rrobs
Well-Known Member
I wasn't thinking of them particularly. I was thinking more about non-believers.Don't know how many young earth creationist are on the forum. But guess its directed at them
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Genesis Creation
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
rrobs
Well-Known Member
While true they didn't have atom smashers and telescopes, they did have eyes. With those eyes they observed nature and came up with a model that fit their observations. I suppose they could have come up with some other model, but it would never have been like our modern day model.
How about a little mental exercise? What model would you come up with if the only tool you had was your eyes? Seriously, try to sit down and draw the universe without resorting to anything you've learned from our modern science. Not very easy, is it? Come on, give at least some credit to the ancients for having come up with a model that fit their observations.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
No. More like I'm not going very far at all in denying human ability to get past their own egos.
God is not limiting you. You are limiting Him.
I made it clear that there are different definitions for the same word, it it not a point of accepting yours or not, it is a point of fact.
Yet it us translated as omnipotent, which you said earlier doesn't exist in the bible. Or did i misunderstand you?
What? Devil? Nope, it was Rome.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
But why would non believers want it to conform to modern science, we don't believe it is true at all and that it is written by humans which didn't knew better.
(Might have misunderstood you)
Gobbledygook. Ego has nothing to do with the statement, if god is so great then why was he incapable of teaching QM? That is your gods limitation, not mine
rrobs
Well-Known Member
You are missing my point here. I'm probably not being clear, so it's on me.
Genesis was perfectly accurate to the people to whom it was actually given. I would imagine God would give a different description of creation had He waited until this 21st century to write the scriptures.
God says that the reason this earth is not an ideal place, is because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. They did not take care of the perfect creation God gave them. It became imperfect by their thinking they could God. That's the sum essence of what Genesis says. To what would you attribute the evil we see happening on a daily basis all over the world?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Well, many non-believers dismiss the scriptures based on their view that Genesis does not agree with their modern god of science. I was just trying to say that God had no intention of going into minute detail on the nature of our world. It's not necessary that we know about the expanding universe to bring about our redemption. I'm sure He knows way, way (inflatable more) more about it than even our modern science knows, so it's pretty sad to see so many base their future on science instead of the scriptures. That's why I pray for them.
You seem to understand those ideas? Why couldn't any human being? If this god were real and dictated scripture, the account might be condensed, but it shouldn't have any wrong ideas. I'm personally not interested in legend or myth.
Imagine the power of a scripture saying that If thou groweth a particular fungus and collect its discharges, they can be used to correct infections, which are caused by tiny beings too small for you to see, but capable of causing death." The obvious reason why no such insight are recorded in scripture is simply that the authors had no knowledge of them, meaning that the authors were human, not divine. A god would do better. Why try to convince people of your divinity with parlor tricks when you can show superhuman knowledge of things like antibiotics?
"Lo and behold! The universe came into being one moment and began expandething for eighteen thousand thousand thousand years, extremely rapidly for a season, yeah verily eventually formething clusters of stars, including one containing the sun and earth formething when the universe was more than half it's present age," etc..
It would be easier for a god than it was for me, but not for ancients that didn't know where the rain came from. The would be expected to write mythology, like every other pre-modern culture.
Then why read such a book if you don't have a child-like bronze age mind? Nothing in that books speaks to me here in the 21st century.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Hmmm....then I guess there's no reason you can't know everything concerning 41st century science. After all, you have no such limits. It couldn't possibly be you that is incapable of knowing such knowledge. Your ignorance of things you can't possibly know must be God's fault.
Do you know differential calculus? Assuming not (most don't), is that God's "fault?"
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I kinda thought you felt that way.
Sorry if I seem dismissive. You raised some good points. It's just that I'm burned out right now. I'll try to address your reply later.
Take care.
Colt
Well-Known Member
The problem with the Bible is that some if it is true. Superstitious men writing about ancient events handed down via oral tradition through fragmented cultures, disrupted by endless wars and influenced by multiple evolved religions.
Suppose there really were two incarnate celestial beings from another world who arrived on a confused and disrupted evolutionary world 30,000+ years ago? Failing their ordained mission , losing the use of their sustaining shrub. Events left open to interpretation by subsequent generations? Adopted by Israelites in their creation narrative, it might look something like what we have in the OT. The authors of scriptures are neither historians or philosophers. Soooooo many influences come to bear in the creation of scripture and interpretation of the past.
Agree, but I'd word it differently. I'd say that the problem is that it's not all true. Remember, the Bible is only interesting if its the unadulterated word of a superhuman intelligence. Otherwise, it's just more literature.
As soon as there is any evidence of a human contribution, and with no way to tell if any of it is from a god let alone which parts if it is only partially true, the book loses its authority. I don't really care what people think I should believe or do. I decide that myself, but would defer to a divinity.
