Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

metis · Mar 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?

At the literal level, we clearly are not born with "sin" since that word means "to miss the mark". Nor does the concept of "original sin" make any sense if taken literally as we don't stone a baby since his grandfather committed adultery.

What it may mean is that we will eventually sin because we'll place ourselves ahead of God at times.

ElishaElijah · Mar 30, 2021

cOLTER said:
No, you did the dance all around the obvious central point that Jesus spent 3+ preaching his gospel before he was apprehended and killed. But you claim killing Jesus was the Gospel!

Jesus had already forgiven without the shedding of blood. So yes, its you who would have rejected Jesus on the same grounds that you argue now.

But Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, Teacher,” he said.41“Two men were debtors to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,e and the other fifty. 42When they were unable to repay him, he forgave both of them. Which one, then, will love him more?”43“I suppose the one who was forgiven more,” Simon replied.

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.44And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”49

But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

That's one reason the priest class hated Jesus so much, his simple Gospel of salvation by faith in the Father bypassed their lucrative sacrificial system!

John’s testimony.
“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6-14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Colt · Mar 30, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, you seem to reject the whole New Testament, the Old Testament that foretells of Jesus being the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world. John the Baptist wrong as well?

That’s not accurate, I’ve quoted Jesus in the New Testament. You ignore those quotes.

You can read the Bible to people and “faith” doesn’t come to those who hear you. Jesus was the Word made flesh, he spoke directly to people but faith didn’t come to them either.

Your claim that faith comes simply by “hearing” has been debunked.

Colt · Mar 30, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
John’s testimony.
“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6-14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

Secondary sources written by those who believe in the atonement of Christ conflict with Christ himself.

natasha levchenko · Mar 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?

Although Adam was created to live forever, his sin brought upon him the penalty of death. Through Adam, “sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”—Romans 5:12.

In contrast, Jesus’ death not only removed the blemish of sin but also canceled the death sentence for all who exercise faith in him. The Bible sums up matters this way: “Just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”—Romans 5:21.

Of course, humans today still have a limited life span. However, God promises that he will grant righteous humans everlasting life and resurrect the dead so that they too can benefit from Jesus’ sacrificial death.—Psalm 37:29; 1 Corinthians 15:22

Trailblazer · Mar 30, 2021

SA Huguenot said:
to which you have a right to believe.
First of all, believing it not to be true, does not make it false.
The fact is that Adam and Eve is in an ancient story being recorded with the creation of the Solar system, which was postulated in 1755 by Kant as the nebular theory, proven to be correct in 1925 by Hubble, makes it highly viable that Genesis is actually an incredibly valueable document of authenticity.

To which you have a right to believe but believing it is true does not make it true.
The Genesis creation stories to not comport with scientific facts that we know to be true today.
There is no proof that an Adam and Eve ever existed. That's why it is a story, not a historical fact.

Trailblazer · Mar 30, 2021

natasha levchenko said:
Although Adam was created to live forever, his sin brought upon him the penalty of death.

natasha levchenko said:
In contrast, Jesus’ death not only removed the blemish of sin but also canceled the death sentence for all who exercise faith in him.

Not in the Bible.

natasha levchenko · Mar 30, 2021

We Never Know said:
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/good-news-from-god/who-is-jesus-christ/video-why-did-jesus-die/

Trailblazer · Mar 30, 2021

natasha levchenko said:
Of course, humans today still have a limited life span. However, God promises that he will grant righteous humans everlasting life and resurrect the dead so that they too can benefit from Jesus’ sacrificial death.—Psalm 37:29; 1 Corinthians 15:22

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

The verse says nothing about bodies rising from graves and living forever on earth. The verse means that the living generations of the righteous will live forever on earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

The verse says nothing about being made alive in a physical body; it is referring to spiritual life, not physical life. It is referring to eternal life of the soul that is near to God through Christ.

ElishaElijah · Mar 30, 2021

cOLTER said:
That’s not accurate, I’ve quoted Jesus in the New Testament. You ignore those quotes.

You can read the Bible to people and “faith” doesn’t come to those who hear you. Jesus was the Word made flesh, he spoke directly to people but faith didn’t come to them either.

Your claim that faith comes simply by “hearing” has been debunked.

I haven’t ignored Jesus quotes but you’ve ignored the Holy Spirit.
I said this:
“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Trailblazer · Mar 30, 2021

SA Huguenot said:
If you choose to ignore the fact that Genesis said that God created Man as an immortal being, and through sin Man became a mortal being who suffers for this life we have now, it is up to you.

