lukethethird
unknown member
How important are facts within your religious beliefs?
Facts???
Facts???
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How important are facts within your religious beliefs?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whaever books had been published about the Bahai faitrh at that time and I read the Writings of Bahaulah and abdul-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.
Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.
It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind. In the Preface to the paperback it says:
“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings
And now that I have clearly glimpsed the spirit of this book I guess I am a lifer.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Facts are the most important.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Does God exist? Does God help those that love him and obey him? If, in fact, God did help the Israelites cross the sea and escape the Egyptian army, then God does exist and he does help his people. But if the story is just a myth then what? A mythical God helped his people in a mythical story? But no, Baha'is are saying the stories about what God has done are myth but God is real? He's just invisible and unknowable, so whatever Baha'u'llah says about him becomes "facts". And those people that believe the Bible stories as "facts" are mistaken? But, we've talked about this before. I think that people wrote the stories as if they were facts to get people to believe and obey in an invisible God that rewards those that obey him and punishes those that disobey him.
Baha'is try to, somehow, make God involved in the writing. They try and make it seem like God influenced or "inspired" the writers to write allegorical stories. So, even though, they sounded like historical "facts", they weren't. They were just fictional stories meant to teach a spiritual lesson or something. If that is not right, could you clarify what Baha'is really believe about those "mythical", fictional Bible stories... like the parting of the sea? 'Cause, as you know, I don't think that if they were meant to be taken allegorical, and actually, in the beginning, taken allegorically, it would have gotten the people to believe in God and fear him enough to follow and obey his laws and rules.
Believing in virgin births and believing all or most of the words of Paul and Jesus in the New Testament to be historical are examples of belief in religious myths.
My spiritual path has no religious beliefs, it does away with religious myths and superstitions and embraces science, both the intuitive or introspective science and the science of the objective world.
Somewhat important but not necessary. You can go a long way without facts even with wrong information. God's head seems unturned by the most backward of wrongness. Doesn't even seem to notice. On the opposite side: here am I cracking the bible code, revealing ancient truth; and where is my parade? Where is the money? Why am I not being approached by editors and publishers?
firedragon
Veteran Member
In Islam, the dogmatic version of it has a few sciences to theology. One of them is usul ul hadith. THis is probably the most dogmatic sciences in Islam. Yet, even this is "ALL" about facts. It is all about historicity.
I dont say that they will arrive at historical findings all the time, but their approach is all about finding facts. This has been the history of this practice since at least the second century hijri.
Of course. What is true for a Baha’i may be false to a JW. What is true for a JW may be false for a Baha’i.
My beliefs are not dependent on whether or not an event recorded in the Bible literally happened.
How would I investigate? Examining the text itself recording the miracle. Having access to extra biblical sources is invaluable. None of us were there witnessing the events recorded. Allowing for an All Powerful God, it is impossible to know for certain. It is a matter of faith.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Am I correct then in saying faith in what one wants to believe? How is that faith?
Did not the same God of the Israelites perform miracles in behalf of the Israelites? Why are these myths to Bahai, and not miracles by God?
Why lack faith in those? How do they differ to the miracle of Jesus' birth?
It seems to me, Bahais are picking and choosing, from the Bible, what they want to believe, and what they don't want to believe, and it makes me suspicious that it has to do with the influence of the worldly wise, and fear of being ridiculed for their beliefs.
For example, Moses is not accepted as a historical figure, by most scholars, but Jesus is. So I think that influences the Bahais view on miracles associated with Moses - they are happy to dismiss these as myth, and miracles associated with Jesus - they can accept those.
You say it's faith. It has nothing to do with facts then. Or faith comes in where facts are lacking?
Bahais imo, use faith in cases where it favors them - i.e. when it doesn't conflict with Bahaullah.
I believe facts are very important in the one true faith,
It has been shown repeatedly that the Bible contains many historical facts.
