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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Reason why I think they didn’t edit them is that there is so much contradictions between their own doctrines and the Bible.

Either way, the content as it stands still has the same the issues for Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews as mentioned in the OP. ;)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Please drop your elitist nonsense.

IF, those of us who don't buy into the NT are as elitist as you "claim" then all the better that we are not a part of your religion. Think about about far down we would bring it and how bothersome we would be for you. It is better for all that we keep to our side of things. Besides, you can prove us wrong by simply giving us a phone call or SMS when you say your guy is showing up. ;)

BTW, are you also a part of the "ark of jesus ministries international?" I have been told that that is the only way to get Jesus correctly. If you are not a part of it you may need to check your sources with them.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's great. I have the book open. Can you let me know on what page of Ma'aseh Ephod I can find this information?

Hi @rosends

You may have "A" book open, but you actually don't have "THE" book open.

Manuscript Orient 1425 with its maaseh ephod is sitting in the British museum.

Clear
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
That's great. I have the book open. Can you let me know on what page of Ma'aseh Ephod I can find this information?
@rosends, @Clear, here's a link to the digitalized manuscript Orient. 1425 of Maaseh Ephod. Now you guys can check what it actually says.

And good luck, because that's some complicated Sephardic handwriting. :D
 
Last edited:

rosends

Well-Known Member
@rosends, @Clear, here's a link to the digitalized manuscript Orient. 1425 of Maaseh Ephod. Now you guys can check what it actually says.

And good luck, because that's some complicated Sephardic handwriting. :D
Thanks - that is a manuscript of the printed text I linked to. For example, compare f. 15v to page 18.
So it might be easier to work with that published (typeset) version. But if I'm given a page in the manuscript, I can probably find it in the printed text.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's very obvious that you are far from understanding the things of GOD, HIS people, and even why Prophets are sent.
Erm, why really try hard on this forum not to insult one another. It can be very hard at times, because often one person will test another's patience, either because their logic is poor, or because they just aren't getting a point despite careful explanation over and over. But we do our best not to engage in these ad hominem attacks.

Attack the argument, or the point. Do not attack the person. Thanks.

That system in Deuteronomy, is a flawed system founded on error. That is why Aaron is the head of it. While the Prophets are above them, and judges of the Prophets is the Elijah. Amazing to me that all you say is the Prophet Malachi spoke of is not the same as Moses. Really? Then who is it? You didn't give any evidence. The rabbis are among them that do not know GOD. Imagine claiming that Noah is not a real person. You may be a Jew biologically, but whether you are from the seed of Abraham is questionable at best.
What "system" in Deuteronomy? Pronouns are difficult to work with. Are you referring to a passage that I often like to quote -- Deuternomy 17:8-13, where God establishes the authority of the Oral Torah via the Judges and Levites.

Remember that it is God himself who does this. You cannot say that it is flawed without saying that God himself is flawed.

Some of your speech is strange sounding, and I'm wondering if English is your second language -- not a problem if it is, I just need to know so that I can be more forgiving about it. You say "While the Prophets are above them, and judges of the Prophets is the Elijah." This makes no sense in English. The prophets, the judges, and the king are all equal branches of the Israelite government -- its the oldest division of power that I know of. The judges are not "of" the Prophets, etc. And there is no such thing as "the" Elijah. Elijah is the name of a person, one of many prophets who came later.

No, the Prophet Malachi is NOT like Moses. It is written "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face." Deuteronomy 34:10 All the other prophets only knew God through dreams and visions. Joshua was extra special though, because he completed the task that Moses could not--bringing the People into the Land of Canaan.

I am halakhically (lawfully) a Jew. That is the only kind of Jew that matters.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
Erm, why really try hard on this forum not to insult one another. It can be very hard at times, because often one person will test another's patience, either because their logic is poor, or because they just aren't getting a point despite careful explanation over and over. But we do our best not to engage in these ad hominem attacks.

