birth we are amoral, since we do not know right from wrong; but then as we go through life we learn what is right and wrong and we start to make choices. I believe that we have two natures, a higher spiritual nature and a lower selfish nature and we have free will to choose to act according to one of those two natures. What we choose will determine who we become.
“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60
THE TWO NATURES IN MAN
Please list the things that are wrong with the world that aren't a result of human moral choices.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't argue with that. I might reply that God and humans are co-created observers of our reality. Whatever God is we cannot know beyond what we collectively surmise. The problems of our reality are the same, as far as we can tell, for God. His goodness is limited by our own vision from our perspective and our perspective is the only perspective we can achieve. We are creatures of a creation that continually evolves as if it is were creating itself...an ever-opening flower whose bud is lost in the limitless reaches of time and space and its unfolding.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Rather than list them I will post a quote that covers the general lay of the land and then you can explain to me how any of these are moral choices.
“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Perhaps that is why 'some people' who have suffered extensively do not see God as good whereas people who have had a happy life where things have generally gone their way see God as good.
“The necessity and the particularity of the assured and believing ones is to be firm in the Cause of God and withstand the hidden and evident tests. Thanks be to God that you are distinguished and made eminent by this blessing. Anybody can be happy in the state of comfort, ease, health, success, pleasure and joy; but if one will be happy and contented in the time of trouble, hardship and prevailing disease, it is the proof of nobility. Thanks be to God that that dear servant of God is extremely patient under the disastrous circumstances, and in the place of complaining gives thanks.” Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, p. 263
I agree with the part in italics but I do not necessarily agree with this whole paragraph because the way I read it he is saying that those who cannot be happy and contented in times of tests are not noble, they are weak souls. I know he believes this because of other passages he has written where he referred to weak souls. I think it is rather audacious and judgmental to call anyone a weak soul just because they cannot be happy in times of tests. Isn't it enough to patiently endure them?
It really bothers me when people expect others to be happy all the time when they have no idea what that person has to endure. Unless they have walked a mile in another person's moccasins they cannot ever know what that person has had to endure. Besides, why the requirement to be happy all the time? If someone is a naturally happy person fine, but to put that expectation upon everyone is just wrong, and the reason it is wrong is because it is lacking in compassion.
Sounds as if you think Adam and Eve were minor children _________
Adam and Eve were created as adults. Adam lived decades before Eve as created.
Yes, God is responsible for giving us free-will choices and Not making us as robots or automatons.
God forces No one to worship Him. God forces No one to live forever.
We are all free to act responsibly toward God and His Golden Rule - Leviticus 19:18.
It was the adults Adam and Eve who made mistakes. Adam made a deliberate mistake.
Genesis 2:17 informs us that breaking the Law carried with it the death penalty.
No mistake about that, Adam was told in advance what the Law was.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
And God made Adam and Eve...
The scary thing about literalists besides the fact that they naively believe that Adam and Eve literally existed is that they absolve God of all blame even as they claim He is the author of all. Seems like a convenient way to dodge their own culpability in life.
You have, perhaps, convinced yourself that you have addressed me, but it is obvious that you have dodged the question...how many times in the Bible has humanity as a collection of adults been referred to as God's children and why do you not acknowledge that the relationship between humanity and God is often characterized as that of His children to their Father?
sealchan
Well-Known Member
I agree. I have found a pathway to my own weakness by observing where the emotion of others was unacceptable to me. Expressing emotion (negative emotion in excess of what most people would typically see as called for), in the way I need to in the moment it arises, has often proven the best way for me to relieve the burden of what I would otherwise have had to bottle up inside. The emotion arises from my fears and through self-reflection I can try to ferret out my own ignorance and bias that gives rise to that emotion. This does the work that in the future promises more equanimity on my part towards the situation and an ability to perceive a deeper truth and a more just reality.
I think that if one examines themselves closely in this way, over time, they will become more and more able to meet adversity "nobly" in the way described above. This paragraph does not address how it is one is to become "noble", but seems to imply that one should simply put one's willpower into covering one's impatience. Whether that is the intended teaching depends, perhaps, on the context of the teacher's other teachings.