I cannot ignore something that is not even in the Bible!

Genesis absolutely does not say that God created Man as an immortal being! Christians says that because they completely misconstrued what the Bible says and means. Then the Church created false doctrines and people believes them without question generation after generation.

How could people have continued to be born on earth if people had never died? How could the earth sustain that much population? Do you ever bother to think, or do you just believe what you were taught?

God programmed humans to die physically regardless of sin. Sin did not cause physical death.
Sin caused spiritual death and Jesus freed us from spiritual death by His cross sacrifice and His teachings.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

Colt · Mar 30, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
I haven’t ignored Jesus quotes but you’ve ignored the Holy Spirit.
I said this:
“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Plenty hear the Bible and preachers and believers but don’t have “faith”. Do what ever you want with that fact.

ElishaElijah · Mar 30, 2021

cOLTER said:
Plenty hear the Bible and preachers and believers but don’t have “faith”. Do what ever you want with that fact.

If you don’t hear God speak you can’t have faith in God. God speaks to a person, when you hear Him speak you either believe what He said or not. That’s why the Scriptures say Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Colt · Mar 30, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
If you don’t hear God speak you can’t have faith in God. God speaks to a person, when you hear Him speak you either believe what He said or not. That’s why the Scriptures say Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness.

Without faith one can’t hear God speak.

This why I speak to the crowds in parables: although they see, they don’t really see; and although they hear, they don’t really hear or understand. 14 What Isaiah prophesied has become completely true for them:

You will hear, to be sure, but never understand;
and you will certainly see but never recognize what you are seeing.
15 For this people’s senses have become calloused,
and they’ve become hard of hearing,
and they’ve shut their eyes
so that they won’t see with their eyes
or hear with their ears
or understand with their minds,
and change their hearts and lives that I may heal them.

ElishaElijah · Mar 30, 2021

cOLTER said:
Without faith one can’t hear God speak.

This why I speak to the crowds in parables: although they see, they don’t really see; and although they hear, they don’t really hear or understand. 14 What Isaiah prophesied has become completely true for them:

You will hear, to be sure, but never understand;
and you will certainly see but never recognize what you are seeing.
15 For this people’s senses have become calloused,
and they’ve become hard of hearing,
and they’ve shut their eyes
so that they won’t see with their eyes
or hear with their ears
or understand with their minds,
and change their hearts and lives that I may heal them.

I didn’t say you can’t hear God if you don’t have faith. I said you can’t have faith if you don’t hear God. When God speaks to you that’s when you either believe what He said (faith/trust) or you don’t believe Him (faithless/unbelief).

Trailblazer · Mar 30, 2021

SA Huguenot said:
I have never said that our physical bodies were created to be immortal.
I said that Adam and Eve was created immortal, and their bodies could not age, it was covered with Light, and they lost this light and immortality the day they sinned.
I also said that Jesus said no flesh and Blood will enter heaven, and on a later stage he told the apostles after rising from the dead, that He does not have any blood in his body, but flesh and bone.
just thereafter, this body of flesh and bone was taken into heaven, and was covered with a bright light.
This was the same type of body Adam and Eve had when they still did not sin.
And just as Paul said, these bodies we will get will be just as the one Jesus had.
Jesus was the second Adam, the physical descendent of Adam, through the seed of the Woman, Eve and Mary.

"just thereafter, this body of flesh and bone was taken into heaven, and was covered with a bright light.
This was the same type of body Adam and Eve had when they still did not sin.
And just as Paul said, these bodies we will get will be just as the one Jesus had."

None of this is in the Bible so I can rightly disregard it.
These are Christian beliefs that were created by misinterpreting the Bible.
I know I am not going to convince you of that, I am just posting this for the record.

Paul NEVER SAID these bodies we will get will be just as the one Jesus had.

I will leave you with what Paul really said and what he meant by it.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised as spiritual bodies. What that means is that our soul will leave our body and God will give us a spiritual body. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

Colt · Mar 30, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
I didn’t say you can’t hear God if you don’t have faith. I said you can’t have faith if you don’t hear God. When God speaks to you that’s when you either believe what He said (faith/trust) or you don’t believe Him (faithless/unbelief).

The day I heard God I guess is the day I received faith.