Attack the argument, or the point. Do not attack the person. Thanks.


What "system" in Deuteronomy? Pronouns are difficult to work with. Are you referring to a passage that I often like to quote -- Deuternomy 17:8-13, where God establishes the authority of the Oral Torah via the Judges and Levites.

Remember that it is God himself who does this. You cannot say that it is flawed without saying that God himself is flawed.

Some of your speech is strange sounding, and I'm wondering if English is your second language -- not a problem if it is, I just need to know so that I can be more forgiving about it. You say "While the Prophets are above them, and judges of the Prophets is the Elijah." This makes no sense in English. The prophets, the judges, and the king are all equal branches of the Israelite government -- its the oldest division of power that I know of. The judges are not "of" the Prophets, etc. And there is no such thing as "the" Elijah. Elijah is the name of a person, one of many prophets who came later.

No, the Prophet Malachi is NOT like Moses. It is written "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face." Deuteronomy 34:10 All the other prophets only knew God through dreams and visions. Joshua was extra special though, because he completed the task that Moses could not--bringing the People into the Land of Canaan.

I am halakhically (lawfully) a Jew. That is the only kind of Jew that matters.

I have not attacked you. I have seen by your own words that you are far from the knowledge of GOD.

The Judges are the Great Moses and the Prophets. This the kingdom authority. The system of levites was pointing to the ministries of the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel; which are sent ones, and Prophets. The Judges are the three Elijah, who are the judges of Prophets. There is the minor Prophets, which was determined by the level of ability the person had to receive messages from GOD, decipher and assimilate them, and interpret to the people. The Message of GOD is preached by the Spirit of Prophecy. Therefore, the messages from GOD comes by the mouth of the Prophets. A Prophet is a person who was born with the abiility in them to hear from The Most Holy Spirit of GOD directly inaudibly, decode the message that was given in code, and then interpret and dispense to the people. Minor Prophets have a small measure of the Spirit of Prophecy. Then there are Major Prophets. Major Prophets have the Spirit of Prophecy in larger measure. Then there is the Elijah. The Three Elijah are the Prophets of the highest order. They are the judges of the messages of the Prophets as they have the Spirit of Prophecy in full. Meaning that they are the ones, the only ones that can receive, decode, interpret and dispense Revelations from GOD in their 100% accurate state. Moses is not a Prophet. Moses is a sent one, but he doesn't have the ability to hear from GOD inaudibly which is why the GOD came to see him in person. Moses is under the tabernacle of the Law, Elijah is under the tabernacle of the Prophet. The Prophet is above the Law.

I am not saying GOD is flawed ... GOD forbid. I am saying that Moses did not get the messages 100% accurate. Was it GOD that said it, or Moses saying this is what GOD said? The Levites are the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel, the Melchizadek are the Prophets. A rabbi born f Levi does not have any authority, does not have any ability spiritually, is not led by GOD, cannot interpret the messages accurately, is not a Prophet, or a patriarch, and therefore is not a levite, or a judge. It doesn't matter what you were taught or forced to learn, it is not right. And you will only realise that later.

Lawfully by which law? The Jew is a child of the kingdom that GOD sent their Spirit Being into th womb of their biological mother to pick up a physical body and enter into this planet. A child of the kingdom is a Jew. A Jew is not neccessarily a child of the kingdom. Tares were born in Israel, and though they wear physical body and were born Jews, they are not Jews.

I didnt say Malachi is Moses. I said that Malachi was given a message by GOD and it was reminding the people what Moses said on Mt Horeb, which reveals that Malachi is speaking of the same person as Moses.

Truly, you can say you are a Jew all you want. You will discover if you are when you depart from your physical body and enter into the ghost world. There you will see all that i said is true, or you will know why you couldn't understand it. This is not an attack, but a declaration of this reality.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I have not attacked you. I have seen by your own words that you are far from the knowledge of GOD.
AGAIN, this statement is directed at me, rather than at something I have said. Please stop.

