How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

For some of us our religious beliefs are founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

I selected very important but wanted to put the caveat that it's not the only important thing. I think things which are not factual (in the empirical sense) are still important. For a while I was one of those irreligious who rejected anything that seemed not fact, including 'soft sciences.' I now think that's not only impractical but also made me less inclined to be introspective, since dealing with one's emotions is rarely a 'factual' exercise. I also think things that are not factual, like fictional stories which convey messages and challenge conceptual ideas are also personally and culturally important.

Facts are very important in my faith. The Baha’i faith explicitly emphasises the importance of fact and science as opposed to fiction and myth. It goes as far as labelling some religious beliefs as superstition.

God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible… – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239

Unity of Science & Religion

adrian009 said:

For some of us our religious beliefs and founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

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I'd say they are somewhat important. If my beliefs (em, that word) doesn't align with the rest of reality, it feels like a conflict. I think that's why we value personal experiences. For example, just believing my ancestors exist doesn't do much on its own. Actually experiencing their interaction and presence (literally not just in my head), it aligns with what I know of reality since I don't believe my experiences are fake if they are not scientific. I do find it helpful to describe spirituality in a "scientific" way a bit helpful. For example, my experiences could have been a symptom of grief or so have you. Though, even so, that doesn't mean the experiences are false nor do they mean they are no longer spiritual because they can be partially understood.

So, yeah. Facts are important if it helps align what we know with the "unseen" things we've experienced. It puts a label or definition to what we experience. On the other hand, many religions accept unexplained experiences and the unseen for what it is without need for facts/concrete explanations. I think Western culture, at least in the States, are heavily fact oriented. Take christianity. We've been trying to prove god exists and jesus was god just by finding artifacts of moses and jesus' tomb. Shouldn't these beliefs be valuable despite the absence of concrete evidence?

I wouldn't say facts are hundred percent needed in that regardless how much we think we know of the physic(al) world, there is still an X factor of other experiences that we may feel we need or don't need to explain.

Facts are in the realm of the intellect. Truth comes from a higher realm and manifests as intuition.

I answered "only a little" because, for me, whether Meher Baba did something or other is of only minor importance. Who I believe Meher Baba was and is critically important.

adrian009 said:

Facts are very important in my faith. The Baha’i faith explicitly emphasises the importance of fact and science as opposed to fiction and myth. It goes as far as labelling some religious beliefs as superstition.

God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible… – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239

Unity of Science & Religion

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Does Bahai require facts to explain spiritual experiences from god?

Does there need to be a fact to support spirituality such as belief in god or manifestations?

Are there things Bahai believe that cannot be explained by facts but are true nonetheless?

(In other words, does science need to back up spirituality in order to be relevant and real?)

Unveiled Artist said:

Does Bahai require facts to explain spiritual experiences from god?

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No

Unveiled Artist said:

Does there need to be a fact to support spirituality such as belief in god or manifestations?

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It helps

Unveiled Artist said:

Are there things Bahai believe that cannot be explained by facts but are true nonetheless?

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Baha’i belief certainly allows for a God or Supreme being that at times will transcend the laws of the natural world and perform miracles.

Unveiled Artist said:

(In other words, does science need to back up spirituality in order to be relevant and real?)

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Good question. IMHO it certainly helps.

adrian009 said:

Facts are very important in my faith. The Baha’i faith explicitly emphasises the importance of fact and science as opposed to fiction and myth. It goes as far as labelling some religious beliefs as superstition.

God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible… – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239

Unity of Science & Religion

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That's so opposite to what Paul warned annointed followers and messengers of God about.
1 Timothy 6:20 ; Colossians 2:8

(1 Corinthians 1:18-21) 18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.

How would you know the difference between worldly wisdom and true wisdom?
(1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
(1 Corinthians 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

How would you know what foolish thing god is using that the nations reject?
(1 Corinthians 1:27) God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame. . .

