Do not hide the woman in Islam, they were the first believers.

Vee said:

I'm not that familiar with the writings of the Qur'an and the Ahadith, but based on the behavior of the men, I would say they don't care much for what those books say or don't say. Most women in Islam are severely oppressed by their fathers, brothers and husbands. Living in a country with a fair amount of Muslims, what I learn from them is that when you are born into a muslim family, you better be lucky enough to be a man.
From being forced to cover their heads against their will, to having their access to education limited, being pressured into early marriages and sometimes even abuse, that's the feedback I've received from the muslim women I've been in touch with.

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I wonder how much of this experience is regional.

We have a lot of Muslims locally, and I don't get the impression at all that female oppression is a problem here. The president of our local mosque is a woman. Many are highly educated and active participants in public life, independent of their husband or family.

Head coverings seem to vary some with region. We have a lot of Muslims of Bosnian descent, and those women do not typically cover their heads. Women who have immigrated from other regions or converted typically do.

ChristineM said:

Surah An-Nisa 4:34
Not sure an edict to strike women is a positive...

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It's a screwed up religion. That's putting it politely.

Altfish said:

How many female Imams are there?

How many men have to wear the veil/hijab/niqab/etc ?

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Oh. Now that would be something new!

JustGeorge said:

I wonder how much of this experience is regional.

We have a lot of Muslims locally, and I don't get the impression at all that female oppression is a problem here. The president of our local mosque is a woman. Many are highly educated and active participants in public life, independent of their husband or family.

Head coverings seem to vary some with region. We have a lot of Muslims of Bosnian descent, and those women do not typically cover their heads. Women who have immigrated from other regions or converted typically do.

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Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking? I'm in Columbus, OH and most of the Muslims here are either Somali or Arab immigrants or black American converts. The Somalis are the more concerning of the 3 here due to their terrorist ties and treatment of women (the treatment of women in Somali culture makes the Arabs look quint).

Saint Frankenstein said:

Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking? I'm in Columbus, OH and most of the Muslims here are either Somali or Arab immigrants or black American converts. The Somalis are the more concerning of the 3 here due to their terrorist ties and treatment of women (the treatment of women in Somali culture makes the Arabs look quint).

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I'm in Waterloo, Iowa. Bosnians began moving here back in the late 90s due to war; they were actually refugees fleeing oppression from the Orthodox Serbs. That was our first experience as a community with Islam. Bosnia is know for being rather liberal in regards to Islam, and the cultural differences regarding religion aren't real apparent.

We've had other Muslim immigrants move in over the years, and most tend to be highly educated and peaceful community members. I have noticed newer immigrants and the Bosnians don't always mingle; there is a mosque in which only Bosnians attend, and then there is another mosque open to all. Some Bosnians attend this one, too.

Shakeel said:

The status of women in Islam is good.

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I'd like to believe that, but what you say next casts doubt upon that.

Shakeel said:

Yes, women are respect and women need to obey their husbands.

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What, are they adolescent children who need to obey their parent's rule? Husbands treat their wives like they would their teenage children, expecting obedience to them?

In the West, we as our best ideal, seek for an atmosphere of cooperation in our relationships based upon mutual respect as adult human beings, not some top-down hierarchy, where women and children fall under the same obedience umbrella to husband as parent to all, including his wife.

Now, you may call that better, but I would argue that is only "better" from the male's perspective. Women who are not so inclined to be subservient to male ownership of themselves, probably consider it a form of slavery.

Just a question; is your OP supposed to excuse extremism? Regardless of the sex, religion, nationality...etc... NO EXCUSES, for the misbehavior of another life.

ChristineM said:

Surah An-Nisa 4:34
Not sure an edict to strike women is a positive...

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Are you sure it says "strike" as in "hit"?

ecco said:

You have made it clear that in Islam, women are subordinate to men.

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In a sense, yes, so what? Everyone is subordinate to someone. Work, school, police, military, parents.

ecco said:

Even many Christians believe that a woman should be subordinate to a man.

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The Bible makes that so clear it isn't possible for an honest Christian to not believe so.

Quran verse 4:19


O believers! It is not permissible for you to inherit women against their will or mistreat them to make them return some of the dowry ˹as a ransom for divorce˺—unless they are found guilty of adultery. Treat them fairly. If you happen to dislike them, you may hate something which Allah turns into a great blessing.

ecco said:

Wahhabism - Wikipedia.​

Wahhabism (Arabic: الوهابية‎, al-Wahhābiyah) is a religious movement and doctrine attributed to Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. It has been variously described as "ultraconservative", "orthodox", "austere", "puritan(ical)"; and as an Islamic "reform movement" to restore "pure monotheistic worship" by devotees.​

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Despite what Wikipedia says, there is no wahabbism and the rules you earlier mentioned; veiling and gender segregation, are from the Qur'an and the Sunnah and have nothing to do with Muhammad ibn Abd Al-Wahabb, except that he, among many, believed in those rules, as any knowledgeable Muslim does.