As one example, the attack on the cities of Judah, and the attempt to take Jerusalem, during the rule of Hezekiah have been confirmed.
Why Sennacherib failed to take Jerusalem, and retreated to his land, is recorded as a fact, in the Bible.
People don't have to believe the Biblical account. That's up to them.
All of the Bible accounts don't need to be confirmed.
Miracles do not make the account less reliable.
What's puzzling me, is that persons will say they believe in a supernatural almighty God, and yet not accept miracles in the time of the nation of Israel - the only nation associated with the true God, in the Tanakh, and accept other miracles - none of which they personally witnessed, and thus no different to earlier miracles.
So it seems as I said above. I believe it's a matter of influence.
Therefore, the foolish thing of God, are rejected for the wisdom of this world... which is foolishness to God... and to me.
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InChrist
Free4ever
If a person is going to believe in something and/or place their trust in Someone then I think truth and facts are important. Especially, when it pertains to something as critical as one’s eternal destiny.
From my perspective, God the Creator of heaven and earth, took great care to set His interactions with humanity and prophetic words in the historical context of this world, involving actual people, cultures, and events.
“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”
2 Peter 1:16-21
Yes
Yes
Why does it matter so much?
No. There are historical parts to the story but if our attention is directed towards the impossible task of sifting myth from fact the main purpose of the story is lost. God is real and He assists those who love and obey Him. Sometimes that love for God entails severe tests and difficulties but ultimately we triumph if we are faithful to Him.
Part history, part myth.
That is true for Baha’is. We still have to carefully consider the textural and historical context to understand what Bahá’u’lláh is saying but its a heck of a lot more straightforward than interpreting books that are thousands of years old IMHO.
People wrote the stories to sound historical, that is true. That approach was inspired by God.
Yes
Specifically in regards the parting of the sea:
The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption. The Egyptian History recorded even trifling events. Had such a wonderful thing happened as the partings of the physical sea it would also have been recorded. – Daily Lessons Received at ‘Akka, p. 45.
The Trouble with Miracles
I agree the stories were written to be believed.
nPeace
Veteran Member
CG Didymus" said:
Did it not matter to Jesus and his apostles? Why did it matter to them? Why should it not matter to us?adrian009 said:
It mattered to them because it was part of the history of God's dealings with his people. It was history. Not myth, to them.
Those of God's people do not write them off as myth, because God had these real events recorded for a purpose.
Romans 15:3, 4 ;Hebrews 12:25, 26 ; Jude 5-7
No, that’s not how it is at all. Let me ask you you, why do you have faith in Jesus and the Bible? Is it because that’s what you want to believe in?
You are assuming the story of Moses parting the sea is literally true, therefore it is true to God. It is certainly your faith and belief that these aspects of the Bible are literally true. That is your faith. As we both know there is insufficient evidence to conclusively establish the historicity of the Exalted Personage Moses let alone the parting of the sea. So while I have faith Moses existed and was a Great man in God, I don’t have faith everything written in the Torah about Him is literally true. You appear to have such a faith in biblical literalism.
Make no mistake though, both of our perspectives are because we place faith in a set of teachings. That is very different from fact. Same deal with the Virgin Birth. It is a faith based belief for us both. It just happens to be a place where our respective faiths agree whereas with the Red Sea, we don’t.
No. Its not about picking and choosing. For Baha’is it is about having faith in Bahá’u’lláh as you have faith in Christ. However my paradigm doesn’t provide all the answers, rather provides the tools where we may discover the answers for ourselves. You appear to be pigeonholing the Baha’is into your paradigm. That is only natural.
You appear to have it wrong again about the Baha’is. It not that we accept the Gospel miracles and reject those in the Torah. Rather we de-emphasise miracles including those performed by our twin Prophets. Miracles are seen as being proofs for those who were there, not as proofs that support our beliefs.
What does it matter if a cripple could walk but it does matter that through the Teachings of Christ multitudes can walk the spiritual path. The blind can see the true nature of Christ. Like the loaves and fishes and wine, those who hunger and thirst have in Christ have plenty of spiritual sustenance through the Word of God.