How would you know what is factual, when it is stated by men who claim it to be... and based on what...?
(Romans 1:22) Although claiming they were wise, they became foolish

sun rise said:

Facts are in the realm of the intellect. Truth comes from a higher realm and manifests as intuition.

I answered "only a little" because, for me, whether Meher Baba did something or other is of only minor importance. Who I believe Meher Baba was and is critically important.

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Meher Baba was clearly a real person who taught and walked the earth. Who he was and what he did are critically important I agree, but how important is it that at least some of what he did and taught can be reliably verified?

adrian009 said:

Baha’i belief certainly allows for a God or Supreme being that at times will transcend the laws of the natural world and perform miracles.

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@adrian009 I'm a little confused, forgive me.
How would you know the difference between a myth and God performing a miracle?
Do you believe the parting of the Red Sea to be myth or miracle?

adrian009 said:

For some of us our religious beliefs and founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

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Dear adrian009

I think that much of what we loosely call “facts” are not facts, but conclusions [about facts]. This is because actual facts only acquire meaning once interpreted. Yet, interpretations are not facts.

The fact that 1+1 is 2 and not 3 for example, does not say much unless we conclude something about it. Our conclusion about a fact will be based on context, standpoint/ position, purpose/aim, etc; non of which are facts.

I’d also say that [pure] facts apply to worldliness and in that context, they may at times be of relevance.


Humbly
Hermit

adrian009 said:

No



It helps



Baha’i belief certainly allows for a God or Supreme being that at times will transcend the laws of the natural world and perform miracles.



Good question. IMHO it certainly helps.

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It does help, yeah. I don't see a discrepancy between the two. My opinion is that a spiritual mystery wouldn't supersede the mundane (greater purpose, soul/body, etc) but would be aligned (if not interconnected) with it.

nPeace said:

@adrian009 I'm a little confused, forgive me.
How would you know the difference between a myth and God performing a miracle?
Do you believe the parting of the Red Sea to be myth or miracle?

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The story of the parting of the Red Sea was probably a myth and there is no evidence to support it actually happened. Baha’i belief allows for the possibility that some of the miracles recorded in the Bible actually happened. However what the stories teach us about God, ourselves and our relationship with Him is far more important than whether or not a particular miracle happened.

nPeace said:

That's so opposite to what Paul warned annointed followers and messengers of God about.
1 Timothy 6:20 ; Colossians 2:8

(1 Corinthians 1:18-21) 18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.

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I see no contradiction between what Paul and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá taught.

nPeace said:

How would you know the difference between worldly wisdom and true wisdom?
(1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
(1 Corinthians 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

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Wisdom is a wonderful thing and something that can be acquired in some measure by us all whether we are a believer or not. Paul warns of that which is called wisdom but in reality is anything but.

nPeace said:

How would you know what foolish thing god is using that the nations reject?
(1 Corinthians 1:27) God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame. . .

Click to expand...

nPeace said:

How would you know what is factual, when it is stated by men who claim it to be... and based on what...?
(Romans 1:22) Although claiming they were wise, they became foolish

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Part of wisdom is learning discernment. It is an ongoing journey to be wise each day and apply that wisdom. As a Baha’i knowing and following the Teachings of the Manifestations of God helps as following the Teachings of Christ helps for you as a Christian.

adrian009 said:

The story of the parting of the Red Sea was probably a myth and there is no evidence to support it actually happened. Baha’i belief allows for the possibility that some of the miracles recorded in the Bible actually happened. However what the stories teach us about God, ourselves and our relationship with Him is far more important than whether or not a particular miracle happened.