The Judges are the Great Moses and the Prophets. This the kingdom authority. The system of levites was pointing to the ministries of the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel; which are sent ones, and Prophets. The Judges are the three Elijah, who are the judges of Prophets.
AGAIN, this makes no sense. I asked you if English was your first language. I must also ask you if you are actually reading a standard Bible, or some other book. Because this doesn't look like anything even close to what the Bible says. To be really honest, it looks just plain weird, and I'm very worried about you, because if this is what your church is teaching you, you are in a dangerous place.


A rabbi born f Levi does not have any authority, does not have any ability spiritually, is not led by GOD, cannot interpret the messages accurately,
Deuteronomy 17:8-13
ח כִּי יִפָּלֵא מִמְּךָ דָבָר לַמִּשְׁפָּט, בֵּין-דָּם לְדָם בֵּין-דִּין לְדִין וּבֵין נֶגַע לָנֶגַע--דִּבְרֵי רִיבֹת, בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ: וְקַמְתָּ וְעָלִיתָ--אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בּוֹ. 8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
ט וּבָאתָ, אֶל-הַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם, וְאֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם; וְדָרַשְׁתָּ וְהִגִּידוּ לְךָ, אֵת דְּבַר הַמִּשְׁפָּט. 9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
י וְעָשִׂיתָ, עַל-פִּי הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ, מִן-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה; וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת, כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ. 10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
יא עַל-פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ, וְעַל-הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר-יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ--תַּעֲשֶׂה: לֹא תָסוּר, מִן-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יַגִּידוּ לְךָ--יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל. 11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
יב וְהָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר-יַעֲשֶׂה בְזָדוֹן, לְבִלְתִּי שְׁמֹעַ אֶל-הַכֹּהֵן הָעֹמֵד לְשָׁרֶת שָׁם אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אוֹ, אֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט--וּמֵת הָאִישׁ הַהוּא, וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל. 12 And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.
יג וְכָל-הָעָם, יִשְׁמְעוּ וְיִרָאוּ; וְלֹא יְזִידוּן, עוֹד. {ס} 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously. {S}

Lawfully by which law? The Jew is a child of the kingdom that GOD
According to Jewish law, which is the written Torah and the oral Torah. A Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or a lawful convert. Your Jesus believers are neither.

I didnt say Malachi is Moses.
Neither did I, so why are you bringing it up? Are you having a hard time understanding me? Again, some evidence that English may be giving you difficulties? We are having extreme difficulties having a productive conversation. Please tell me what is going on.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
In that, I share with Rabbi Shaul.
Here, I recommend:
Just something for you to mull over during your Jesusian and Paulian seder. Then get back to me and tell me whether Paul is still your Gedol Hador (I assume you know what that means)?
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
AGAIN, this statement is directed at me, rather than at something I have said. Please stop.

AGAIN, this makes no sense. I asked you if English was your first language. I must also ask you if you are actually reading a standard Bible, or some other book. Because this doesn't look like anything even close to what the Bible says. To be really honest, it looks just plain weird, and I'm very worried about you, because if this is what your church is teaching you, you are in a dangerous place.