As your beliefs conform to your understanding of the Bible, so too does the Baha’i’s Faith eventually conform to how we understand Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings. But that is faith for us both, not facts.
I have no doubt the Bible provides useful historical information that is confirmed by science. It is a huge leap of faith to assume everything in it is literally true.
Why does it matter so much to you?
So it seems as I said above. I believe it's a matter of influence.
Therefore, the foolish thing of God, are rejected for the wisdom of this world... which is foolishness to God... and to me.
Of course. You are a JW who views all other religions within Christendom and beyond with suspicion. That appears neither wise nor taught by God. However I am a Baha’i who tries to look for the good in all, even the JWs. Peace.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I trust the Bible because it gives evidence of being truthful - including what it says about God and Christ. I believe it is the inspired word of God, based on what I observe to be true in conjunction with what's stated in the Bible.
It's like... a man said to me, there are plenty fish at point x. I go to point x, let out my rod, and catch plenty fish. The man does that repeatedly in various situations, and I find it to be just as he says. I would not say I have faith in the man. I trust him. I might have faith in his promises, as I have faith in the Bible's promises which have yet to be fulfilled, but the Bible presents facts which I believe and take them as such. So I trust it.
You accept what science "tells" you, based on evidence it presents. Would you say you have faith in science, or would you say you believe science provides you with truthful answers? Are there one and the same?
Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by faith. People tend to use the word differently, so I hope you understand what I am saying.
I think you have that first statement backwards.
As I said, I trust the Bible to be the word of God, based on what have been confirmed, and what we have observed to be true.
Therefore, the parting of the Red Sea would be an accurate account, since it follows the events in which God, is the one delivering his people with Moses as leader.
Though I did not see Moses part the sea, I have no reason to doubt an account written down as history, just because it contains supernatural elements.
A person skeptical of thes things may dismiss the accounts because of this, but why should I take that position? I don't dismiss the accounts of Sargon, Nebuchadnezzar, Josephus, etc., simply because I was not there to witness the events, so there is no reason for me to dismiss the accounts of the record of earlier 'historians'. Even archaeologist don't dismiss them because of the magic practiced within it, to their gods.
Why do you think I should not accept the Biblical accounts as literal truths?
Do you think the accounts of Josephus are literally true?
I think for me to be honest in dismissing the account of the parting of the sea by Moses as myth, I would have to dismiss everything else related to God's dealing with Israel under the leadership of Moses, and any other deliverer, as myth. Otherwise, what I would be doing is taking it upon myself to limit God, and deny his intervention, or activity, where ever I see fit to do so. or choose which parts i will accept as history or not.
If there is a scriptural basis for me to take the account as allegory, then certainly, I could see that as 'noble'... for want of a better word.
I don't see that though.
There is no scriptural basis for taking that position. A worldly basis? Yes. Doing so based on worldly views.
The scriptures are clear and specific in saying that this act - the parting of the sea, allowing Israel to cross with their enemies pursuing them, was among one of the great acts of God to have his name declared, that nations would hear, and know that there is no God that performs like this one. Not only nations, but the people he chose to fulfil his covenant with Abraham - a real person.
Exodus 6:1-8 ; Exodus 9:16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth.
(Exodus 13:3) Then Moses said to the people: “Remember this day on which you went out of Egypt, from the house of slavery, because with a mighty hand Jehovah brought you out of here.. . .
(Exodus 14:17) As for me, I am allowing the hearts of the Egyptians to become obstinate, so that they will go in after them; thus I will glorify myself by means of Pharaoh and all his army, his war chariots, and his cavalrymen.
(Joshua 2:9, 10) 9 She said to the men: “I do know that Jehovah will give you the land and that the fear of you has fallen upon us. All the inhabitants of the land are disheartened because of you, 10 for we heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and what you did to the two kings of the Amʹorites, Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction on the other side of the Jordan.
