In the Book of Revelation, God is not the Lamb, and the Lamb is not God.

LightofTruth · Mar 20, 2021

Let's say God has the power to raise the dead. If those who are to be raised from the dead is based on judgment, and God commits all judgement to the son, then the power to raise the dead is based on the judgment of the son and therefore the son raises whosoever he wills. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

ElishaElijah · Mar 20, 2021

Deeje said:
Of course....they were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have him put to death...it was they who accused him of claiming to be God.....his response was that he only ever claimed to be God’s son.

“For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:16-23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
John 5:16-23 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been work | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Trailblazer · Mar 20, 2021

LightofTruth said:
Jesus was of the same nature as the rest of man. And Paul says that "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing". The flesh that Jesus had was sinful flesh and therefore his nature was not divine or immortal. he had to overcome the flesh with its desires. Which he did.

I believe that Jesus had a human nature but He also has a spiritual nature. Because Jesus was human He had to endure everything that humans endure, like hunger, thirst, exhaustion, heat and cold; but because He also has a spiritual nature he was not subject to sin, like the rest of us.

The following passage describes what I believe about the twofold nature of Jesus.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

LightofTruth · Mar 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that Jesus had a human nature but He also has a spiritual nature. Because Jesus was human He had to endure everything that humans endure, like hunger, thirst, exhaustion, heat and cold; but because He also has a spiritual nature he was not subject to sin, like the rest of us.

He was subject to temptation as we are. And everyone is tempted by having desires of the flesh which is also referred to as lust of the flesh. And when that lust has conceived it brings forth sin.

Trailblazer said:
The following passage describes what I believe about the twofold nature of Jesus.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

I believe Jesus was given a limitless measure of God's spirit. "The spirit of Yahweh is upon me" he said Isa 11

Deeje · Mar 20, 2021

LightofTruth said:
My understanding differs from JW's.

Firstly, I believe the Father has a body. And that no man has seen His face at any time.

The Bible clearly says that “God is a spirit”, (John 4:24) so his body is nothing that is visible to man. Yet he told Moses....”no man may see me and yet live”. Even a physical presentation given to Moses at his request, needed God to protect him in the crevice of a rock.

It stands to reason that if we would be physically damaged by the various things of God’s creation, then no mere human could stand in his presence. His powerful presence would overcome our relatively weak mortal, physical body. Whatever 'body' God has...it is not like our own.

LightofTruth said:
I believe Jesus came into existence by being born of a woman. And he was of the same nature as all the rest of humanity. Mortal man. Under death's dominion.

The man Jesus did come into existence by being born of a woman, but he existed in heaven before coming into this world to fulfill his mission....as he told the Jews, he was in existence before Abraham was born. (John 6:62-63; John 17:4-5)

The pre-human Jesus was God’s “only begotten son” from the beginning and his ‘life’ was transferred to the womb of a Jewish virgin because he had to be born as a son of God, not as a son of sinner, Adam. The whole reason why he gave his life was because only an equivalent of Adam could redeem mankind. If Jesus was born with sin in his flesh, the price would have been inadequate. Any human could have acted as the redeemer. Redemption needed an equivalent “like for like”. It was a set price and only a perfect sinless life would pay the ransom to offset the value of the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children.

LightofTruth said:
I believe Michael the archangel represented God in the O.T.. And it was he who appeared to man whenever anyone is said to have seen God, or that God appeared.

Jesus has taken on the same role as Michael, except Jesus has been exalted above all of God's angels in heaven.

Jesus has always been Michael, but none of God’s free willed creatures were immortal. God had the power to destroy those spirit beings should they exercise their free will in an abusive way and rebel against him. Satan was the first to do so, but certainly not the last. Up to a third of the angels joined him in that rebellion......so God had a choice....to eliminate the rebels by using his immense power, or to use the rebellion, which involved his human children as well, to teach a powerful lesson to both, about the value of his Sovereignty over us, which included his protection and blessing. What happened in Eden was about God's Sovereignty...not his power.

