Would Western countries allow Muslims to have their own judiciary system?

Estro Felino · Mar 23, 2021

Lex eadem omnibus.
Here Canon Law (the RCC law) stopped having juridical value in 1870.
I do believe each religion has the sacred right to have their own rules and codes (and courts) ..but the secular law of the Republic cannot give these religious courts a juridical value. An automatic executory value.
Since not even the Canon law courts (Sacra Rota) have them.

Altfish · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*

In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?

For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

I fear it is a slippery slope if you start going down the road of letting religions have their own courts.
Would Rastafarian courts be able to throw out drug offences?
Evangelical Christians ban abortion unilaterally>
Jews set up eruvs throughout the land?

No, if you live in a country there should be one set of laws that apply to everyone.

Shakeel · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
girls must attend schools including swimming lessons

There is no reason whatsoever to force someone to take swimming lessons. Don't be ridiculous. Nor should anyone be forced to go to public schools. It is a family's own business if they have their kids taught at home or at school.

Shakeel · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
that wasn't my point, Harel.
It would be discrimination against the girls if the parents would be allowed to ban their girls from attending swimming classes at school.

You're assuming the girls are victims of their parents with regard to religion. You don't understand that the girls follow the dress of modesty early on and going nude with their schoolmates would be dislikable to them. Therefore, forcing them to do that would be abusive.

Revoltingest · Mar 23, 2021

Altfish said:
I fear it is a slippery slope if you start going down the road of letting religions have their own courts.
Would Rastafarian courts be able to throw out drug offences?
Evangelical Christians ban abortion unilaterally>
Jews set up eruvs throughout the land?

No, if you live in a country there should be one set of laws that apply to everyone.

Alternative religious courts can be treated like private
arbitration agreements. If both parties agree to use the
alternative, & to abide by the ruling, then there's no conflict
with governmental courts. (Of course, the alternatives must
operate within the country's laws.)

Altfish · Mar 23, 2021

Revoltingest said:
Alternative religious courts can be treated like private
arbitration agreements. If both parties agree to use the
alternative, & to abide by the ruling, then there's no conflict
with governmental courts. (Of course, the alternatives must
operate within the country's laws.)

I fear the power of the religious' judge's to 'force' their flock into accepting the religious courts.

Revoltingest · Mar 23, 2021

Altfish said:
I fear the power of the religious' judge's to 'force' their flock into accepting the religious courts.

The don't have the legal power to force this.
However, religion is often about having great influence
over the flock, & getting them to do things that seem
dysfunctional. This would be no change.

Altfish · Mar 23, 2021

Revoltingest said:
The don't have the legal power to force this.
However, religion is often about having great influence
over the flock, & getting them to do things that seem
dysfunctional. This would be no change.

No, they don't BUT as you indicate in the rest of your post "..great influence over the flock, & getting them to do things that seem dysfunctional."
So, to get them to accept the religious court against their best interests is not beyond possible.

firedragon · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*

In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?

For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

1. Which Shariah says "chop off part of the body" and whats the nitty-gritty of it?
2. Which Shariah says FGM is mandatory?
3. Which Shariah says "Girls should not attend school", or/and say "Girls should not go for swimming lessons"?
4. Why should bans on veils stop any of this?
5. Which Shariah says "women dont have equal opportunity"?
6. Which Shariah mandates public corporal punishment for minors? And why should not that happen? Based on what study?

Also one more question.

Who wanted all of these things in your country?

Please dont ask questions like "so you believe in FGM or So you dont believe in FGM" because the questions were asked based on your own statements in the OP. Thus, it is your responsibility to respond to this.

Estro Felino · Mar 23, 2021

Revoltingest said:
Alternative religious courts can be treated like private
arbitration agreements. If both parties agree to use the
alternative, & to abide by the ruling, then there's no conflict
with governmental courts. (Of course, the alternatives must
operate within the country's laws.)

Surely. But a State Court will not give executory value to these judgments.
You will always need a State Court that acknowledges the verdicts...and by ratifying them it makes them enforceable.

Brickjectivity · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*

In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?