(Isaiah 63:12) The One who made His glorious arm go with the right hand of Moses, The One who split the waters before them To make an everlasting name for himself,
It was God glorifying his name, just as he did through his acts in behalf of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, and Daniel, before the Babylonian rulers.
So it seems evident to me, to minimize these accounts, is only in keeping with the words of Isaiah, as quoted by Jesus, where he said, Quote You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. Unquote - Matthew 15:7, 8
Since, as the scriptures say, they are recorded for a purpose, as I mentioned before - inspired to be written down. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 ; 2 Peter 1:21, and they were related, not as allegory, or myth, but history, by those subsequent to John the Baptist.
What would that tell us about those who come afterward, and claim otherwise?
I don't really understand what you mean by faith in teachings. I do not have faith in teachings. Maybe you mean something other than what I am thinking, but you will have to explain.
Do you mean like when a mother tells her son, "This is hot. Don't touch it. It will hurt you badly." However, because the child doesn't know, they must have faith, or trust that their mother is telling them the truth?
Yes, of course, I have not seen God's promises fulfilled, so I do need faith in them. I have not seen God, so I do need faith in him, but is that not true of all of us?
You have not seen evolution of a four footed wolf-like creature, to a whale, but you have faith that the scientist are stating the truth... and that goes for a truckload of other beliefs.
However, just as you don't need faith to know that if you stab yourself with a pencil, you will bleed, I don't need faith to know that following the Bible teachings do benefit me... greatly.
Now that you are on this subject of fact and faith, you do not know that anything is myth, so it seems you have faith in your belief that what you say is myth, actually is.
So it's not about facts. You don't have those, in this case.
Our faith does not agree in a lot of things, of course. Your faith in the belief that all living things came from one ancestor, is not shared with many people.
Okay, thanks for that.
I'm against the Bahais taking liberty to discredit the Bible for the purpose of promoting their own belief system. I see it as a great dishonor to God.
You disagree of course, but that's understandable.
Calling a miracle myth is de-emphasizing? I would not like to see what you would call blasphemy or outright rejecting God's works.
I recall the Pharisee said that, the works Jesus was doing was not from God, but demons, and Jesus did not take that lightly.
(Matthew 12:27-31) 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Beelzebub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.
Perhaps the Pharisees too, felt they were de-emphasizing Jesus miracles.
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nPeace
Veteran Member
You are saying that Jesus' miracles mean nothing. They are unimportant. He might as well not have done them. is that what you are saying?
This is what I mean by the Bahais discrediting and dishonoring God. You just gave a perfect example of what I mean.
Jesus performed miracles for a reason. did he not?
According to the scriptures, his miracles proved he was of, or from God.
(Luke 7:20-23) 20 When they came to him, the men said: “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect another?’” 21 In that hour he cured many people of sicknesses, serious diseases, and wicked spirits, and he granted many blind people the gift of sight. 22 In reply he said to them: “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind are now seeing, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed, the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, and the poor are being told the good news. 23 Happy is the one who finds no cause for stumbling in me.”
Matthew 13:58 - And he did not perform many powerful works there on account of their lack of faith.
John 15:24 - If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have both seen me and hated me as well as my Father.
John 5:39-47
Does that help in answering your question?
I don't view them with suspicion at all. Suspicion is not the correct word,
2 Corinthians 6:17 ; Revelation 18:2-5
It's not the people, but their system of religion. The people are lovingly urged... Get out!
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Some rich people are miserable, though they have the money to do anything. Some poor people have the perception of being happy, and that is true happiness.
Religious beliefs, by any origin, are the same (proven or not).
Some think that it is possible that life is a virtual world. Some came to that conclusion by looking at a water buffalo getting eaten alive by a lion, screaming in agony. They argued with themselves that the God that they had believed in could not be so cruel as to make a world where such pain and suffering exists. Therefore, it must all be fake, they reasoned. Fake, or not, knowing that there is suffering is painful. Emotional pain is real whether or not physical pain was made.