Deuteronomy 17:8-13
ח כִּי יִפָּלֵא מִמְּךָ דָבָר לַמִּשְׁפָּט, בֵּין-דָּם לְדָם בֵּין-דִּין לְדִין וּבֵין נֶגַע לָנֶגַע--דִּבְרֵי רִיבֹת, בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ: וְקַמְתָּ וְעָלִיתָ--אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בּוֹ. 8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
ט וּבָאתָ, אֶל-הַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם, וְאֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם; וְדָרַשְׁתָּ וְהִגִּידוּ לְךָ, אֵת דְּבַר הַמִּשְׁפָּט. 9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
י וְעָשִׂיתָ, עַל-פִּי הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ, מִן-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה; וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת, כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ. 10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
יא עַל-פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ, וְעַל-הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר-יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ--תַּעֲשֶׂה: לֹא תָסוּר, מִן-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יַגִּידוּ לְךָ--יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל. 11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
יב וְהָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר-יַעֲשֶׂה בְזָדוֹן, לְבִלְתִּי שְׁמֹעַ אֶל-הַכֹּהֵן הָעֹמֵד לְשָׁרֶת שָׁם אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אוֹ, אֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט--וּמֵת הָאִישׁ הַהוּא, וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל. 12 And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.
יג וְכָל-הָעָם, יִשְׁמְעוּ וְיִרָאוּ; וְלֹא יְזִידוּן, עוֹד. {ס} 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously. {S}

According to Jewish law, which is the written Torah and the oral Torah. A Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or a lawful convert. Your Jesus believers are neither.

Neither did I, so why are you bringing it up? Are you having a hard time understanding me? Again, some evidence that English may be giving you difficulties? We are having extreme difficulties having a productive conversation. Please tell me what is going on.

Its impossible to communicate with someone who is not a child of the kingdom about kingdom matters. Hear me clearly. I am not a believer, i am a knower of my GOD, and I have received the ambassador of my kingdom, who was come as Prophesied to lead me into all truth. If it was the bible in its current state to do it, then it would have been done already. If Moses was the last, and had the whole message, there is no need for GOD to send anyone else. These are Revelations I have shared that with you, albeit undeservingly. Thus, either you are right, or I am right. We cannot be both right. The Judgement seat is the Law and the Prophets. This is not debateable. You may disagree, and you can thats fine. As i said earlier, i am not seeking to convert any. I am running my race. You can cotinue to wander the willderness as you have been your entire life. This is coded. My Speech is strange because i have coded what i am saying. Why? Because a child of the kingdom, a seeking child of the kingdom will be able to understand. I do this so that the things I say cannot be well understood by those that did not seek. Thus: It is not given to you know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to them it is given, and expected that they should hear the trumpet, and come out of her.

I will not debate this any further.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So...you know about five rabbis, at best, I take it?
Have you ever listened to Rabbi Tovia Singer? He only uses the verses. If asked about the Talmud, he'll talk Talmud. But that's something else. Anyway, you must have heard him, because you once made an odd claim about him here on RF and when I asked you to provide evidence for that claim, you never replied.


Yes, others read what I write.

But when I refer to non-Jews, I vote to use a traditional term. I'm sure you've gone through at least some of the Shulchan Aruch. You must be aware that Rabbi Karo used that term to refer to non-Jews. אינו-יהודי. That's about 500 years ago. I prefer a good old traditional term as opposed to a meaningless word invented to create more hateful barriers between mankind. I'm sure you're aware that the term "gentile" carries as much negative baggage as "goy" does. While "goy" simply means "nation", and is a term used to refer to both the Nation of Yisrael and other nations, as Christians twisted the word to mean something negative, it fell out of positive use. I never see Christians coming and saying "I'm a proud gentile". It'll only be "I'm a proud Christian" or "I'm actually a Jew grafted onto the branch of Israel" or something like that. Gentile is a negative word, and I find that when the term is used, the connotation is that the person who used the term is peering down their nose at "the lowly gentiles".


I can extol stuff about "the "word"" alright, but I don't think you'll be happy to hear what I have to say about him.

I met with Tovia Singer for about 4 1/2 hours, in person one day, in Manhattan, not long after my conversion. We discussed many verses where he gave false interpretations. We parted as friends and hugged one another, although occasionally I send him an e-mail to rebuke a lie he's posted online.

My Chasidic friends sin like everyone else, having a Torah at home and "another Torah" when on the road. They know if they win back my soul, even with lies, they are doing a mitzvot. They are willing to stretch truth in the name of bringing back an errant one such as I.