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Doesn't that allow Bahais to dismiss whatever they want from the Bible... or more importantly, dismiss what the worldly wise consider foolishness?
Also, does that not make the accounts of Jesus' apostles foolishness and myths, since Stephen - a man of holy spirit, according to the Biblical account, gave a detailed account of what he described as a historical account - including the parting of the Red Sea, by the hand of Moses - God's messenger?
Also, Paul recounted the same event as a historical fact.
So would these accounts not be foolishness, when related as history, to worldly wise?
Do Bahais view these accounts as myth?

nPeace said:

Doesn't that allow Bahais to dismiss whatever they want from the Bible... or more importantly, dismiss what the worldly wise consider foolishness?
Also, does that not make the accounts of Jesus' apostles foolishness and myths, since Stephen - a man of holy spirit, according to the Biblical account, gave a detailed account of what he described as a historical account - including the parting of the Red Sea, by the hand of Moses - God's messenger?
Also, Paul recounted the same event as a historical fact.
So would these accounts not be foolishness, when related as history, to worldly wise?
Do Bahais view these accounts as myth?

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Baha’is are free to investigate the truth for themselves and not blindly follow religious teachings because that’s what our ancestors believed or the church teaches.

Paul and Jesus both refer to stories in the Hebrew Bible but that doesn’t make them literally true. There are of course miracles Baha’is do believe in such as the Virgin birth but it is readily accepted there is no proof that miracle happened. ‘Abdul-Baha explains that Christ’s greatness can’t be based on Him not having a father, for Adam having neither mother nor father would be greater than Christ.

I read the topic as 'facts' and made the false assumption that it was facts when in reality it's limited to historical facts. Historical 'facts' IMO, are generally up for dispute, and that discussion doesn't add to my practice of today, now, at the current moment. Therefore I chose that it doesn't reflect my thinking. Daily practice trumps such stuff.

Humans know they invented all scientific thesis that opposed by radiation conditions natural life health and mind conscious spirituality.

Behaviours changed in radiation fall out. And the behaviours not rational nor family supportive in communal living.

Light constant sacrificed gas spirit was in a crossing between holy womb space vacuum and it's cold gas spirit heavens.

Belonged in science to O God the earth planet one history first.

We knew human choice wrong by invention and in life tried to infer spiritual inventive sciences that caused little change to life on earth.

Not accepted due to human greed in life conditions controlled for the super elite.

The fact of group separation for law standards. To argue our human rights. To teach and retrain human mind in spiritual pursuits as medical awareness.

Healers

Most spiritual teachers would infer to their spiritual healing advice reasoning. As logic and owning highest intelligence.

About earth planet heavenly healing of regained wandering star gases. Asteroid effect. And UFO attacks. Science pyramid technology caused.
Versus control coercion greed and human corruption.

Natural for family groups to gather to argue for human rights to a natural spiritual life.

adrian009 said:

Baha’is are free to investigate the truth for themselves and not blindly follow religious teachings because that’s what our ancestors believed or the church teaches.

Paul and Jesus both refer to stories in the Hebrew Bible but that doesn’t make them literally true.

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Because Bahais don't believe them that doesn't make them false either.

adrian009 said:

There are of course miracles Baha’is do believe in such as the Virgin birth but it is readily accepted there is no proof that miracle happened. ‘Abdul-Baha explains that Christ’s greatness can’t be based on Him not having a father, for Adam having neither mother nor father would be greater than Christ.

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Exactly. As I said, Bahais can pick and choose what they will dismiss as myth, and accept as miracles.

So my question was, how do you determine what is a miracle from God, as opposed to myth?

adrian009 said:

Meher Baba was clearly a real person who taught and walked the earth. Who he was and what he did are critically important I agree, but how important is it that at least some of what he did and taught can be reliably verified?

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His words and actions were a decent part of my process making up my mind about him. In this era of countless fakes, gifters and those who think they're something they are not, every facility we have for discernment should be used.

So my earlier answer about what I feel now should have the addition in this post noting that initial process.

But a good chunk of my earlier post was meeting those who had been closest to him and getting a sense of what kind of people they were and what he was like. One of the things that made a profound impression on my was one of his closest companions, Eruch, feeling and being will to say about Meher Baba: And this whole time, my mind would think, "What is it with this old man?..."