But if some or all of the book is of human origin, and there is no way to tell if any of it much less which parts are accurate, then none of it is reliable.
Again, if you're going to introduce naturalistic explanations for the existence of scripture, then the scripture loses significance. If it's not of divine origin, it might as well be The Illiad. I'm not basing my life on that, either.
Colt
Well-Known Member
I would say that beings of relative divinity were involved leading to much speculation and conjecture by superstitious humans.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Do you think the creation story would have been worse or less effective if things had be created in the correct order? and if not, then why do you think it weren't written that way?
more irrelevant gobbledygook because you can't say why your god is not god enough god teach
I'm genuinely not clear what you mean by this. I thought we just agreed that Genesis is not at all accurate in its description of the creation of the world. So by "accurate to the people to whom it was actually given," do you mean the people who wrote Genesis thought it was an accurate description? If that's what you mean, sure, but that is almost a truism; of course they thought what they were writing was true, or they would've written something else. The question is whether what they wrote was actually accurate, not merely whether they thought it was. And what I thought we had already agreed was that Genesis was not actually accurate, regardless what the authors may have thought at the time. Which leads to my question: if other parts of the story aren't actually accurate, what convinces you that the Adam and Eve part is?
God says that? Or a human being claiming to speak for God says it? Why should we believe them?
I've read Genesis multiple times, and I never once recall reading that. You're reading Christian presuppositions into the text of Genesis, it seems. And again, assuming that is what it says, again, my question is: what convinces you that tale is actually true?
There are multiple causes, depending on how you define "evil."
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Unlike the average Sumerian, I was able to attend Georgia Tech.
But then if it weren't for the "ignorant" ancient Middle Easterner coming up with, oh, say something like metalurgy, then poor 'ol GA Tech would never have seen the results of an atom smashing and then I'd still think like the old way.A god would do better? That's a huge assumption. Not much different that believing God created Adam and Eve.
Well I could use any number of ancient texts, secular or religious, to point out your arrogance in describing some of the most successful societies of all time as having a child like bronze age mind, but I won't....ooops....I guess I kinda did...
No offense intended, but really think about it. You'd probably take it back. You seem like a decent sort to me.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
You seem to understand what I'm saying.
RE: Adam and Eve
In the OP I proposed that the subject of the scriptures is Jesus Christ. I gave a couple of verses there.
More specifically, the entire book, from Genesis 3:15 onward, was given so that the man who was to be born as the redeemer, i.e. Jesus Christ, would know both who he was, i.e. God's only begotten son, as well as what he needed to do to redeem mankind from sin (dysfunctional behavior) and it's resultant death. They were Jesus' instruction books. While it was not relevant as to how the material universe came into existence, it was highly relevant as to what Adam and Eve did. They are an important part of the equation, whereas the material universe if of little importance. The ancient Near Eastern man had little concern for materialism so God just "went along with the program" and let the Jews think like the rest of the ancient Near East.
However, there is one huge difference in the Genesis account of creation than all the other ancient texts. It is only in Genesis that we are told that God existed apart from the creation. All others say things like, "god rose up from the deep." That means the deep existed before their god. The scriptures declare that Yahweh existed before the deep, that He Himself created the deep from which sprang all else.
Thanks
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
According to the best theory we have today as to the origin of this generation of the universe, it was some 14 billion years ago, that an immense explosion, known as the Big Bang, spewed out massive amounts of liquid like electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees, creating a rapidly expanding universe.
Within moments of the expansion, the universal temperature had dropped to some billions of degrees, and the vibrating wave particles, which were the quantum of that energy, collided in nuclear fusion reactions to form hydrogen and helium and when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen, would be created.
As said previously, bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.
The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed. Those first gigantic stars, in which the heavier elements were created, from which the galaxies would later be created and which massive stars would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.
The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.
This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.
Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.
This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.
It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heavier elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].
The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.
Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.
Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form.
Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.
As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.
By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.
PROTO-HUMANS WERE NOT HUMANS AND THE PROTO-SUN, WAS NOT YET OUR SUN.
Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.
This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.
Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.
Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.
Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.
These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.
Within moments of the expansion, the universal temperature had dropped to some billions of degrees, and the vibrating wave particles, which were the quantum of that energy, collided in nuclear fusion reactions to form hydrogen and helium and when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen, would be created.
As said previously, bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.
The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed. Those first gigantic stars, in which the heavier elements were created, from which the galaxies would later be created and which massive stars would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.
The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.
This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.
Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.
This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.
It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heavier elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].
The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.
Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.
Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form.
Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.
As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.
By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.
PROTO-HUMANS WERE NOT HUMANS AND THE PROTO-SUN, WAS NOT YET OUR SUN.
Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.
This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.
Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.
Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.
Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.
These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.