I don't peer down my nose at Gentiles. I live alongside them in Christian fellowship and discipleship. They're lack some of our blessings but . . . :)
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I met with Tovia Singer for about 4 1/2 hours, in person one day, in Manhattan, not long after my conversion. We discussed many verses where he gave false interpretations. We parted as friends and hugged one another, although occasionally I send him an e-mail to rebuke a lie he's posted online.

My Chasidic friends sin like everyone else, having a Torah at home and "another Torah" when on the road. They know if they win back my soul, even with lies, they are doing a mitzvot. They are willing to stretch truth in the name of bringing back an errant one such as I.

I don't peer down my nose at Gentiles. I live alongside them in Christian fellowship and discipleship. They're lack some of our blessings but . . . :)
This sounds way more like downtalk to non-Jews than anything Harel's ever posted as you would have us believe. Not to mention I think your view of Jews is also pretty abhorrent.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
We discussed many verses where he gave false interpretations. We parted as friends and hugged one another, although occasionally I send him an e-mail to rebuke a lie he's posted online.
I suppose we'll never know what went on there because you've never shared exact details of what he stated. Oh well.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I had a feeling you would answer that way. Thanks for providing it.



My Greek is horrible. I would never want to learn Greek. I don't have a use for it. Especially Koine Greek. It has no use and holds no weight here. See how easy that was?



I don't understand any Greek, including the letters because where I live here in Jerusalem Greek is literally a foreign language. You won't find any Jews in this side of Jerusalem reading anything in Greek. We stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic and leave the Greek to the Christians in Jerusalem who are part of the Greek Orthodox Church.

Help me understand.

Basically Greek-less, you are thus eminently qualified to insist on Hebrew work only for understanding Tanakh, but also feel free to tell ME why the NT is wrong, even though I'm working on its Tanakh halakhah and etc. from my Greek knowledge.

Double standard on your part. We're done here.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
IF, those of us who don't buy into the NT are as elitist as you "claim" then all the better that we are not a part of your religion. Think about about far down we would bring it and how bothersome we would be for you. It is better for all that we keep to our side of things. Besides, you can prove us wrong by simply giving us a phone call or SMS when you say your guy is showing up. ;)

BTW, are you also a part of the "ark of jesus ministries international?" I have been told that that is the only way to get Jesus correctly. If you are not a part of it you may need to check your sources with them.

I didn't say rejecting the NT makes you elitist, I said posting on a forum where most readers are English only and insisting on Hebrew work lies somewhere between elitism and the usual chicanery/sophistry my unsaved Jewish brothers use to twist truth when discussing Christianity.

Is it okay if we look at Soncino Press English translations, then, or other translations done EXCLUSIVELY by non-Christian Jews, to show that Yeshua is King, Messiah and God?

NOT with you, because you have a double standard (again).
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
A light burden doesn't magnify the law.

I guess Isaiah wasn't talking about your messiah.

Huh?

Some person has "magnify the Law" in Tanakh as "add commandments to save us by still more mitzvot--aka traditional Judaism".

TANAKH has a Messiah that gives us light and freedom, just as Jesus said, "my burden is light [salvation by trust, not mitzvot".

TANAKH yet again is pointing to JESUS as MESSIAH.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yeah, Jesus was always quoting talmud. I can see why that would bother you. Maybe you should be a Karaite.

Hi -- nice to meet you. I relax on shabbat and I feel the love of God every day! Of course, I balance my love for God (and his for me) with my fear of him because fear is textually demanded of me as well.

Huh? Jesus and Paul discussed/debated both Talmud and Tanakh with Jewish leaders/religious leaders.

Yes, you are right, fear/reverence for God is in both testaments. I enjoy Shabbat rest AND show fear of God by mitzvot, but I'm not going to Heaven by being a good person who does mitzvot.

Your remarks (as always) seem to miss the millions of blood sacrifices in the Tabernacle and Temples!
 
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