Religious Atheists?

Brian2 · Mar 28, 2021

nPeace said:
I quoted the scriptures for you, but what did you have to say about them? ... Nothing.
Those are Jesus' commandments. Not mine, nor the men who publish the Watchtower.
When Jesus was on earth, he said the fields are white for harvesting, and there was a need for more workers in the field. Beg the master for more workers. John 4:35

So ask for more workers and if the master sends you then go. If the master tells you to do another job then do that.

Acts 2:46 With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

It is the Lord who adds to the number by His Spirit. Preaching is needed because people cannot believe if they have not heard. Breaking bread from door to door sounds like they celebrated the last supper meal quite regularly, not just every year, but that is another topic.

nPeace said:
18

nPeace said:
 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
Acts 20:20

That is the commandment to the Church and the Watchtower has changed it to apply to all JWs and to apply in a certain way. And what happens if a JW refuses to do the preaching work set out by the Watchtower for all to do?

nPeace said:
. . .I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.
Acts 5:42

.And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
2 Timothy 4:2

I do not see anything about house to house in 2 Timothy. The house to house quote in Acts 5 is an interpretation of the Watchtower, that it means go from door to door to spread the gospel. It may not mean that and also the Watchtower has made that interpretation into a command and all JWs need to obey the Watchtower.

nPeace said:

Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times

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nPeace said:
; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching.

No Brian. It is not men we are following. It is the faithful and true witness of God.
I am just being a follower of that one, and the example of the cloud of witnesses.
(Revelation 12:11) . . .And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.
(Revelation 12:17) . . .So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.

I am not saying that Christians should not preach the gospel. Why do you suggest that I have.

nPeace said:
It's of course your choice to not follow those examples, in being obedient to the Christ.
Did you know, we are commanded to obey Christ's annointed followers, and the appointed men.
(Hebrews 13:17) . . .Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive,. . .
You didn't know that?
Take note that everything I am showing you here is scripture. I have not opened a single Watchtower, to quote anything, so please tell me what words of men you think I am following.
That's the reason this is so lengthy.

Heb 13:17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

That does not mean to be obedient in everything they tell you, especially if they are abusing their power and demanding you do what is not what the Lord wants you to do specifically,,,,,,,,,,,,or if they are making up commands that you must obey to be loyal to God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but really it is just to be loyal to them.

nPeace said:
Also, saying you are not judging me, and then saying that I am doing what men say to do, because they have interfered with my conscience to make me think that I are doing wrong if I do not go from door to door, is indeed a contradiction.
You have judged me. Have you not? Yes you have.

I am not saying that the door to door stuff is wrong or that you should stop. In fact I recommended that you keep doing it if you think it is wrong to stop.
It is the WT that interprets the Bible for you and makes commands where there are no commands in the Bible. That is what I want you to see.

nPeace said:
Are you by any chance referring to Judas, as a weed?
Putting one's ideas on the text, would only result in twisting the truth of what Jesus said.
Jesus gave a series of illustrations in Matthew 13. Evidently, all of them related to after his death, and related to the kingdom, with regard to his anointed ones - that would be after the Christian congregation was formed in 33 CE.

No I was not referring to Judas. Maybe the Legalistic Jewish Christians who wanted to make circumcision and keeping the law compulsory. That would sort of fit with the WT who bring in other man made commands and make them compulsory for someone who wants to remain a JW.

In a way, we all do our own thing, because indeed I have made the doing of God's will "my own thing". In that, I have a burning desire to share the truth with my neighbor, even though most are apathetic. So I really do delight in the work Christ gave his followers to do.

nPeace said:
Yes. Wisdom is the prime thing. Acquire wisdom, acquire understanding (Proverbs 4:5)... and yes. I do listen to the wise servant (Matthew 24:45). After all they are entrusted with the responsibility to provide food at the proper time,

One minute you deny that the Governing Body is the faithful and wise servant and the next you admit it.
They have given their wise council that JWs of years gone by should not go to college and get an education because the time is short and the work of the Kingdom is more urgent. Many JWs missed out on an education because of that. And yes the work of the Kingdom is important but the context of the wise council was when the Lord was expected in a particular year. That council was not given at the proper time and was not proper food.

nPeace said:
..........and have kept loyal servants of the true God free from the Babylonish teaching, and idolatry in all the false religions making up Babylon the great. How can one have a relationship with God, when they teach God dishonoring teachings - like Hellfire, Trinity, Immortal soul, etc?

That relationship is between them and God.
Some of the teachings you must be referring to are teachings condemned by the WT which has foisted that judgement about those things onto their members and condemned people who are acting in good conscience and innocently.
You cannot have a birthday, you cannot celebrate Christmas, you cannot wear a cross, you cannot etc etc.
If you approve or disapprove of this sort of thing then keep it between you and God and don't condemn others for what they approve. That sounds Biblical to me.
But no, all this stuff is used to demonise Christendom.

Brian2 · Mar 28, 2021

nPeace said:
Anyone who does not claim to be the sole channel to humanity, must know why they don't.
I would not claim to be something I am not. However, if I know I am why would I refuse to declare that I am, unless in this case I don't really believe the Bible, or anything said in it, and maybe I lack faith in God?