On his return to heaven, after successfully completing his mission, his Father granted Jesus/Michael immortality......the power of an indestructible life.....and a “new name” that would indicate his new status. (Revelation 3:12)

The pre-human Jesus, as Michael was “the” Archangel, which means that he has always been unique among the angelic creation. There is only one Archangel. Michael has acted as God’s representative since mankind’s beginning. The Angel that spoke as God’s representative all through Israel’s history was God’s “Logos”....one who spoke God’s words to man. As a man on earth, after his baptism, he continued to be “The Word”, representing his Father in all that he taught. Never once taking credit for any of it.

LightofTruth said:
As a resurrected man, Jesus no longer is under death's dominion and his nature is now immortal. He will never die again. He is a partaker of the divine nature. Just as those who will be raised from the dead to eternal life.

If you are suggesting that a physical body can exist in heaven, then the scriptures will argue with you. God is a spirit being, his son was a spirit being before being transferred to the earth to complete his mission, as a man of flesh and blood, yet he was resurrected as a spirit in order to return to his former life in heaven at God’s right hand. He is no longer a man. Why would he be?

LightofTruth said:
The Satan who was a tempter to Jesus questioned whether Jesus was the son of God. He did not believe Jesus had come in God's name with all authority from God. If he had, he would have worshipped God through Jesus as having represented God.

There is only one satan, but many demons. When satan tempted Jesus, he knew full well who he was and threw temptations at Jesus that were his own undoing.....self-interest in each of those temptations would have derailed Jesus’ whole mission. This is why Jesus said that God’s will had to prevail and not his own.

LightofTruth said:
Jesus was of the same nature as the rest of man. And Paul says that "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing". The flesh that Jesus had was sinful flesh and therefore his nature was not divine or immortal. he had to overcome the flesh with its desires. Which he did.

Jesus was human but not in a body burdened by sin. He was flesh and blood but the same as Adam was when God first created him....he had no defects. He would not have aged or become sick or had a tendency to sin. But as a free willed human he could still have had his loyalties divided by the devil....as was seen in the garden of Eden.

Deeje · Mar 20, 2021

LightofTruth said:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Isn't that interesting!

Thinth I do not speaketh archaic English, I will translate that passage to the language I do speak....
John 5:18-23....
"This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God."

The Jews brought that charge against him because he did not break the Sabbath at all, he broke their rigid version of it. And calling God his Father was not blasphemy because Jesus taught that Jehovah was the "Father" of all of us. (How does the Lord's Prayer begin?)

He continues.....

"19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel."

Jesus was equal with God!

No way is he saying that.

Then Jesus explains how he was equal with God. Read the underlined words.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Or in plain English.....

"21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

The way in which Jesus was equal with God was by the Father working through Jesus. Jesus was seeing the Father do the works through the son. And that is how Jesus was equal with God.

There was never equality.....it is impossible for Jesus, who is a reflection of his superior Father to be his equal.
Jesus is a creation of his Father.....the creation can never be equal to the Creator.

LightofTruth · Mar 20, 2021

Deeje said:
Thinth I do not speaketh archaic English, I will translate that passage to the language I do speak....
John 5:18-23....
"This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God."

The Jews brought that charge against him because he did not break the Sabbath at all, he broke their rigid version of it. And calling God his Father was not blasphemy because Jesus taught that Jehovah was the "Father" of all of us. (How does the Lord's Prayer begin?)

He continues.....

"19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel."

No way is he saying that.

Or in plain English.....

"21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

There was never equality.....it is impossible for Jesus, who is a reflection of his superior Father to be his equal.
Jesus is a creation of his Father.....the creation can never be equal to the Creator.

I happen to like the KJV. It's the Bible I started reading many years ago and I kind of got attached to it. But I also use the other 20 versions I have. I have the NWT too.

Deeje · Mar 20, 2021

LightofTruth said:
Here's a quote from the JW's site:

"But who said that Jesus was making himself equal to God? Not Jesus. He defended himself against this false charge in the very next verse (Joh 5:19): “To this accusation Jesus replied: . . . ‘the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing.’”—JB."

By this, Jesus showed the Jews that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative."

I don't think Jesus was showing that he was not equal with God but that he was equal with Him.

When Jesus says "he can do only what he sees the Father doing." he means that the Father is doing the works, not the son only. If the father is doing the works through the son then that makes the son equal with God. Does it not?

When someone is authorized to act on behalf of another, the representative does not replace the one whose authority is being exercised.
Matthew 28:18....Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."