For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

In USA we (many of us) tend to question whether Islam is a religion or a political system. There is an article about this in Christianity Today which claims it should be considered a religion and to do otherwise threatens religious liberty for all religions here.
When Islam Is Not a Religion in America

Its an article by a lawyer involved in some religious cases such as a Hobby Lobby case. It mentions some evangelicals who are supporting religious liberty here for Muslims.

As for me, I'm not convinced that this question (whether Islam is an ideological system versus a religion) threatens religious liberty; but I'm not a lawyer. Due to the language and difficulty of law I have to yield to lawyers ultimately on this question. In addition to general religious liberty they are concerned about 'Religious arbitration' being threatened. This affects Jews and Orthodox Catholic ministries as well as Muslim ones. I don't understand why this matters. We have a decent common law here, and its not as if we go around stealing hats. On the other hand if outlawing religious arbitration impinges on general religious liberty then it could be a problem, since religious liberty is related to other liberties such as free speech and pursuit of happiness.

Bottom line, we have had religious liberty here for a long time. It has served better than no religious liberty. I'm not inclined to disturb it. I do have difficulty seeing sharia as compatible. This tests the whole concept.

Stephen Blanton says in his online FAQ: "Islam gives Muslims the ability, authority and encouragement to judge others. Most Muslims reside in communities with other Muslims, where they judge one another’s compliance with Islamic rules and moral purity. Slackers are often accused of blasphemy or apostasy, for which the penalty is death. Sunni and Shiite Muslims have always viewed one another as apostates, and they have been slaughtering one another since the 7th century." (link here) Is that something which could happen here? I don't know. I think its easy to understand why westerners are concerned.

Sirona · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

Foreign law is only applied in Germany if one of the parties involved is a foreigner. There are many immigrants who don't have a German nationality. For them, foreign law can be applied. However, under German law it is certainly possible to write shariah-like conditions in contracts between private parties, to which both parties must agree.

Heyo · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*

I find that highly problematic. One of the most important tenets of the law is that it's equal for everyone. Even in the case of non German citizens, the court should excuse itself and defer the parties to a foreign court. A German court can't rule foreign law.

In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.

Nope. Human rights are unalienable. I.e. you can't give them up, sell them or lose them through a court ruling.

As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?

For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

What about males?
I think the exception for male circumcision is a stain in German law. It is a grave inequality.

Heyo · Mar 23, 2021

Shakeel said:
There is no reason whatsoever to force someone to take swimming lessons. Don't be ridiculous. Nor should anyone be forced to go to public schools. It is a family's own business if they have their kids taught at home or at school.

There's a very good reason: it's the law, at least in Germany. We recently had a problem with a fundamentalist religious group (12 tribes). They eventually emigrated to Austria. That option is always open.

firedragon · Mar 23, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
In USA we (many of us) tend to question whether Islam is a religion or a political system. There is an article about this in Christianity Today which claims it should be considered a religion and to do otherwise threatens religious liberty for all religions here.
When Islam Is Not a Religion in America

Its an article by a lawyer involved in some religious cases such as a Hobby Lobby case. It mentions some evangelicals who are supporting religious liberty here for Muslims.

As for me, I'm not convinced that this question (whether Islam is an ideological system versus a religion) threatens religious liberty; but I'm not a lawyer. Due to the language and difficulty of law I have to yield to lawyers ultimately on this question. In addition to general religious liberty they are concerned about 'Religious arbitration' being threatened. This affects Jews and Orthodox Catholic ministries as well as Muslim ones. I don't understand why this matters. We have a decent common law here, and its not as if we go around stealing hats. On the other hand if outlawing religious arbitration impinges on general religious liberty then it could be a problem, since religious liberty is related to other liberties such as free speech and pursuit of happiness.

Bottom line, we have had religious liberty here for a long time. It has served better than no religious liberty. I'm not inclined to disturb it. I do have difficulty seeing sharia as compatible. This tests the whole concept.

Stephen Blanton says in his online FAQ: "Islam gives Muslims the ability, authority and encouragement to judge others. Most Muslims reside in communities with other Muslims, where they judge one another’s compliance with Islamic rules and moral purity. Slackers are often accused of blasphemy or apostasy, for which the penalty is death. Sunni and Shiite Muslims have always viewed one another as apostates, and they have been slaughtering one another since the 7th century." (link here) Is that something which could happen here? I don't know. I think its easy to understand why westerners are concerned.