Where does the Bible speak of one group of men being the sole channel of truth for humanity? It is only the WT that declare that they are and show that they have taught errors from the beginning.

nPeace said:

Jesus... of himself

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nPeace said:
, he said, "No one comes to the father, except through me."
What a proud arrogant man to say such a ridiculous thing.. How dare he be so proud.
Really Brian? Think about it. (John 8:42-47)

Jesus proved who He was, and the WT has shown what they are.

nPeace said:
What did God say of his son - the foremost minister, and evangelizer - the pioneer of all pioneers that would follow him?
(Matthew 17:5) . . .“This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.”

That's the point isn't it. The WT claims the same authority as Jesus when their mistakes show they are not being led by God's Spirit.

nPeace said:

John... of the apostles

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nPeace said:
, he said, "We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. . . ." (1 John 4:6)
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Who does John think he is, to make such an arrogant claim. Isn't he a man like us, who was once a fisherman... probably, a cuss bird. The audacity of these men uh.

John knew Jesus and what He taught and was led by the Spirit. No arrogance there. Paul agreed with John, no arrogance there. We just interpret the scriptures they wrote.

nPeace said:
Who really is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master (jesus Christ) appointed. Matthew 24:45
God's spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. Romans 8:16
They know this. There is no reason to hide it. There is only one sole channel - the faithful and discrete slave. It's not 1000 denominational "Christians".
People either accept it, or they don't, just as they either accepted Jesus, or they didn't when he claimed to be the son of God, and the light of the world.

I don't have to accept a certain denomination or group of men in order to accept Jesus.
And really that is what the WT is, a group of men like any other. A group that has gone so far that it claims to be the only group worth listening to. A group of men that says "without us and our guidance you are lost". A group that warns about studying the Bible without them and what they say it means.
Christians are joined as the Body of Christ even though our minor teachings vary. The oneness of the Body goes deeper than some variations in doctrine.
You have been disqualified from being a Christian by a group of men who have interpreted you out of the New Covenant but who can point to not one verse that agrees with that teaching.
It's a bit like the Mormons who claim a warming in the bosom or something. The anointed know they are anointed because of something like that. The rest are less prone to that sort of fantasy and stand back and say "I must be one of the others".
But as I say, not one scripture. If anything the scriptures point in the opposite direction, with direct statements to that effect.
What is the reply of the WT?
It is "ah don't worry about those scriptures, they were written only for the anointed, not for you lot."

nPeace said:
You said you heard that 'dedication to the Governing body is even part of the Baptism ceremony.'
What more is there to say, after a statement like that. You just outrightly admitted to listening to hearsay, and swallowing it.
Just as I was saying earlier.

If you know differently and are correcting me on that, I accept the correction.
From the following site I get the following quote and other things. Is the quote correct?
When we are baptised we get baptised into Christ, not into a man made organisation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,don't you agree.
Historical changes to the Watchtower Baptism Arrangement and Questions
Jesus commanded to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Over time, Watchtower has changed the question asked prior to immersion, replacing "holy spirit" with "spirit-directed organization," and then removing reference to the "holy spirit" altogether.

Katzpur · Mar 28, 2021

Brian2 said:
's a bit like the Mormons who claim a warming in the bosom or something. The anointed know they are anointed because of something like that.

BS, Brian. Once again. Luke 24:30-32 describes this phenomenon: "And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Luke does not say this feeling means one is "anointed" or special in any way, and Mormons DO NOT CLAIM THAT. Anyone can have that feeling after a very spiritual experience -- a "burning in the bosom." Why don't you just leave the subject of what Mormons believe to somebody who knows what they're talking about?

nPeace · Mar 28, 2021

Brian2 said:
So ask for more workers and if the master sends you then go. If the master tells you to do another job then do that.

What does the master tell you Brian, and where do you incline your ear to hear?

Brian2 said:
Acts 2:46 With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

By quoting that, does that mean you agree the congregation was a united brotherhood?
Yes. They truly were. They came together as a united spiritual family, and you know what else they did? They went about spreading the message to make more disciples, as the master instructed them.
Read on...
Acts 4
2 . . .the apostles were teaching the people and were openly declaring the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
4 However, many of those who had listened to the speech believed, and the number of the men became about 5,000.
Acts 5
25 But someone came and reported to them: “Look! The men you put in prison are in the temple, standing and teaching the people.”
26 Then the captain went off with his officers and brought them in, but without violence, because they were afraid of being stoned by the people.
27 So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them
28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”
29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.
40 At this they took his advice, and they summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking on the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go.
41 So they went out from before the Sanʹhe·drin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy to be dishonored in behalf of his name.
42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.

Do you need more?
Acts 6:7 ...the word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying very much in Jerusalem; and a large crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith... ; Acts 8:1-5 ...those who had been scattered went through the land declaring the good news of the word... ; Acts 8:25 ...when they had given the witness thoroughly and had spoken the word of Jehovah, they started back toward Jerusalem, and they went declaring the good news to many villages of the Samaritans.