Who authorized Jesus in these capacities? If there was no authorization, Jesus was not able to do anything of his own volition.

LightofTruth · Mar 20, 2021

Deeje said:
When someone is authorized to act on behalf of another, the representative does not replace the one whose authority is being exercised.
Matthew 28:18....Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."

Who authorized Jesus in these capacities? If there was no authorization, Jesus was not able to do anything of his own volition.

Jesus has been GIVEN all authority in heaven and earth. Sounds like equality with God to me. Cause God has all authority in heaven and earth.

We Never Know · Mar 20, 2021

filthyrottendirty said:
The Book of Revelation is “the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (Yahweh) gave him" (1:1). From the very first verse we are told that Jesus is not God. God is differentiated from Jesus. The God of Jesus Christ gave Jesus Christ this revelation.

In Revelation 1:5-6 Jesus Christ is “the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.” Jesus “loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father…”
The Father is Jesus Christ’s God in the Book of Revelation, just as other Scriptures testify many times (e.g., John 20:17, Rom. 15:6, 2 Cor. 1:3, 11:31, Eph 1:3, 17, 1 Pet. 1:3). Jesus told the Sardis church that their works were not perfect in the site of his God (3:2). Four times in one verse (3:12) Jesus referred to “my God”. This is the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ speaking who is at the right hand of God. That Jesus Christ has a God.
In other words, not only is Jesus Christ distinguished from the Father in the Book of Revelation, he is also distinguished from God.

The Book of Revelation clearly distinguishes between the Almighty God, “Him who sits on the throne” (Revelation 4) and “the Lamb standing, as though it had been slain"(Revelation 5). The two are never confused. The Lamb is not God (who sits on the throne), God is not the Lamb. The God of chapter 4 is worshiped because He is God who created everything. The Lamb of chapter 5 is worshipped not because he is God, but because he was slain and by his blood did ransom men for God (5:10).
We can all agree that “the Lamb, standing as though it had been slain” in the Book of Revelation 5:6 is Jesus the Messiah, who was killed, but then raised from the dead. God, on the other hand, does not die, and is not raised from the dead.

Note how the Lamb is continually differentiated from God, who sits on the throne. That is, God is not the Lamb, and the Lamb is not God:
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”.
– Rev. 5:13
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb”.
– Rev. 6:16
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number…standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
– Rev. 7:9
“…crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
– Rev. 7:10

The same distinction between God, on the one hand, and the Lamb on the other, is made in Revelation 7:17, 14:4, 15:3, 21:22, 21:23, 22:1 and 22:3. In many other places in the Book of Revelation, Jesus Christ and the symbols representing Jesus Christ are differentiated from God (e.g., Rev. 11:15, 12:5).
The last two references to God and the Lamb in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 22:1 and 22:3) contain the phrase “the throne of God and of the Lamb”.

Some might say that this phrase shows that the Lamb is God. But this assumption is wrong for several reasons:
In these verses as well, God is distinguished from the Lamb. Whoever God is, He is not the Lamb. The Lamb is not God, and God is not the Lamb. The Lamb was slain and raised. God is not slain and raised.
This incorrect interpretation ignores all the other references in the Book of Revelation which also differentiate between God and the Lamb, and which state that the Lamb has a God.
The Lamb shares the throne of God because God has granted this to the Lamb: “he shall rule…even as I myself have received power from my Father (Rev. 2:27, 3:21, cf. Matt. 28:18). As a parallel, the LORD God put both David and Solomon on His (God’s) throne. “Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of David his father” (1 Chron. 29:23). But neither David nor Solomon were God just because they were granted by God to rule as God’s representatives on God’s throne. As God’s chosen, anointed kings, David and Solomon were granted to sit on God’s throne. So is the risen Jesus Christ.

It is clear from the Book of Revelation that Jesus Christ, the Lamb who was slain but who now lives, the firstborn from the dead, the beginning of God’s creation, is not God.
You might argue that the deity of Christ was revealed to the apostles gradually or progressively. If that were the case, we should expect to find Jesus clearly presented as God in the Book of Revelation, the last book of the New Testament canon. Yet that is not the case. Instead, the Book of Revelation distinguishes between God and Jesus. Revelation tells us that God is not Jesus and Jesus is not God.

