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Omphalos Hypothesis

1213

Well-Known Member
No, none of those can drown. I don't know what word that you are trying to use, but "drown" is clearly wrong.

I meant, they sink and get buried in sediments. I thought drowning means also that. But, “drown” means also “die through submersion in and inhalation of water”. I didn’t mean that for example bones die. :D

Yes, you did. And you demonstrated it by not justifying your claim. You made false claims about "assumptions" and could not support that claim.

That they make assumptions is said even in here:

“Previously, when applying the alternative Pb–Pb isochron diagram, the 238U/235U isotope ratios were assumed to be invariant among meteoritic material.”
Lead–lead dating - Wikipedia

Using the Lead/lead method. Or using anything that involves isochrons.

If I have understood correctly, the idea of that is, radioactive isotope decays in certain rate and by checking how much radioactive isotope there is left and how much non-radioactive isotope there is, we would calculate the age of the sample. Now, that assumes that there was not originally any non-radioactive isotope in the sample. However, it is possible that there were originally also non-radioactive isotopes, which is why the method can’t be trusted.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Incorrect, and this demonstrates that you do not even have a high school level of scientific literacy. That sedimentary rocks are ancient was demonstrated long before we even had radiocactive dating.

That is funny. Please tell how it was demonstrated?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
You should have read what I said. I ignore it, because there is no real proof or evidence for it.

I read what you said.

And you were foolish enough to think that you could post a source that claims that the world is millions of years old and think you could use it to support a young Earth. You failed, and you failed hard. Your cherry picking of facts that you like/ignoring of facts you dislike is there for all to see, and now instead of admitting your mistake you are doubling down on it.

Your source does not say what you want it to say. You have not provided a single shred of evidence to show that fossil fuels can exist on a young earth. If you are determined to hold to your YEC position, at least go and find a source that doesn't base itself on an OLD Earth, okay?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You should have read what I said. I ignore it, because there is no real proof or evidence for it.
You forgot that you do not understand the concept of evidence. By the way since there is real evidence for it I am assuming that you are not lying in your statement. You are either lying, or you do not understand the concept of evidence. I am going with the latter.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I meant, they sink and get buried in sediments. I thought drowning means also that. But, “drown” means also “die through submersion in and inhalation of water”. I didn’t mean that for example bones die. :D

That is not the meaning of the word "drowned". Not all sediments are marine or even lacustrine. Some of them are aeolian. Flood believers have no explanation for that. Their beliefs are also refuted by salt deposits in the middle of a "flood". Layers with millions of years of annual deposits that leave layers very similar to the rings on a tree. Chalk. And countless other examples. You cannot refute that which you do not understand.

That they make assumptions is said even in here:

“Previously, when applying the alternative Pb–Pb isochron diagram, the 238U/235U isotope ratios were assumed to be invariant among meteoritic material.”
Lead–lead dating - Wikipedia

LOL! No, you got that 100% wrong. They used to have to assume that. The next few lines explain a work around. And you need to understand that scientists often use a different definition of "assume" than you are. If a scientists says "assuming this" they need to be able to justify that assumption. In your sense of using it to attack an idea they are not "assuming".

"To accommodate this, U-corrected Pb–Pb dating analysis is used to generate ages for the oldest solid material in the solar system using a revised 238U/235U value of 137.786 ± 0.013 to represent the mean 238U/235U isotope ratio bulk inner solar system materials.[4]

The result of U-corrected Pb–Pb dating has produced ages of 4567.35 ± 0.28 My for CAIs (A) and chondrules with ages between 4567.32 ± 0.42 and 4564.71 ± 0.30 My (B and C) (see figure). This supports the idea that CAIs crystallization and chondrule formation occurred around the same time during the formation of the solar system. However, chondrules continued to form for approximately 3 My after CAIs. Hence the best age for the original formation of the solar system is 4567.7 My. This date also represents the time of initiation of planetary accretion. Successive collisions between accreted bodies led to the formation of larger and larger planetesimals, finally forming the Earth–Moon system in a giant impact event"

If I have understood correctly, the idea of that is, radioactive isotope decays in certain rate and by checking how much radioactive isotope there is left and how much non-radioactive isotope there is, we would calculate the age of the sample. Now, that assumes that there was not originally any non-radioactive isotope in the sample. However, it is possible that there were originally also non-radioactive isotopes, which is why the method can’t be trusted.

No, that is never the assumption. Now in some cases it is a reasonable conclusion. For example when dating zircons it is reasonable to assume that there was no significant lead in the crystal to start with. Do you know why? It is not an assumption in the sense that you are using the word.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is funny. Please tell how it was demonstrated?
By observing deposits and the sort of environment that they are deposited in.