Brian, do you believe the angels are still very much involved in directing faithful obedient followers of the master, as Paul said?
(Acts 8:26-30) 26 However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Get up and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Gazʹa.” (This is a desert road.) 27 With that he got up and went, and look! an E·thi·oʹpi·an eunuch, a man who had authority under Can·daʹce, queen of the E·thi·oʹpi·ans, and who was in charge of all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and he was returning and was sitting in his chariot, reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. 29 So the spirit said to Philip: “Go over and approach this chariot.” 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?”
Or do you really think the teaching and preaching work Jesus commanded has ended?
Who ended it, and who told you that it has ended, and you don't have to obey the command of the Lord - "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” Matthew 28:19-20
Do you not realize that Jesus said for this reason you must go... "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth" .

We don't get to decide what we want to do, and what we don't want to do for Christ.
The master decides that. If you don't want to be a slave of the Christ you can complain all you want.

Remember though, what happened to the sluggish slave that complained. (Matthew 25:24-30)
There's still time to repent.

One thing is true about Jehovah's Witnesses. Nearly the whole world knows that they don't fit the description of sluggish. The master says jump. we don't even ask how high. We start jumping...

as high as we can.
You don't like that? Read the verses that follow verse 30 of Matthew 25.

I'm not at all surprised, confused, or annoyed at your position Brian. It's expected.
You cannot do it on your own, and you certainly can't receive when you don't have.
The attitude the apostles had could not be like yours, and certainly Jehovah's Witnesses don't have such an attitude. That's why they receive from the Lord what it takes.
(Acts 1:8) "But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.”
Yes Bran. It takes holy spirit.
You should really consider that, and ask yourself some questions. If you are humble that is.

Brian2 said:
It is the Lord who adds to the number by His Spirit. Preaching is needed because people cannot believe if they have not heard.

I'm glad we at least agree on that.
So how is this preaching done, and why do you reject the house to house and public witnessing.
If I have misunderstood you, and am making inaccurate statements here, please correct me, and explain what it is you are rejecting, if not what i said.

Brian2 said:
Breaking bread from door to door sounds like they celebrated the last supper meal quite regularly, not just every year, but that is another topic.

Breaking bread from door to door. Where did you read that please?

Brian2 said:
That is the commandment to the Church and the Watchtower has changed it to apply to all JWs and to apply in a certain way. And what happens if a JW refuses to do the preaching work set out by the Watchtower for all to do?

Are you serious?
It's a commandment of the church?
Oh I get it. You do not believe the Bible is God's word. You think the Roman Catholic wrote it. Is that an accurate assessment?

Brian2 said:
What happens if a JW refuses to do the preaching work?

You mean like a JW that has your attitude? There is no such thing as a JW that doesn't witness.

Are you asking this because you don't know? Or because you want to drag this into further attacks on JWs beliefs? 50 years of looking for things to criticize, and you don't know?

I'll bite the bait.

Some JWs do at time slow down, or become inactive, but the elders, that is, the loving shepherds in the congregation, visit these one to give them kind words of encouragement from the scriptures.
Many have been reactivated, and some who have slowed down, do try.

If however, someone tells the elders, "I don't think it is necessary to preach the good news." The elders are interested in understanding why. They take an interest, like the apostle Paul, who said... 'You were running well. Who hindered you from continuing to obey the truth? This sort of persuasion does not come from the One calling you.' (Galatians 5:7, 8)
They hope the person would readjust their thinking.
However, if they are adamant in their new found belief, they are free to practice that belief wherever they picked it up, which isn't among Jehovah's faithful witnesses.

I'll create a thread personally for you.

nPeace · Mar 28, 2021

Brian2 said:
I do not see anything about house to house in 2 Timothy. The house to house quote in Acts 5 is an interpretation of the Watchtower, that it means go from door to door to spread the gospel. It may not mean that and also the Watchtower has made that interpretation into a command and all JWs need to obey the Watchtower.

Did I put 2 Timothy there? I made a mistake, it's quite obvious.
That interpretation appeal does grate my teeth, but of course what else would we expect from those fittingly described by apostle Paul, at 2 Timothy 4:3.
Notice the surrounding verses. The contrast reveals the obvious.

Let's see...
Acts 5:42 Every day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

New International Version
Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

New Living Translation
And every day, in the Temple and from house to house, they continued to teach and preach this message: “Jesus is the Messiah.”

English Standard Version
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
Every day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
And every day, in the temple and in every house, they did not cease teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

King James Bible
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

New King James Version
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

New American Standard Bible
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and preaching the good news of Jesus as the Christ.

NASB 1995
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

NASB 1977
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

Amplified Bible
And every single day, in the temple [area] and in homes, they did not stop teaching and telling the good news of Jesus as the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

Christian Standard Bible
Every day in the temple, and in various homes, they continued teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Every day in the temple complex, and in various homes, they continued teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

American Standard Version
And every day, in the temple and at home, they ceased not to teach and to preach Jesus as the Christ.

Contemporary English Version
Every day they spent time in the temple and in one home after another. They never stopped teaching and telling the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And every day they ceased not in the temple, and from house to house, to teach and preach Christ Jesus.