Without reading three pages of posts and going by the OP title...

I offer this....
You are not your father and your father isn't you.
You are part of your father and your father is part of you.

Hence the lamb is not god nor is god the lamb.

In other words god isn't jesus and jesus isn't god but jesus is part of god and god is part of jesus.

Deeje · Mar 20, 2021

LightofTruth said:
I happen to like the KJV. It's the Bible I started reading many years ago and I kind of got attached to it. But I also use the other 20 versions I have. I have the NWT too.

I started my Bible study with the KJV too, but hated the fact that it was difficult to understand clearly what was being said. It is antiquated and past its "best before" date IMO.

Anyone starting out on their spiritual journey doesn't need to have to learn an outdated language to understand the Bible. Some of the readers here are young people who have never read the Bible before....so I believe it would put them off trying to comprehend the Bible's message when all those archaic terms are used....

LightofTruth · Mar 20, 2021

Deeje said:
I started my Bible study with the KJV too, but hated the fact that it was difficult to understand clearly what was being said. It is antiquated and past its "best before" date IMO.

Anyone starting out on their spiritual journey doesn't need to have to learn an outdated language to understand the Bible. Some of the readers here are young people who have never read the Bible before....so I believe it would put them off trying to comprehend the Bible's message when all those archaic terms are used....

I'd recommend using "literal" versions along with Hebrew / Greek interlinear.

Deeje · Mar 20, 2021

LightofTruth said:
I'd recommend using "literal" versions along with Hebrew / Greek interlinear.

I use many resourses....concordances are my favorite. I love the Tanakh for my Hebrew scriptures and Strongs has been good too, for both Hebrew and Greek meanings. But I have not come across a Bible translation as faithful to the original text as the NWT. Every time I have looked up a word that differs slightly from another translation, I look it up and the NWT is right every time.

ElishaElijah · Mar 21, 2021

Deeje said:
Thinth I do not speaketh archaic English, I will translate that passage to the language I do speak....
John 5:18-23....
"This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God."

The Jews brought that charge against him because he did not break the Sabbath at all, he broke their rigid version of it. And calling God his Father was not blasphemy because Jesus taught that Jehovah was the "Father" of all of us. (How does the Lord's Prayer begin?)

He continues.....

"19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel."

No way is he saying that.

Or in plain English.....

"21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

There was never equality.....it is impossible for Jesus, who is a reflection of his superior Father to be his equal.
Jesus is a creation of his Father.....the creation can never be equal to the Creator.

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

LightofTruth · Mar 21, 2021

Deeje said:
The Bible clearly says that “God is a spirit”, (John 4:24) so his body is nothing that is visible to man. Yet he told Moses....”no man may see me and yet live”. Even a physical presentation given to Moses at his request, needed God to protect him in the crevice of a rock.

It stands to reason that if we would be physically damaged by the various things of God’s creation, then no mere human could stand in his presence. His powerful presence would overcome our relatively weak mortal, physical body. Whatever 'body' God has...it is not like our own.

The man Jesus did come into existence by being born of a woman, but he existed in heaven before coming into this world to fulfill his mission....as he told the Jews, he was in existence before Abraham was born. (John 6:62-63; John 17:4-5)

The pre-human Jesus was God’s “only begotten son” from the beginning and his ‘life’ was transferred to the womb of a Jewish virgin because he had to be born as a son of God, not as a son of sinner, Adam. The whole reason why he gave his life was because only an equivalent of Adam could redeem mankind. If Jesus was born with sin in his flesh, the price would have been inadequate. Any human could have acted as the redeemer. Redemption needed an equivalent “like for like”. It was a set price and only a perfect sinless life would pay the ransom to offset the value of the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children.

Jesus has always been Michael, but none of God’s free willed creatures were immortal. God had the power to destroy those spirit beings should they exercise their free will in an abusive way and rebel against him. Satan was the first to do so, but certainly not the last. Up to a third of the angels joined him in that rebellion......so God had a choice....to eliminate the rebels by using his immense power, or to use the rebellion, which involved his human children as well, to teach a powerful lesson to both, about the value of his Sovereignty over us, which included his protection and blessing. What happened in Eden was about God's Sovereignty...not his power.