If someone pointed a gun to your head during a bank robbery, and told you that they were going to blow your head off in a minute, then the gun (loaded with blanks) made a big explosion, you would be emotionally distraught (though nothing real had happened).
But, all of this begs the question: "Is the religion real?" If they events leading up to it are phony, then the facts might be phony, as well. Lets say that it was proven that the bible was written a century after Jesus and disciples died. Then any book that purports that they contributed to the writing of the bible is wrong (unless they did it from beyond the grave by psychic ability). If we can't trust that the information is from God, they we might be following instructions of some human (or worse, some demon).
The devil is well known to use deception, greed, and fear to motivate wars and environment destruction. The devil is also well known to mascarade as God.
To tell the difference between information from God and information from the devil, all you have to do is look at the trail. Is a president on the side of Satan or God? Just look at his deeds. Did that president leave a blood trail of war and torture camps? Did that president cater to the rich with tax breaks while ignoring the plight of homeless people? Did that president oppose universal health care or try to heal the sick as Jesus did?
So, if a religion has a fuzzy history, and the facts are not well known, just look at the deeds of that religion historically to determine if they worked on the side of God or Satan. This doesn't mean that some day they might find redemption (this might be part of God's plan all along). Could it be that God allows Satan to exist merely because some day Satan might change and be good again?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Why would it matter? If it is not a "fact" that God parted the seas, then we should look at the Bible as a book of myth. Which would include the God that is presented in those mythical stories. Did he create the world in 6 days? No. That's a myth. Did he walk in the garden with Adam? No. That's a myth. Did he flood the entire world? No. That's a myth and so on. If God didn't do those things then that God is not real. But what the Baha'i Faith does is make God real, just not the Bible stories about God. Then Baha'is make Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses real, and not only real but "manifestations" of God. Yet, the Bible stories about these people are not "factual".
So making these stories fictional is important to Baha'is, because then there is a way out of taking the Bible literally and still saying it is "The Truth". But making them fiction makes Christians and Jews who take the Bible as "fact" become spiritual idiots for taking the Bible as The Literal Truth. I doubt it is literally true also, but I don't try and use the "allegorical" loophole to try and claim I believe in the Bible.
If it is fictional myth, then I'd rather say and believe that people made up their own Gods and religious laws and made up stories to get people to believe and follow those laws that they are told came from an invisible God. And to beef up the power and authority of that invisible God, they some of the stories have him intervening and doing great things for his people or doing horrible things to the enemies of his people or, sometimes, doing horrible things to his people for disobeying. Like really, God wanted his people to slaughter a bunch of animals and to stone to death people that didn't follow some of the rules? Or were the laws part of the allegorical story and not to be taken literally? Oh, and when God wanted his people to kill all the woman and children in Jericho, was that God telling an allegorical story or did that really happen? But, you're right. What does it really matter. I'm not going to believe the Bible. What's the worse that could happen?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Problem is that all Christians and Jews do not believe these stories are The Literal Truth. In fact, most don't, so they are on the same page as the Baha'is..
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And how'd that spiritual journey go for them? Oh yeah, all but a few died while wandering in the wilderness. Then, the next generation is the one that goes in and kills all the people, including woman and children, in some of the cities they conquered. I still think that thousands of years ago, it makes more sense to me, that if those things didn't really happen, they were just plain old myths and legends. The big lesson... Obey God or he's gonna get you.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
How about the Jews 2000 or 3000 years ago? How about Christians even a few hundred years ago? Today, things are different. Probably Darwin had a big influence on people being able to more openly question the "fact" that the Bible is the Truth. Reformed Jews and liberal Christians are fine with me. My only problem with the Baha'i Faith is that they say the stories are fictional and not to be taken literally, whereas I think the stories were most likely fiction and definitely written to be taken literally.