You think Stephen Blanton is right? On what basis? Whats the analysis you have made?

thomas t · Mar 23, 2021

Israel Khan said:
There are SO many cases proving that to be true though.... there are loads of cases in my country alone where teachers prey on schoolgirls, raping them, lusting after them and trading higher grades for sex in return.

which is definitely a serioius problem. These teaches need to be brought to justice. In court.

Israel Khan said:
The only problem here

the other problem here is that some Muslim societies expect girls to protect themselves, it seems.... otherwise:
Quran (33:59) - "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed." This is from the Noble Quran. The word 'annoyed' is yu'dhayna, which actually means 'harmed' or 'hurt' elsewhere in the same sura. How would a woman be 'harmed' for not covering herself? Let's just say that Yusuf Ali translates it as 'molested' - as in a woman could bring sexual abuse on herself if she is not properly covered.

See Islam and Veils

So, this is the classic pattern of victim blaming. Once there is a rape and the girl was not veiled (enough)... she "brought sexual abuse on herself".

Expecting potential victims to protect themselves is the first step towards victim blaming, I think. Only if the expectation is placed on the girls... victim blaming besomes possible. If there were no expectations met by the victims, there wouldn't be anything the victims could be blamed for in the eyes of the public, I think.

Revoltingest · Mar 23, 2021

Altfish said:
No, they don't BUT as you indicate in the rest of your post "..great influence over the flock, & getting them to do things that seem dysfunctional."
So, to get them to accept the religious court against their best interests is not beyond possible.

I agree.
Alas, we have this religious freedom thingie here, &
people have the right to be influenced to agree to
things (a heathen might find) not in their best interest.
I find this workable.

firedragon · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
the other problem here is that some Muslim societies expect girls to protect themselves, it seems.... otherwise:
Quran (33:59) - "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed." This is from the Noble Quran. The word 'annoyed' is yu'dhayna, which actually means 'harmed' or 'hurt' elsewhere in the same sura. How would a woman be 'harmed' for not covering herself? Let's just say that Yusuf Ali translates it as 'molested' - as in a woman could bring sexual abuse on herself if she is not properly covered.

See Islam and Veils

So, this is the classic pattern of victim blaming. Once there is a rape and the girl was not veiled (enough)... she "brought sexual abuse on herself".

Its absolutely so shameful to be so absolutely uneducated about a religion or anything for that matter and spread absolute bogus around like you are the master of things. Unbelievable.

You cut and paste from an anti islamic website and pretend you are a scholar? Dont you have any shame?

What translation is this you cut and pasted with such bogus interpolations?

Ill tell you what? Shameless people like you should be responded to with just shameless cut and pastes like this. Here you go. Ill give you the Bible. This is a game that can be played with cut and paste artists like you.

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abomile deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 )

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 )

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 )

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 )

firedragon · Mar 23, 2021

A lot of bogus pseudo scholars of Islam here cutting and pasting from Anti Islamic websites, and nonsensically ignorant pseudo scholars. Its a shameful show of ignorant ranting. Mindnumbingly ignorant.

Samael_Khan · Mar 23, 2021

thomas t said:
which is definitely a serioius problem. These teaches need to be brought to justice. In court.

the other problem here is that some Muslim societies expect girls to protect themselves, it seems.... otherwise:
Quran (33:59) - "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed." This is from the Noble Quran. The word 'annoyed' is yu'dhayna, which actually means 'harmed' or 'hurt' elsewhere in the same sura. How would a woman be 'harmed' for not covering herself? Let's just say that Yusuf Ali translates it as 'molested' - as in a woman could bring sexual abuse on herself if she is not properly covered.

See Islam and Veils

So, this is the classic pattern of victim blaming. Once there is a rape and the girl was not veiled (enough)... she "brought sexual abuse on herself".

Expecting potential victims to protect themselves is the first step towards victim blaming, I think. Only if the expectation is placed on the girls... victim blaming besomes possible. If there were no expectations met by the victims, there wouldn't be anything the victims could be blamed for in the eyes of the public, I think.

Oh. I see your point here. Sorry I didn't fully grasp the gravity of your point. That would be victim blaming and the veil, in the context that you use it, would be for the purpose of aiding that mentality.

Would Western countries allow Muslims to have their own judiciary system?

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