English Revised Version
And every day, in the temple and at home, they ceased not to teach and to preach Jesus as the Christ.

Good News Translation
And every day in the Temple and in people's homes they continued to teach and preach the Good News about Jesus the Messiah.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Every day in the temple courtyard and from house to house, they refused to stop teaching and telling the Good News that Jesus is the Messiah.

International Standard Version
Every day in the Temple and from house to house they kept teaching and proclaiming that Jesus is the Messiah.

Literal Standard Version
also every day in the temple, and in every house, they were not ceasing teaching and proclaiming good news—Jesus the Christ.

NET Bible
And every day both in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus was the Christ.

New Heart English Bible
Every day, in the temple and at home, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ.

Weymouth New Testament
But they did not desist from teaching every day, in the Temple or in private houses, and telling the Good News about Jesus, the Christ.

World English Bible
Every day, in the temple and at home, they never stopped teaching and preaching Jesus, the Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
every day also in the temple, and in every house, they were not ceasing teaching and proclaiming good news -- Jesus the Christ.

I suppose the Watchtower produced all these...

Oh wait! You don't believe the apostles lived in every house throughout Jerusalem... do you?
Wait! You believe they were preaching the good news to one another? :facepalm:

Interpreting things to suit one's preferences, won't save you Brian.

The-Pharisees%E2%80%99-Judgment-on-Jesus.jpg

Be back later. got to eat.
Pardon any typos. Didn't have the chance to review it.

nPeace · Mar 28, 2021

Brian2 said:
I am not saying that Christians should not preach the gospel. Why do you suggest that I have.

What are you saying?

Brian2 said:
Heb 13:17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

That does not mean to be obedient in everything they tell you, especially if they are abusing their power and demanding you do what is not what the Lord wants you to do specifically,,,,,,,,,,,,or if they are making up commands that you must obey to be loyal to God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but really it is just to be loyal to them.

Please give an example of abusing power, and making up commands.
Do you mean like, "Brother Garcia! Go clean the toilets!"
Our loving brothers do not do those things.
Making up commands,,, would that have to do with not wearing clothing or styles that do not identify us apart from the world?
That's actually scriptural. (1 Timothy 2:9, 10)
Maybe you have the wrong people.

"Everything", as mentioned in that text, means what? Everything that sounds good to me? Or does it not mean everthing based on Bible principles and Scriptural direction?

Brian2 said:
I am not saying that the door to door stuff is wrong or that you should stop. In fact I recommended that you keep doing it if you think it is wrong to stop.
It is the WT that interprets the Bible for you and makes commands where there are no commands in the Bible. That is what I want you to see.

I explained to you why I do it. I decided to do it, because it's what the Lord wants, and I understand why it is important. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4
It is God's will that people be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

I suppose you don't understand what it's like to meet persons who appreciate a comforting word, at just the right time... or showing people that you really are interested in them, or that God values them, even when they don't feel valued... or helping someone give up a bad habit which they are fighting with, and failing... or being there at the right time resulting in someone saving their marriage, or their life.
You have no idea the amount of people that are so grateful that JWs made, or are making calls in their neighborhood.

You can only truly understand what Jesus felt, when you live it.
(Matthew 9:36-38) 36 On seeing the crowds, he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”

We preach and teach because we love our neighbor, and because first and foremost, we love Jehovah, who loves people, and want to help save them.
We are happy, joyful slaves of Christ, doing as he did, and wills -
(Isaiah 61:1, 2) 1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, 2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn,

Brian2 said:
No I was not referring to Judas. Maybe the Legalistic Jewish Christians who wanted to make circumcision and keeping the law compulsory. That would sort of fit with the WT who bring in other man made commands and make them compulsory for someone who wants to remain a JW.

I asked you what manmade commandment JWs teach. You haven't stated any. So I guess you either don't know of any, or are not interested in providing any.

Brian2 said:
One minute you deny that the Governing Body is the faithful and wise servant and the next you admit it.
They have given their wise council that JWs of years gone by should not go to college and get an education because the time is short and the work of the Kingdom is more urgent. Many JWs missed out on an education because of that. And yes the work of the Kingdom is important but the context of the wise council was when the Lord was expected in a particular year. That council was not given at the proper time and was not proper food.

I denied the Governing Body is the faithful slave? When and where did I do that?
You have the twisted version of the facts.
To this day higher education is not encouraged (reasons given), and it is not due to, as you say "because the time is short".
Of course, higher education is not the only thing the faithful slave has encouraged against pursuing.
Like Paul, they give similar encouragement -
(1 Corinthians 7:29-31) 29 Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. From now on, let those who have wives be as though they had none, 30 and those who weep as those who do not weep, and those who rejoice as those who do not rejoice, and those who buy as those who do not possess, 31 and those making use of the world as those not using it to the full; for the scene of this world is changing.

