To All Self-Proclaimed Christians

I have to disagree with you, Very Curious, about your notion that religion originated to explain things. If that were so, the Bible (to take just one example) would be loaded with even more explanations than it is. Again, if it were so, religion would have died out in the 20th Century. In fact, I think explaining the world is a relatively minor aspect of religion.

Because explaining things is more or less a sideline to religion, the fact that science provides better explanations than religion does not imply that science will ever replace religion.

Religion is deeply rooted in the human psyche. There are several precursor behaviors to religion that are more or less hardwired into human nature. This is another reason religion isn't going away due to science. Religion will be around as long as our species is around, as long as humans are human.

Were you disagreeing with me or OP, Phil?

Godlike said:

Were you disagreeing with me or OP, Phil?

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The OP of course.

Sunstone said:

The OP of course.

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Cool, sorry, my post directly precedes yours, that's all.

Poetic Hypocracy said:

Honestly guys not trying to offend anyone, but the bible is a load of crap. The present day bible was thrown together by a roman pagan ruler to unify the christians. THANKS alot.... now theres a bunch of yall. But, if knowing a pagan ruler organized your "Book of God" Then say a prayer or two for Constatine.... since thats what he was.

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You can thank that "load of crap" for the fundemental principles our constitution was written by, which resulted in the greatest nation on earth. Coincidence? I think not!

Sunstone said:

Hi Very Curious!

I agree with you to some extent. I think the promise of heaven or the threat of hell in Christianity can be tremendously distracting for many people from the beauty and spirituality of Christianity. As Luna says, that might be the cross that Christians must bear.

Do you allow a desire for heaven and a fear of hell to guide you? If you do, you risk loosing your spirit, IMHO. But the Christian message that you should love your neighbor as yourself and love God seems to me to steer many other people in the right direction for spiritual fulfillment.

Of course, I'm not a Christian, so I'm not sure I understand these things as well as, say, Luna, Michel, Sojourner, or many others on this board.

Welcome to the Forum!

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"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Navigator said:

You can thank that "load of crap" for the fundemental principles our constitution was written by, which resulted in the greatest nation on earth. Coincidence? I think not!

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Actually you will find no mention at all of God or Jesus Christ in the Constitution in its original form--even including the Bill of Rights.

You won't find mention of pursuing happiness either, nor will you find it in Thomas Paine.

The Supreme Court Building has a representation of Moses amongst the Law-Givers, but Jesus is not depicted there.

Regards,
Scott

Navigator said:

You can thank that "load of crap" for the fundemental principles our constitution was written by, which resulted in the greatest nation on earth. Coincidence? I think not!

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"O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! Ye were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancour. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind. Let your eye be chaste, your hand faithful, your tongue truthful and your heart enlightened. Abase not the station of the learned in Baha and belittle not the rank of such rulers as administer justice amidst you. Set your reliance on the army of justice, put on the armour of wisdom, let your adorning be forgiveness and mercy and that which cheereth the hearts of the well-favoured of God."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 138)

Regards,
Scott

Hello verycurious,

Just wanted to acknowledge your post, and welcome you to RF.

As I am not a self-proclaimed Chrisitian, I am not suited to comment upon your qualified invitation for reply.

Look around, and stay awile. ;-)

For some of us, it's got nothing to do with religion or religiosity. It's got everything to do with Love

Navigator said:

You can thank that "load of crap" for the fundemental principles our constitution was written by, which resulted in the greatest nation on earth. Coincidence? I think not!

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Hi Navigator!

I think most historians would disagree with the nowadays popular notion that the Bible was a major source of fundamental principles for the US Constitution. I realize that notion has been making the rounds these last few years, but it certainly doesn't have much credence with most historians --- who are in the best position to know the truth of this issue.

Next time you hear that myth repeated you, you might ask what is the evidence for asserting that the Bible was a major source of fundamental principles for the US Constitution? I don't think you'll get a very satisfactory answer.

Navigator said:

You can thank that "load of crap" for the fundemental principles our constitution was written by, which resulted in the greatest nation on earth. Coincidence? I think not!

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If that were true perhaps America would be a little more pro-choice. After all, how many infants did God himself manage to kill?

Sunstone said:

Hi Navigator!

I think most historians would disagree with the nowadays popular notion that the Bible was a major source of fundamental principles for the US Constitution. I realize that notion has been making the rounds these last few years, but it certainly doesn't have much credence with most historians --- who are in the best position to know the truth of this issue.

Next time you hear that myth repeated you, you might ask what is the evidence for asserting that the Bible was a major source of fundamental principles for the US Constitution? I don't think you'll get a very satisfactory answer.

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I base it on two things. First, the founding fathers were self proclaimed God fearing men many of whom knew the Bible very well and were tired of the religious persecution. Second, all commandments are summed up with "love your neighbor as yourself". There may be an aspect that I am unaware of, but IMHO the constitution encompasses the simple principle of the golden rule.

Navigator said:

I base it on two things. First, the founding fathers were self proclaimed God fearing men many of whom knew the Bible very well and were tired of the religious persecution.

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Examples?

Navigator said:

Second, all commandments are summed up with "love your neighbor as yourself". There may be an aspect that I am unaware of, but IMHO the constitution encompasses the simple principle of the golden rule.