Feel free to show where Muhammad ibn Abd Al-Wahabb said women cannot drive when cars were barely invented when he lived.

Kooky said:

My post was in response to someone who insisted that proper Muslim women were supposed to obey men and cover themselves, so I would argue that it very much relates to Islam - if not in its theology in the strict sense, then at the very least as a lived set of cultural practices.

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I know, it was my post. But you merely stated how you, as a disbeliever, personally think women should be. That doesn't have anything to do with Islam.

Windwalker said:

In the West, we as our best ideal, seek for an atmosphere of cooperation in our relationship

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Obedience does not have to exclude co-operation. You overdramatize things. You just referred to teenage children having to obey their parents. Would you say there can be no cooperation between a parent and their teenage child? Would that be an impossible equation? Are children slaves to their parents?

Shakeel said:

I know, it was my post. But you merely stated how you, as a disbeliever, personally think women should be. That doesn't have anything to do with Islam.

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Islam doesn't exist in a bubble separately from disbelievers or heretics. The people who don't follow Islam have a right to live inside and next to Islamic society and not abide by its strictures - and in fact, everyone has the right to choose whether to follow its strictures, and to what extent.

Conscious thoughts said:

Despite misconceptions, the status of women in Islam is that of a beloved equal. In the midst of a deeply sexist historical context, the Prophet (saw) preached boldly on the importance of women; celebrating their unique contributions to family and society, condemning the ill-treatment of women and campaigning for their rights.

With all the confusion between history, culture and religion, it’s important to ask ourselves the question; what do the Qur’an and the Ahadith actually teach us about the status of women in Islam?

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The Prophet (saw) said about Khadija :

"She believed in me when all others disbelieved; she held me truthful when others called me a liar; she sheltered me when others abandoned me; she comforted me when others shunned me; and Allah (swt) granted me children by her while depriving me of children by other women.”

Khadija is an exemple for muslim women, she used to be a boss, she hired the Prophet to work for her, SHE proposed him to marry, she was older than him. A strong, independant woman.

ecco said:

Uh-huh...

But why were women not allowed to drive? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia follows a particularly strict brand of Islamic law known as 'Wahhabism'. It says that men and women should be kept separate and what women should wear veils to cover themselves.
​

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They don't let women drive but bring Nikki Minaj for a concert !

stvdv said:

Good point, Allah gave a much needed update; the Arab world sounded like HELL + real life demons in it, how you picture it here

I really hope that these demonic Arabs instantly lost their demonic nature, otherwise I would not be surprised that some demonic influences made their way into the Koran even, or else into the Ahadith.

Usually people take babysteps; evolution goes slow. I don't think Arabs changed overnight. I expect another update was needed after Koran

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Stereotypes .....

What are you saying here ? That arabs are bad people ?
You think during the middle ages it was a heaven to live elsewhere ? The endless wars ...
You remember right how people used to be tortured in Europe ? I'm sure you've hearded of museums of torture ....

Shakeel said:

I know, it was my post. But you merely stated how you, as a disbeliever, personally think women should be. That doesn't have anything to do with Islam.

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I will also note that this is not a "Muslim only" thread, and so at least in theory nonbelievers are supposed to be welcome to add their opinions here.

Kooky said:

I will also note that this is not a "Muslim only" thread, and so at least in theory nonbelievers are supposed to be welcome to add their opinions here.

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They are, but your comment still doesn't relate to Islam. I, myself, am not interested in your personal views. Someone else could be.

Kooky said:

Islam doesn't exist in a bubble separately from disbelievers or heretics. The people who don't follow Islam have a right to live inside and next to Islamic society and not abide by its strictures - and in fact, everyone has the right to choose whether to follow its strictures, and to what extent.

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If you live in a country governed by Islamic law, you have to abide by it or you may be punished according to it. A Muslim must follow all of Islam and, again, a non-Muslim living in a country governed by sharia also has to abide by sharia.

sun rise said:

First, if we consider the historical context when the Quran was written. Wikipedia points out:
Arabs used to bury their female daughters alive in sand. After revelation to Muhammad, burial of female daughters was stopped.[3]

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stvdv said:

Good point, Allah gave a much needed update; the Arab world sounded like HELL + real life demons in it, how you picture it here

I really hope that these demonic Arabs instantly lost their demonic nature, otherwise I would not be surprised that some demonic influences made their way into the Koran even, or else into the Ahadith.