Take shale for example. That cannot be rapidly deposited. Flood deposits have to form very quickly since floods are transient events. That means the amount of sorting is minimalistic. Shale on the other had consists of extremely well sorted clay. That can only happen very slowly in very still waters. The courser materials, sand and silt, have long since settled out of that water leaving only clay particles behind.

And here is an example that even an amateur can understand. Lakes will often have varves, those are annual layers that go from coarser to finer grains every year as the incoming water goes from wet seasons to dry seasons. There is one deposit alone with millions of annual layers:

Green River Formation - Wikipedia

And then there is of course the fact that ice floats.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
By observing deposits and the sort of environment that they are deposited in.

Take shale for example. That cannot be rapidly deposited. Flood deposits have to form very quickly since floods are transient events. That means the amount of sorting is minimalistic. Shale on the other had consists of extremely well sorted clay. That can only happen very slowly in very still waters.

Sorry, I don't believe that.

...And here is an example that even an amateur can understand. Lakes will often have varves, those are annual layers that go from coarser to finer grains every year as the incoming water goes from wet seasons to dry seasons. There is one deposit alone with millions of annual layers:

The problem with that is that it is based on assumption those layers form always only annually. It is possible that they only tell how many times there has been formed a new layer. And it is possible that there have been many layers in one year.

And then there is of course the fact that ice floats.

And what is your point with that?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...For example when dating zircons it is reasonable to assume that there was no significant lead in the crystal to start with. Do you know why?...

Because it gives more suitable time line for atheistic beliefs?

And, it is an assumption. And it is not something that we know surely, therefore the whole dating is questionable and easily wrong.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...If you are determined to hold to your YEC position, at least go and find a source that doesn't base itself on an OLD Earth, okay?

The source is good, because it explains the process well enough. Only the time part, which is not and can’t be proven, is something to be ignored.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, I don't believe that.

Reality does not care whether you believe in it or not.

The problem with that is that it is based on assumption those layers form always only annually. It is possible that they only tell how many times there has been formed a new layer. And it is possible that there have been many layers in one year.
Nope, not an assumption. An observation. Please learn the difference. Creationists have no scientific explanation. There only explanation is "magic".


And what is your point with that?
The ice caps have been in place for hundreds of thousands of years. A worldwide flood would have floated them and destroyed their structure.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Because it gives more suitable time line for atheistic beliefs?

And, it is an assumption. And it is not something that we know surely, therefore the whole dating is questionable and easily wrong.
Nope. it has nothing to do with atheistic beliefs. It is not an assumption. It is actually something that can be measured and observed in the laboratory. You have only confirmed that you have no clue when it comes to the sciences and that the Ninth Commandment means nothing to you.

By the way, you should not conflate science and reality with atheism. Though it is a nice compliment. Not all Christians believe in a lying God like you do. Most Christians do not take Genesis literally. Not even in the U.S.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
The source is good, because it explains the process well enough. Only the time part, which is not and can’t be proven, is something to be ignored.

You can't claim the source is good and then leave out parts of the source because you reject them.

If the source is good as you claim, then the parts where it says the process needs millions of years are good, and thus it proves an old earth is required.

By the way, there was absolutely nothing in that source which claimed that fossil fuels could be formed quickly, which is what I asked you to support. So even if I accept your argument (and I don't), your source STILL doesn't support it.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...By the way, there was absolutely nothing in that source which claimed that fossil fuels could be formed quickly, which is what I asked you to support. So even if I accept your argument (and I don't), your source STILL doesn't support it.

We don’t have any knowledge how long it would take, before we test it. And there is no reason why it could not happen for example in 1000 years. That is why it is still possible that it happened for example in 1000 years. But, I understand you can’t believe it, because it doesn’t fit into your world view.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...By the way, you should not conflate science and reality with atheism. ..

I agree, true science is honest and has nothing against Bible or God. I conflate pseudoscience with atheism. Pseudoscience is the “scientific theories” that are against the Bible that have no real testable evidence to support them.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
Nope, not an assumption. An observation. ..

No one has been observing them all the time.

...The ice caps have been in place for hundreds of thousands of years. A worldwide flood would have floated them and destroyed their structure.

There is nothing that proves the hundreds of thousands of years. I think the Ice caps are the result of the great flood, because the heavy rain and death of living beings cooled the earth and caused the ice age.

Also, even though Ice floats generally, it has very poor buoyancy. About one tenth of ice is above the water. It is possible that there is so much ice that the water is frozen to the bottom of the lake/sea. So, no scientific reason to believe it the ice caps could not have existed.
 
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