Jesus too acknowledged humanity as God's children by saying ' Our Father.......'
The word children does Not have to mean: minor children.
A 90 year old person can have children in their 60-70's who are adult children.
God forced No one to eat the forbidden fruit, but God forewarned Not to eat that fruit because of the danger of death.
If you put up a No trespassing sign over something forbidden and someone ignored your sign are you responsible ?
By God saying do Not touch, do Not eat, was just as if God put up a No trespassing sign on the forbidden tree.
For me sometimes it is putting my ' won't power ' into covering impatience.
Apparently we can become more 'noble', so to speak, by cultivating the fruitage of God's spirit - Galatians 5:22-23.
-> Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Mildness and Self-control.
Interesting post ^ above ^ but moral choices could be despite man's fallen condition by disobeying the Golden Rule.
Except for sleep, I find man is 'forced and compelled' only until the time the ' sin issue ' is settled here on Earth.
Then, there will be No injuries and misfortunes, No decline in power, No sickness and No death on Earth according to what we can learn from the Bible's viewpoint:
' Enemy death ' will be No more on Earth. There is coming ' healing ' for earth's nations.
-> Revelation 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that moral choices are because of man's fallen condition, because I do not believe in the Fall of Adam and Eve. Moreover, I do not believe that Adam and Eve were real people who existed and lived in a Garden; I believe it was an allegorical story that contained spiritual meanings. This is what I believe about the story of Adam and Eve:
“Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, 7 the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin.
This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 125-126
Read more: 30: ADAM AND EVE
I have a different interpretation of the Bible so I do not believe that those verses mean what you believe thy mean.
I believe that as long as man lives on Earth in a physical body man will always need to sleep and there will always be injuries and misfortunes, decline in power, and sickness and death on Earth, because this is a material world and we live in physical bodies. All the promises in the Scriptures refer to Heaven, when we will no longer have a physical body, we will have a spiritual body, and there will no longer be a need to sleep, and there will no longer be be injuries and misfortunes, decline in power, or sickness or death.
I believe that the following verses refer to spiritual death, not physical death. Physical death will always exist since God created us as mortals who have a given life span.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree. I do not think we should bottle up our emotions but at the same time I think we should be careful not to say things that could be hurtful or insulting to other people. I am aware that when I have a given emotional reaction to something someone says or believes why I have that reaction, and usually it is over a perceived injustice or something I believe is morally wrong.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
The story isn't that simplistic...first of all God put a tree in the Garden of Eden which was called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This name suggests that whoever eats of it will gain moral awareness like God has who knew enough to pronounce His creation Good. What does that logically imply about Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit? That they didn't have moral awareness.
Second, even though they understood not to do something that they were told not to do, God put a serpent in the Garden of Eden whose motivation was, apparently to convince Eve and Adam to eat that fruit. The Serpent's actions are not humanities' choice. The tree's existence is not humanities' choice. God giving Adam and Eve ignorance of moral awareness is not Adam and Eve's choice.
You are trying to make it out that Adam and Eve are to be understood as fully mature and aware adults in the sense that we know it today. That understanding makes no sense when applied to this story. They were as children with respect to moral awareness as the story clearly shows on so many levels.
You can't apply a literalist understanding to what is clearly a literary work...namely the Book of Genesis. I recommend that you study the literary analytical perspectives on this and other Biblical texts in order that you can understand better the intent of the author(s). This way you won't miss out on the full meaning of this sacred scripture.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Even IF you interpret the Genesis story literally, verse by verse, it does not support the belief that if Adam and Eve had NOT eaten the fruit from the tree, there would have never been physical death, that humans would have lived forever on earth in a physical body. That is simply a Christian belief that is nowhere to be found in the text, as I pointed out in this post. #252 Trailblazer
To me, the 'tree of knowledge of good and bad/evil' does Not have to mean who eats it will gain moral awareness.
God already set the moral standard for what was good and what was bad/evil.
By Eve doing what she did was more like Eve wanted to be her own 'goddess' and choose what is good or not.
God already set the moral standard for what was good and what was bad/evil.
By Eve doing what she did was more like Eve wanted to be her own 'goddess' and choose what is good or not.