I don't have to guess what Jesus would say to you, if you were there listening to him.
You obviously are against many things the zealous servants of God says.
The Bible does say, 'Faith is not the possession of all people'. (2 Thessalonians 3:2)

Brian2 said:
That relationship is between them and God.
Some of the teachings you must be referring to are teachings condemned by the WT which has foisted that judgement about those things onto their members and condemned people who are acting in good conscience and innocently.
You cannot have a birthday, you cannot celebrate Christmas, you cannot wear a cross, you cannot etc etc.
If you approve or disapprove of this sort of thing then keep it between you and God and don't condemn others for what they approve. That sounds Biblical to me.
But no, all this stuff is used to demonise Christendom.

Of course, don't let me get in the way of your relationship with God.
I guess none of God's servants, including Jesus and his apostles didn't know how to mind their own business, and let people mind their own relationship with God.

(Matthew 3:7-10) 7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.

(Matthew 23:33) . . .“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?

Are JWs following the wrong example, would you say?

nPeace · Mar 28, 2021

Brian2 said:
Where does the Bible speak of one group of men being the sole channel of truth for humanity? It is only the WT that declare that they are and show that they have taught errors from the beginning.

Brian2 said:
Jesus proved who He was, and the WT has shown what they are.

Brian2 said:
That's the point isn't it. The WT claims the same authority as Jesus when their mistakes show they are not being led by God's Spirit.

I don't know where you got that bit of information but it's erroneous.
No Watchtower has ever claimed the same authority as Jesus.
Spoken like a true apostate. Are you?

Brian2 said:
John knew Jesus and what He taught and was led by the Spirit. No arrogance there. Paul agreed with John, no arrogance there. We just interpret the scriptures they wrote.

So you don't believe Jesus is with any of his followers on earth today? Did I say you don't believe scriptures? I hope I did. Thanks for the confirmation.
Which reminds me... You didn't answer my question on why you have a Bible.

Brian2 said:
I don't have to accept a certain denomination or group of men in order to accept Jesus.
And really that is what the WT is, a group of men like any other. A group that has gone so far that it claims to be the only group worth listening to. A group of men that says "without us and our guidance you are lost". A group that warns about studying the Bible without them and what they say it means.

Christians are joined as the Body of Christ even though our minor teachings vary. The oneness of the Body goes deeper than some variations in doctrine.

Christians? Post #87 LOL

Brian2 said:
You have been disqualified from being a Christian by a group of men who have interpreted you out of the New Covenant but who can point to not one verse that agrees with that teaching.
It's a bit like the Mormons who claim a warming in the bosom or something. The anointed know they are anointed because of something like that. The rest are less prone to that sort of fantasy and stand back and say "I must be one of the others".
But as I say, not one scripture. If anything the scriptures point in the opposite direction, with direct statements to that effect.
What is the reply of the WT?
It is "ah don't worry about those scriptures, they were written only for the anointed, not for you lot."

I'm still laughing whenever you mention Christian, and I think back to post #87. Who are they Brian.

Brian2 said:
If you know differently and are correcting me on that, I accept the correction.
From the following site I get the following quote and other things. Is the quote correct?
When we are baptised we get baptised into Christ, not into a man made organisation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,don't you agree.
Historical changes to the Watchtower Baptism Arrangement and Questions
Jesus commanded to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Over time, Watchtower has changed the question asked prior to immersion, replacing "holy spirit" with "spirit-directed organization," and then removing reference to the "holy spirit" altogether.

LOL.

Brian. Just stop going to those contaminated waters, and you would know that JWs baptize persons as directed by Jesus.

rational experiences · Mar 28, 2021

Eddi said:
No!

Because the whole of Christianity is based on Jesus being God

Without him being God the whole thing doesn't work

Also, the resurrection is central to Christianity - there can be no Christianity with no resurrection

And without God there can be no resurrection

Yet a human is only a human.

A human discusses out of space when you aren't space. You discuss suns when you aren't suns or stars or planets.

A human a self stands living on a planet.

A human says it is a planet. The planet didn't talk to you asking you to name it.

A human said in science I will name the planet one.
God as one. For my sciences.
I will name it an entity.
I will name it stone.

As a human.

Then says if God meaning a planet did not exist then nor would the resurrection.

Nor would you human exist owning the discussion.

Brian2 · Mar 29, 2021

Katzpur said:
BS, Brian. Once again. Luke 24:30-32 describes this phenomenon: "And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Luke does not say this feeling means one is "anointed" or special in any way, and Mormons DO NOT CLAIM THAT. Anyone can have that feeling after a very spiritual experience -- a "burning in the bosom." Why don't you just leave the subject of what Mormons believe to somebody who knows what they're talking about?

What I was saying is that for the JWs the evidence for whether you are anointed (one of the 144,ooo) or not is subjective, just as the burning in the bosom experience for Mormons is.

nPeace · Mar 29, 2021

Brian2 said:
What I was saying is that for the JWs the evidence for whether you are anointed (one of the 144,ooo) or not is subjective, just as the burning in the bosom experience for Mormons is.

Subjective to whom?
If your belly is hurting, and you have diarrhea, is that subjective, or objective?

First, you appeal to interpretation. Now you are appealing to subjectivity. I am shaking my head.

