• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Messiah

1213

Well-Known Member
...
One more thing which I think you will find fascinating as I did � Rabbi Kanievsky writes that the messiah � whoever he might be � is living among us today and is aware that he is the messiah, just that he can�t reveal his true identity until such time that G-d wills it! Wow! May we all merit to see that day!

It would be nice to know why he believes so. And, I think all should know that Jesus said in the Bible:

If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:27

That is why, when Jesus the Messiah comes back, he is not hiding.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
It would be nice to know why he believes so. And, I think all should know that Jesus said in the Bible:

If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:27

That is why, when Jesus the Messiah comes back, he is not hiding.
Well I guess every religion has its own definition of what a messiah is. As for me I like to think outside the box and wonder what a messiah could mean to me and my reality
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be nice to know why he believes so.
This might clarify things:
Rabbi Kanievsky is echoing a story from the Talmud in which one of the sages meets the prophet Elijah and asks him where the Mashiach is. Elijah directs him to the gates of Rome, where a band of beggars are sitting. He explains to him how to identify the Mashiach from among them. The sage then asks him: When are you coming? The Mashiach answered: Today! This excited the sage. The next day came, and nothing happened. So he went back to the Mashiach and asked him: What gives? The Mashiach replied: I can only go and bring the redemption when God tells me I can. But I am ready to do this every day.

Rabbi Kanievsky is also echoing an idea expressed by many sages over the millennia, that in every generation there's a person capable of being the Mashiach, a person with the right potential. But the circumstances still haven't been ideal enough for this individual bring about the redemption.

Thus, Rabbi Kanievsky was not talking about, God-forbid, Jesus, but about two deep ideas about the real Jewish Mashiach. He was not talking about an immortal messianic individual, but of the concept of the Mashiach itself as it manifests through the generations.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Well I guess every religion has its own definition of what a messiah is.
Not every religion has a messiah concept. It's, afaik, a fundamentally Jewish concept the way we know it, except maybe the Saoshyant.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Who here believes that the messiah was the only living being who god graciously bestowed the gift upon to have power over death so we may all have everlasting life?

Jesus was stabbed in the abdomen, had a crown of thorns, and was nailed (or possibly tied) to a cross, with instructions to all not to feed, water, or tend him. Jesus had been forced to carry his own cross. Jesus asked God "why hath thou forsaken me?" It is obvious that God had taken away the powers of Jesus, so he couldn't help himself.

Logically, you'd think that God would be angry at all of mankind for killing his only son. Logically, Jesus should hate humans and want to get revenge. Could it be that Matthew (et al) got the wrong idea about the concept of eternal life? Maybe Jesus meant that you will roast in hell for all eternity for doing this to him?

Eternal hell doesn't necessarily mean eternal life in heaven.

With all of the trials and tribulations on humans in the world, you'd think that God was not on our side.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why did God make a rule that someone had to die for sin?

We all die for our own sins. This started with the first humans. If people were going to sin then God could not allow them to live forever without that problem being fixed.
A death is a just way to buy back all those dead people and paying for the all those sins at the same time. It had to be the death of someone who was sinless however or that person would be just dying for their own sins, and it had to be someone God chose whose worth would pay the price.
Jesus satisfied these things and by His death, through faith in Him our sins are forgiven. We become joined spiritually to Jesus and God sees us as having died with Jesus and in Jesus we have the eternal resurrection life that Jesus has.
Our spirits are said to be born again by the Spirit of God and God's Spirit lives in us and changes us to be like Jesus. We still die physically but when resurrected we are given a body that can be controlled by our spirit, a spiritual body.
In this life our body and mind want to do just what they want to do and that is just to gratify themselves. That is why a new body is needed.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
We all die for our own sins. This started with the first humans. If people were going to sin then God could not allow them to live forever without that problem being fixed.
A death is a just way to buy back all those dead people and paying for the all those sins at the same time. It had to be the death of someone who was sinless however or that person would be just dying for their own sins, and it had to be someone God chose whose worth would pay the price.
Jesus satisfied these things and by His death, through faith in Him our sins are forgiven. We become joined spiritually to Jesus and God sees us as having died with Jesus and in Jesus we have the eternal resurrection life that Jesus has.
Our spirits are said to be born again by the Spirit of God and God's Spirit lives in us and changes us to be like Jesus. We still die physically but when resurrected we are given a body that can be controlled by our spirit, a spiritual body.
In this life our body and mind want to do just what they want to do and that is just to gratify themselves. That is why a new body is needed.

Why did God make a rule that we had to die because we sin?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Who here believes that the messiah was the only living being who god graciously bestowed the gift upon to have power over death so we may all have everlasting life?

But I thought the Bible says he did whatever he did with the "finger of God". So it was God, not Jesus.

Also, why would this "power over death" mean all have everlasting life? Isn't it just resurrecting people? Who said that gives "everlasting life"?

Is any of this at least based on the Bible?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why did God make a rule that we had to die because we sin?

I guess it was what was needed. It is as if someone has done something that society does not want them to keep doing. It is either execute them or lock them away. So God could not allow us to live forever and keep doing evil.
Death in reality is the locking of people away until the resurrection, when all will be judged.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I guess it was what was needed. It is as if someone has done something that society does not want them to keep doing. It is either execute them or lock them away. So God could not allow us to live forever and keep doing evil.
Death in reality is the locking of people away until the resurrection, when all will be judged.

Why didn't God make us incorruptible like he is? And don't go down the 'free will' rabbit hole. God has free will and is also incorruptible. Why didn't he make us that way too?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
This might clarify things:

Interesting story, thank you. The “He was not talking about an immortal messianic individual, but of the concept of the Mashiach itself as it manifests through the generations”, part is a problem to me, because it doesn’t seem to be based on scriptures in the Bible. The whole idea of future saving Messiah seems to be missing from the Tanakh, if not interpreted in controversial way.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting story, thank you. The “He was not talking about an immortal messianic individual, but of the concept of the Mashiach itself as it manifests through the generations”, part is a problem to me, because it doesn’t seem to be based on scriptures in the Bible. The whole idea of future saving Messiah seems to be missing from the Tanakh, if not interpreted in controversial way.
I don't find in Tanach a description of an immortal Mashiach.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
........ God has free will and is also incorruptible. Why didn't he make us that way too?

To me, God did create man as 'Very Good'.
Did God himself choose to remain incorruptible ____________
If God has free-will options then it would be a choice.
Since God forces No one to love or obey Him, then the only option is that man (Adam) could only corrupt himself by choice.
Since we are corrupted by father Adam's deliberate choice we inherited his leanings towards/ wrongdoing.
Since we are innocent of what Adam did is why God sent Jesus to Earth for us to balance the Scales of Justice for us.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Who here believes that the messiah was the only living being who god graciously bestowed the gift upon to have power over death so we may all have everlasting life?

I find at John 5:26 that God gave to Jesus to have life in himself.
Thus, Jesus was given the Resurrection Power - Revelation 1:18
ALL the resurrections that Jesus performed were happy-and-healthy physical resurrections.
What a person does ' after ' they are resurrected will determine everlasting life or not.
This is why Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.
 
Top