Trailblazer · Mar 30, 2021

SA Huguenot said:
I read this quote, and on the surface sounded verry intelligent, untill I read it again.
Whoever wrote this is seriously ignorant of what the Bible says, and is making up some story to suit his view and bias.

let me explain.
God made Adam and Eve to be immortal people in His immage.
God used the soil of the Earth, natural elements from the created universe, to create the human.
This was what God wanted, a CREATED HUMAN MADE FROM ELLEMENTS HE CREATED!

this human He made was perfect, and had a body in His immage, covered with light and immortal.
period.

What this person you refer to is saying, No, this physical form of body we have will not be the one going to heaven, (so far I agree), but it will be made up of elements in the heavenly realm.

What this guy says is that God will make some other body than what Adam and Eve had, and it will not contain the elements we know off.
Realy, so when God created the Human to be His friend to love Him, and vice versa, he did not make the human good enough?
does this guy even know that God walked and talked with Adam every day?

I think Abdulbaia must go and read the Bible before making himself out as some Bible student.
Adam was not only God's friend, but God's son!

Why will God have to continue to tweak His created being to become better.
Sorry for Abdul, but when God created Adam and Eve, he made them the ultimate model not to be improved.

Again, none of what you are saying is in the Bible, it is what YOU believe that Bible says and means.
Can you even understand what I am saying? The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways to mean many different things and that is WHY we see Christians disagreeing with each other. But Christians are all so sure they know what the Bible means so they dig in their heels and won't listen to anyone else, not even another Christian.

The Bible does not say, but rather YOU say:

-- God made Adam and Eve to be immortal people in His image.
-- God used the soil of the Earth, natural elements from the created universe, to create the human.
-- This was what God wanted, a CREATED HUMAN MADE FROM ELEMENTS HE CREATED!
that God made Adam and Eve to be immortal people in His image.
-- this human He made was perfect, and had a body in His image, covered with light and immortal.
period.
-- when God created Adam and Eve, he made them the ultimate model not to be improved.

Regarding the form (body) we will have in the spiritual world (heaven), the Baha'i Writings state:

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

What the Bahai Writings say is exactly what Paul says in the Bible.

Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised as spiritual bodies. What that means is that our soul will leave our body and God will give us a spiritual body. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

Lastly, Paul says that the glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
That means that God will make some other body other than what Adam and Eve had, and it will not contain the elements we know off.

natasha levchenko · Mar 31, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Not in the Bible.

What do you mean?please explain

rational experiences · Mar 31, 2021

We Never Know said:
(Romans 5:12). Every one of us was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18). We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.

O God a planet.

God O was the original sin. Once burning in hell as a theme angel of Satan who was sinning self consuming.

Then Satan stopped sin became sealed and a God angel.

How the science of God in creation was taught as a story.

Obvious you think it real. What humans theme.

No man is God was said for humans who believe Adam was first man.
First man was not a father.

Had not had sex yet to wait for a baby to grow to be born to be a father.

First man. A human who owned no name. Naming was introduced for civilization. I know native history said titles as number one son for everyone was a title. Same for number two etc. To denote hierarchy in a family.

The science theme thought by a man scientist said a dam into damn as nation.

Science thesis of a man thinking science yet not being science. Just identifies a man human thinking theories about what he wasn't. A dam into damn into damnation conjured damned.

Sin and its origins.

We never owned science thesis for a self consuming action to a God product dust. God as Satan did. As a man science thesis about dust.

God however was not Satan was sealed. So you had to man theory how to unseal God stone by a satanic act.

The true theme.

How life was harmed. Man invented his own sin a science reaction.

The story when even balances changed to eve by his mother space womb maths thesis.

The cross is four. A cross is balanced.

Maths said minus as 2 X 2.

2 X 2 is 4. Your thesis cross in science to take God sealed by one product dust and self consume a nuclear reaction.

By man choice.

God O seal is one.

One did not however quote seal as sealed mass is multi stone varied so they said God sealed one mass but zero O was the true God sealed.

So O earth as God was stated to just be zero as a balance. No argument allowed. As you cannot take from a zero value the reasoning. No number present.

Why Hebrew AIN said zero as God.

Humans were without sin as soon as you attacked us in science the change was enacted.

Can't do the same attack twice the teaching. Can't copy natural history about when man the natural liar first invented the first nuclear reaction.

Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

aged ecumenical anthropologist

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