(Romans 8:14-17) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs - heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ - provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

Is that not objective - the same way as if a man who were hiding in your closet was sticking you with pins at night?

Here is a Watchtower for you...
7 But how does a person know that he or she has the heavenly calling? The answer is clearly seen in Paul’s words to those in Rome who were “called to be holy ones.” He told them: “You did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’ The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Rom. 1:7; 8:15, 16) So by means of his holy spirit, God makes it clear to anointed ones that they have this heavenly calling.—1 Thess. 2:12.

8 Jehovah leaves no doubt whatsoever in the minds and hearts of those who receive his invitation to go to heaven. (Read 1 John 2:20, 27.) Of course, anointed Christians need to be taught by Jehovah through the congregation just like everyone else. But they do not need anyone to confirm that they are anointed. Jehovah has used the most powerful force in the universe, his holy spirit, to make it absolutely clear to them that they are anointed!

Brian2 · Mar 29, 2021

nPeace said:
Subjective to whom?
If your belly is hurting, and you have diarrhea, is that subjective, or objective?

First, you appeal to interpretation. Now you are appealing to subjectivity. I am shaking my head.

(Romans 8:14-17) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs - heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ - provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

Is that not objective - the same way as if a man who were hiding in your closet was sticking you with pins at night?

Here is a Watchtower for you...
7 But how does a person know that he or she has the heavenly calling? The answer is clearly seen in Paul’s words to those in Rome who were “called to be holy ones.” He told them: “You did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’ The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Rom. 1:7; 8:15, 16) So by means of his holy spirit, God makes it clear to anointed ones that they have this heavenly calling.—1 Thess. 2:12.

8 Jehovah leaves no doubt whatsoever in the minds and hearts of those who receive his invitation to go to heaven. (Read 1 John 2:20, 27.) Of course, anointed Christians need to be taught by Jehovah through the congregation just like everyone else. But they do not need anyone to confirm that they are anointed. Jehovah has used the most powerful force in the universe, his holy spirit, to make it absolutely clear to them that they are anointed!

It is subjective in that it can only be felt by the individual and nobody can verify it.
Is God your Father? Yes.
How do you know that?
It is a faith that you feel from within?
Why is God's Fatherhood to you any different to God's Fatherhood to the anointed?
That comes down to interpretation of the passages.
If you think that only the anointed are born again and receive the Spirit of God then only they are children of God.
BUT Romans 8 seems to make it clear that if we are not led by the Spirit (anointed) then we cannot please God and if we are then we are children of God and heirs with Jesus. John 3 makes it clear that if we are not born again, receive the Spirit, we cannot see and enter the Kingdom. The Gospels make it clear that all believers enter the Kingdom. NO SCRIPTURES say that only 144,000 see and enter the Kingdom. That part is an interpretation of a small handful of men.
The scriptures on the other hand say that "everyone" who believes Jesus is the Christ is born of God. (1John 5:1) and John 14:23 tells us that the Father and Jesus will come and dwell with "anyone" who loves Jesus and obeys His teaching.
Being born again is not limited to 144,000 in the scriptures, only in the teachings of the small group of men known as your leaders.
Where is the invitation to heaven for only a few?
No objective scriptural evidence.

Brian2 · Mar 29, 2021

nPeace said:
I don't know where you got that bit of information but it's erroneous.
No Watchtower has ever claimed the same authority as Jesus.
Spoken like a true apostate. Are you?

No I'm not an apostate.
And you are probably right that no Watchtower has ever claimed the same authority as Jesus, explicitly. BUT what they do claim implies the same.

nPeace said:
So you don't believe Jesus is with any of his followers on earth today? Did I say you don't believe scriptures? I hope I did. Thanks for the confirmation.
Which reminds me... You didn't answer my question on why you have a Bible.

I guess I have a Bible to find out the truth, and part of that truth is that Jesus is with all of his followers on earth today.

nPeace said:
I'm still laughing whenever you mention Christian, and I think back to post #87. Who are they Brian.

At the end of the day that will be made known by Jesus and it won't be all about doctrine imo.

Brian2 · Mar 30, 2021

nPeace said:
What does the master tell you Brian, and where do you incline your ear to hear?

I listen for what Jesus is telling me to do by way of any gifts I may have been given and what His word tells us and what others in the body may see in me or need.

nPeace said:
By quoting that, does that mean you agree the congregation was a united brotherhood?
Yes. They truly were. They came together as a united spiritual family, and you know what else they did? They went about spreading the message to make more disciples, as the master instructed them.

Yes they were united initially but the tended to disagree on things at times (as in Corinth and with the Legalistic Christians of Acts 15.
And of course they spread the gospel, but as it says "as the Lord instructed them". That does not mean they all did it the same way or as directed by the apostles.
You seem to be implying that I am saying that we should not preach the gospel.
But if you want to say that JWs are so much better at doing what God wants, it is up to you. That would be taking after your leaders who also seem to want to say that JWs love each other more than others.

nPeace said:
We don't get to decide what we want to do, and what we don't want to do for Christ.
The master decides that.