Usually people take babysteps; evolution goes slow. I don't think Arabs changed overnight. I expect another update was needed after Koran

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Pastek said:

Stereotypes .....

What are you saying here ? That arabs are bad people ?
You think during the middle ages it was a heaven to live elsewhere ? The endless wars ...
You remember right how people used to be tortured in Europe ? I'm sure you've hearded of museums of torture ....

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You misread what I wrote.

I replied to the first quote above, in which was said that the Arabs around the time Muhammad came to earth "bury their daughters alive in sand"

I phrased it very gently, saying "IF this is true THEN it sounds the Arab World was Hell with real life demons in it (those bury daughters alive)"
IF you think that is not true THEN tell me. I just gave my opinion about this situation pictured by the member I replied to

I don't say the Arabs ARE bad people. My Master was always clear on this "never say someone is bad, all are children of God, telling that someone is bad is a lie, and you indirectly say that God is bad; you can say that their actions sound bad, that is what I exactly did". Just my opinion. I guess you agree with this, right?

My main point though, was, that IF the people in the Middle Ages were that bad behaving (burying daughters alive in the sand) THEN I would not be surprised that the Scriptures still had quite some demonic influence in them, because I know for a fact that people do not change overnight.

I replied to a post about the Arab world
But, as you ask me now, I will tell you that I think that around the time that Jesus was on earth, it might have been a little bit worse than in the Middle Ages, because I assume that evolution is going slowly better, so the longer ago, the worse the situation was

And to be clear, IF my above idea is correct THEN I expect that the Bible has more violence than the Koran, because it was 700 years earlier (less evolved)

Shakeel said:

Obedience does not have to exclude co-operation.

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If you designate one of the two parties as a subordinate to the other, whom they are responsible to God to obey as the authority in the home, that tends to make the notion of mutuality and cooperation a rather moot point.

Shakeel said:

You overdramatize things.

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As do you in maliging male/female relationships in the West.

Shakeel said:

You just referred to teenage children having to obey their parents. Would you say there can be no cooperation between a parent and their teenage child?

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To some extent of course. Good leadership skills in a household, or in business settings as well, seeks to get the 'buy in' of all parties involved. It makes operations run more smoothly. But children prior to a certain age, are simply told to obey, and their 'buy in' really isn't sought after, as they are not mature enough yet. This is kind of common sense.

But a woman is not a child. A woman is an adult. They are equally as capable as a man in decision making processes. In fact, in many cases, they have superior leadership skills to their husbands. Sometimes its the other way around. It really depends upon each individual.

But to make it a unilateral pronouncement that females are subordinate to males in the household, is irrational. The husband could be a complete idiot, for one reason alone. But further than that, to default a female to a lesser position, simply because of the sex organs being on the inside instead of hanging outside of their bodies, demens and degrades women as inferior, less than, and subject to higher male authorities in their home. It places them on par with teenage children.

Shakeel said:

Would that be an impossible equation? Are children slaves to their parents?

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Of course not, they are children. But once they are adults, and are not allowed to choose for themselves in all matters, then that would be slavery. An adult woman does not need permission from her parents to make choices, or to refuse to listen to them if she disagrees with them. Adults that have that freedom removed from them, are not free. They are slaves.

stvdv said:

My main point though, was, that IF the people in the Middle Ages were that bad behaving (burying daughters alive in the sand) THEN I would not be surprised that the Scriptures still had quite some demonic influence in them, because I know for a fact that people do not change overnight.

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But there's no "IF" as they actually did many wrong things and the Quran was pointing that.
That's why i don't understand the second part of you sentence. They were like that, some of them were bad, had bad traditions.
Until recently we have seen some indians killing little girls, you know the situation they are now into. Is that because of a religion ? Of course no.

stvdv said:

And to be clear, IF my above idea is correct THEN I expect that the Bible has more violence than the Koran, because it was 700 years earlier (less evolved)

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What exactly is your idea ?
And can we know what's your faith ?

Saint Frankenstein said:

No offense, but most Sunni and Shia would likely see you as a heretic.

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Isn't that equally true about how many Christians see Christians belonging to different sects? For example, don't Southern Baptists see Jehovah's Witnesses as heretic? Ditto Catholics/Protestants; Protestants/Catholics; Mormons/Amish; et al.