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This principle is much older and much more widespread than the Bible. It is part of every major religious system and almost every major philosophy in human history. That it is in the Bible and underlies the Constitution is more likely coincidental.

verycurious said:

A lot of this is not going to make sense, since I’m just basically writing whatever is coming into my mind right now so bear with me.

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

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Yes, there are a lot of that. Kind of like Jesus' parable of the pharisee and the tax collector. It's not about their spiritual benefit. It's about their reward. Getting into heaven is not a spiritual benefit; becoming a better embodiment of God's will on earth is.

O my Lord, if I worship Thee from fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship Thee in hope of Paradise, exclude me thence, but if
I worship Thee for Thine own sake withhold not from me Thine
eternal beauty.

-- Rabi’a al-Adawiyya

verycurious said:

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless.

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Wow, spoken like a true Catholic! Won't even allow yourself the joy of helping someone else without feeling guilty about it? I used to get hung up on this until someone taught me to focus a little more on the good that these acts accomplish. If you help someone else, even if you are motivated by your own self interest, that doesn't totally negate the good you do. Cut yourself and others some slack.

I should add that I love Rabi'a's poem (and quote it often) but honestly, I would ask that God cut those who worship in fear some slack. They create their own hell by their fear. For that matter, those who think they are entering heaven because of "right belief" are creating their own barriers to heaven.

verycurious said:

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence,

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Is that the reason to have faith in "Him" because you can't be sure? Aren't you just still brown-nosing then, except maybe less obnoxiously? What is your motivation for believing even when your not sure?

verycurious said:

I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

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I think "trust" is a better word too. But I question what you are placing your trust in? Is it God's existence or something else? When you say you trust the Knicks you don't say that you trust they exist. You say that you trust they will make it to the Final Four. So what would be the equivalent for God?

verycurious said:

Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.

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Sounded more like thinking out loud.

verycurious said:

Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?

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What do you think?

Nice to meet you btw.

Addendum:
I just read some other posts which reminded me that you addressed this to self-proclaimed Christians and therefore I shouldn't have answered. Sorry. Feel free to disregard!

Honestly guys not trying to offend anyone, but the bible is a load of crap. The present day bible was thrown together by a roman pagan ruler to unify the christians. THANKS alot.... now theres a bunch of yall. But, if knowing a pagan ruler organized your "Book of God" Then say a prayer or two for Constatine.... since thats what he was.

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hah, I just noticed this statement!!! Ok, so...going back to the top...

Not trying to offend you, either, but saying that te Bible was just thrown together by one person is nothing short of ignorant.

doppelgänger said:

Examples?

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Religious Affiliation of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL204

www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html


From wikipedia
In terms of religious affiliation, the men were mostly Protestants. Only three, C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons, were Roman Catholics. Several were not particularly religious, and many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were vocal about their opposition to organized religion (anti-church). Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson's Bible"), Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine. However, a few of the more notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be Deists or held beliefs very similar to that of traditional Deists.
Notwithstanding the spectrum of beliefs held by the Founding Fathers, it can be noted that nearly all of them viewed religion in a favorable light. This is noted through their statements in speeches and correspsondence in which they due describe its role in molding "national morality" and securing the rule of law (George Washington), its check on human "wickedness" (Benjamin Franklin), and its preservation of a free government (John Adams, William Penn) such as America.
Although not a religion, a significant number were Freemasons including John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney.

This principle is much older and much more widespread than the Bible. It is part of every major religious system and almost every major philosophy in human history. That it is in the Bible and underlies the Constitution is more likely coincidental.

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You have a point, and it makes perfect sense when you consider the overwhelming majority of ancient text, still in existence, can be found in the Bible. It is also the most well known and available, world wide, religious text by far.

Navigator said:

You have a point, and it makes perfect sense when you consider the overwhelming majority of ancient text, still in existence, can be found in the Bible. It is also the most well known and available, world wide, religious text by far.

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Fascinating... I had no idea that the Analects of Confucius were included in the books of the bible!
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

[/FONT]And the Hindu Mahabharata.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "[/FONT]

And the Buddhist Udana-Varga.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18[/FONT]

And the Islamic Hadiths.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

And the Taoist Tao te Ching.
[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

And Baha'i.
[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah

And [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Zoroastrian.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Many of these scriptures predate the Christian bible btw.

And lets not forget that Christianity got the Golden Rule from Judaism.
[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18[/FONT]

Navigator said:

Religious Affiliation of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL204

www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

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Unitarian is under-represented btw:

John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams
Millard Fillmore
William Howard Taft

(Not that we're too proud about claiming Fillmore and Taft.)

And given that Unitarians got our name by denying the trinity and the infallibility of the bible, you might not consider us "Christian."

Hmm... three out of the first six presidents. Would that count as "FOUNDING"?

lilithu said:

Unitarian is under-represented btw:

John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams
Millard Fillmore
William Howard Taft

(Not that we're too proud about claiming Fillmore and Taft.)

And given that Unitarians got our name by denying the trinity and the infallibility of the bible, you might not consider us "Christian."

Hmm... three out of the first six presidents. Would that count as "FOUNDING"?

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Maybe it was bacause they were moderate and therefore gained respect from all of the founders.

The trinity is a tough one. We objectively, as humans, cannot comprehend three in one; Jesus, the holy spirit, and God. It requires faith.

Three out of the first six president, yes. Only six of the two hundred four founding fathers.