Of course I do not decide what the Lord wants me to do, but I do decide if I will do it or not. That is a difference between the Lord and the Governing body. With the Governing Body it is "my way or the highway brother".
This is also the way that the appearance of unity is kept. It is with the heavy hand of threats of disfellowship. In the Body of Christ there is more acceptance of the diversity in the Body.

nPeace said:
One thing is true about Jehovah's Witnesses. Nearly the whole world knows that they don't fit the description of sluggish. The master says jump. we don't even ask how high. We start jumping... as high as we can.
You don't like that? Read the verses that follow verse 30 of Matthew 25.

The problem I have is if you are dancing to the tune of the Lord or a bunch of men.

nPeace said:
I'm glad we at least agree on that.
So how is this preaching done, and why do you reject the house to house and public witnessing.
If I have misunderstood you, and am making inaccurate statements here, please correct me, and explain what it is you are rejecting, if not what i said.

I have told you that I am against the bunch of men who run the organisation.

nPeace said:
Breaking bread from door to door. Where did you read that please?

Acts 2:46, but it probably is not about the communion meal.

nPeace said:
Are you serious?
It's a commandment of the church?
Oh I get it. You do not believe the Bible is God's word. You think the Roman Catholic wrote it. Is that an accurate assessment?

I wrote it is a command TO the church. So with that little mistake you do missed the point.

nPeace said:
You mean like a JW that has your attitude? There is no such thing as a JW that doesn't witness.

Are you asking this because you don't know? Or because you want to drag this into further attacks on JWs beliefs? 50 years of looking for things to criticize, and you don't know?
I'll bite the bait.
Some JWs do at time slow down, or become inactive, but the elders, that is, the loving shepherds in the congregation, visit these one to give them kind words of encouragement from the scriptures.
Many have been reactivated, and some who have slowed down, do try.

If however, someone tells the elders, "I don't think it is necessary to preach the good news." The elders are interested in understanding why. They take an interest, like the apostle Paul, who said... 'You were running well. Who hindered you from continuing to obey the truth? This sort of persuasion does not come from the One calling you.' (Galatians 5:7, 8)
They hope the person would readjust their thinking.
However, if they are adamant in their new found belief, they are free to practice that belief wherever they picked it up, which isn't among Jehovah's faithful witnesses.
I'll create a thread personally for you.

That is what I thought. It is not the Spirit of God at work but a group of men with a whip.
Be united in what WE say, obey what WE tell you to, go out from door to door, etc etc or you are out and you only have salvation in us, nowhere else, and when you are out you will lose family and friends as much as we can make that happen. But we do it because we love you.
No personal attack on any JW but I do dislike the Governing Body and the laws they wield as if they are commands from God.
Obey me or else.

Brian2 · Mar 30, 2021

nPeace said:
Let's see...
Acts 5:42 Every day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

It could mean that used various people's houses as sort of gathering places to teach and preach. It could also mean what the WT has decided it means.
Either way, it is not a command that this is the way it should be done.
But that is the way you have to obey because you obey your little group of men and their ideas even though they have shown they are not led by the Holy Spirit in what they say.

Brian2 · Mar 30, 2021

nPeace said:
Please give an example of abusing power, and making up commands.
Do you mean like, "Brother Garcia! Go clean the toilets!"
Our loving brothers do not do those things.
Making up commands,,, would that have to do with not wearing clothing or styles that do not identify us apart from the world?
That's actually scriptural. (1 Timothy 2:9, 10)
Maybe you have the wrong people.

"Everything", as mentioned in that text, means what? Everything that sounds good to me? Or does it not mean everthing based on Bible principles and Scriptural direction?

1Tim 2:8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

It is a stretch to make that passage into something that means the Governing Body can tell people to not wear beards or whatever else they force onto you.
I'm not a JW so I have to go by what I have heard over the years.
No smoking, no beards, no birthdays, no Christmas, no anal sex, no slacking on the door to door thing, attend meetings, must believe what we say, even when we decide to change that doctrine etc etc. I'm sure you know more. To me amongst us and to be saved you must do what we say and not do what we forbid. These are rules from God because we are the voice of God for you. We are led by the Holy Spirit, you do not have the Holy Spirit so you do what God through us tells you to do and not do.
This is what is sounds like to me. It is not that blunt when it comes from the top of the hierarchy but that is what it boils down to. Commands of men for salvation as if they are commands of God. Just like the legalistic Christians of Acts 15. Just like what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

nPeace said:
I explained to you why I do it. I decided to do it, because it's what the Lord wants, and I understand why it is important. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4
It is God's will that people be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

You might have the right attitude to it. Good. I am against it being made a command that must be obeyed or you are out.

nPeace said:
Of course, don't let me get in the way of your relationship with God.
I guess none of God's servants, including Jesus and his apostles didn't know how to mind their own business, and let people mind their own relationship with God.

...................Are JWs following the wrong example, would you say?

We are not Jesus, the one who came and judge the Jews and who had the authority to do that.
I am against the small group of men who, for no scriptural reason apart from their theories about passages in Revelation, tell millions that they are not children of God and have not the Holy Spirit and are not part of the New Covenant and must work for their salvation by doing what they say etc.

nPeace · Mar 30, 2021

Brian2 said:
It is subjective in that it can only be felt by the individual and nobody can verify it.

So are you saying that the signals to my brain, when I get pricked, burned, an urgent call of nature, the urge to release waste... these are all subjective, because they are felt by me alone, and not verified by others?
You'll certainly be able to verify my urgent call of nature, after it's done, I'm sure.

The thing about that is, while it is true, what we 'feel', might be misinterpreted, it is also true that some 'signals' or actual 'feelings' are not. In fact they better not be.
Can you imagine what would happen if we all said, when nature calls, 'Maybe it's my imagination.' Or, 'It's just my feelings. Maybe I need to put on my clothes and go to the doctor, just in case there is something alien, inside of me."

What someone may know to be truth, may well be objective truth, regardless of what you don't know.
For example, a child who says they are being touched, molested, is not just going by feelings, just because mommy don't know, or can't verify it.
It's that child's experience.

When those 120 disciples received holy spirit, they knew. Recall it became more clear to them when they were speaking in different tongues, or languages... and people had evidence, but they denied it. They said, "These men are drunk."
The disciples did not need confirmation from those people. They had it from God - his holy spirit.
The evidence of it as seen there, will be denied, but that's person's personal opinion.

Brian2 said:
Is God your Father? Yes.
How do you know that?
It is a faith that you feel from within?

I am not talking about feeling, so you need to make up your mind what you mean by subjective.
Are you referring to this definition? Subjective - based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.? Or something else?
Subjectivity in a philosophical context has to do with a lack of objective reality. Subjectivity has been given various and ambiguous definitions by differing sources as it is not often the focal point of philosophical discourse.
Let me know when you decide, so that we can be on the same page, so to speak.

Brian2 said:
Why is God's Fatherhood to you any different to God's Fatherhood to the anointed?
That comes down to interpretation of the passages.
If you think that only the anointed are born again and receive the Spirit of God then only they are children of God.
BUT Romans 8 seems to make it clear that if we are not led by the Spirit (anointed) then we cannot please God and if we are then we are children of God and heirs with Jesus. John 3 makes it clear that if we are not born again, receive the Spirit, we cannot see and enter the Kingdom. The Gospels make it clear that all believers enter the Kingdom. NO SCRIPTURES say that only 144,000 see and enter the Kingdom. That part is an interpretation of a small handful of men.
The scriptures on the other hand say that "everyone" who believes Jesus is the Christ is born of God. (1John 5:1) and John 14:23 tells us that the Father and Jesus will come and dwell with "anyone" who loves Jesus and obeys His teaching.
Being born again is not limited to 144,000 in the scriptures, only in the teachings of the small group of men known as your leaders.
Where is the invitation to heaven for only a few?
No objective scriptural evidence.

May I remind you that when I wanted to discuss this with you scripturally, you jetted from answering any questions posed to you. So you are only here doing what you guys do best... rattle off scriptures you 'hand' pick, while ignoring what you don't want.
My answers were all presented with the use of scripture, and you ran away, refusing to address even one.

Saint Frankenstein · Mar 30, 2021

SalixIncendium said:
My question is this: Is it possible in your religion to be a member of or follow your religion and identify as atheist? Why or why not?

No, because the most basic foundation of the Abrahamic religions is belief in one God. If you don't even the basic foundation, the rest doesn't matter because it just collapses.

nPeace · Mar 30, 2021

Brian2 said:
No I'm not an apostate.
And you are probably right that no Watchtower has ever claimed the same authority as Jesus, explicitly. BUT what they do claim implies the same.

Not true!
The Watchtowers all say that the faithful slave is under the authority of Christ. How can the body be the head, or equal to it?
Speak the truth Brian, not falsehood.

Brian2 said:
I guess I have a Bible to find out the truth, and part of that truth is that Jesus is with all of his followers on earth today.

Yes. You got that part of truth right. All of them

Brian2 said:
At the end of the day that will be made known by Jesus and it won't be all about doctrine imo.

At the end of the day, it will be known, but too late for those who don't know.
For you to have made the statement at post 87, you would have had in your mind that you know. Am I incorrect? What is a real Christian Brian? Let's see if you answer me this time, or avoid answering again.

nPeace · Mar 30, 2021

@Brian2 do you mind if I take the rest of your responses over to a new thread. I feel badly that i have discussed another topic in this thread. I don't like doing that. Is that okay with you?

Brian2 · Mar 31, 2021

nPeace said:
May I remind you that when I wanted to discuss this with you scripturally, you jetted from answering any questions posed to you. So you are only here doing what you guys do best... rattle off scriptures you 'hand' pick, while ignoring what you don't want.
My answers were all presented with the use of scripture, and you ran away, refusing to address even one.

I found nothing in the scriptures you gave (and if I remember correctly they were many) which said that there is a special group of anointed Christians. It is a teaching of the WT but is not found in the Bible. In fact the opposite is found and you ignore the obvious scriptures saying all are Born Again and receive the Holy Spirit etc and would rather go along with WT hand picked scriptures that they might say suggest an anointed class.

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