On his return to heaven, after successfully completing his mission, his Father granted Jesus/Michael immortality......the power of an indestructible life.....and a “new name” that would indicate his new status. (Revelation 3:12)

The pre-human Jesus, as Michael was “the” Archangel, which means that he has always been unique among the angelic creation. There is only one Archangel. Michael has acted as God’s representative since mankind’s beginning. The Angel that spoke as God’s representative all through Israel’s history was God’s “Logos”....one who spoke God’s words to man. As a man on earth, after his baptism, he continued to be “The Word”, representing his Father in all that he taught. Never once taking credit for any of it.

If you are suggesting that a physical body can exist in heaven, then the scriptures will argue with you. God is a spirit being, his son was a spirit being before being transferred to the earth to complete his mission, as a man of flesh and blood, yet he was resurrected as a spirit in order to return to his former life in heaven at God’s right hand. He is no longer a man. Why would he be?

There is only one satan, but many demons. When satan tempted Jesus, he knew full well who he was and threw temptations at Jesus that were his own undoing.....self-interest in each of those temptations would have derailed Jesus’ whole mission. This is why Jesus said that God’s will had to prevail and not his own.

Jesus was human but not in a body burdened by sin. He was flesh and blood but the same as Adam was when God first created him....he had no defects. He would not have aged or become sick or had a tendency to sin. But as a free willed human he could still have had his loyalties divided by the devil....as was seen in the garden of Eden.

If there is anybody following this thread who would like me to reply to the above comments let me know.

Brian2 · Mar 21, 2021

Deeje said:
Where will I find a statement in the Bible to the effect that Jesus is "fully God and fully man"?
As a mediator, he was appointed by God as a "go between" so that sinful humans could still approach God in prayer. Since sin is the barrier between God and man.....Jesus bridges the gap. If he was God that makes no sense....we would need a mediator between us and Jesus if he was God.

As both God and man Jesus was the perfect mediator between God and man.
Jesus approaches God because He is the sinless man and God's Divine Son.
Jesus is also a man and so is one of us.

Deeje said:
As Paul said in Romans 14:11...
"For it is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’”

Romans 14:11 “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’

Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

It looks to me that we bow to Jesus and acknowledge Him as our God, just as Thomas did. After all He has come from manhood to being acknowledged by His Father as God by being given the name above all names.

Deeje said:
Was Paul in any doubt as to who was God and who he wasn't?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

Jehovah is our Lord and God, as is Jesus, according to Thomas.

Deeje said:
Philippians 2:5-11.....actually says the opposite to what most people assume it does....break it down...

Deeje said:
"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God"

So he never claimed equality with God...ever.

There is no need to assume anything. We just need to look at Phil 2.
Phil 2 is about humility amongst equals. It is this that Jesus exemplified when He humbled Himself to He Father even though He was in the same form as God. Being in the same form as God does not mean that He was a spirit. If that was the case then all angels might consider a seizure. Being in the same form means that He was equal to His Father in all ways, including naturem except that He humbles Himself to the will of His Father.
"Being" in "being the form of God" is a present participle and means that Jesus continued on in that form even when He became a man.

Deeje said:
"7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake."

Deeje said:
If Jesus was God to whom was he obedient? To whom did he have to subject himself....God has no one higher than he is. (Psalm 83:18)

The Son submitted to His Father. Simple.
As I said, Phil 2 is about humility between equals.
Notice that it says that He "took the form of a slave". This means that He was not a slave or servant before becoming a man.

Deeje said:
"9

Deeje said:
For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name"

Deeje said:
How does God give himself a name "above" the name that he already has? How can God be elevated to a superior position? He already occupies the most superior position?

The New World Translation you use is wrong in this verse. The Watchtower has added the word "other". Jesus, after being a humble man, is not acknowledged to everyone as being His Fathers equal by being given the "name above all names". Notice there is no "other".

Deeje said:
"10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Deeje said:
So whose glory is the obedient course of the son honoring? Not his own...but that of his God and Father.
This scripture is saying the exact opposite of what trinitarians think it does.

Jesus is given the name above all names "Jehovah" so that everyone can worship Him and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. This glorifies His Father, and as Jesus said in John 5, if we do not give the same honour to the Son as we do to the Father, then we are dishonouring the Father.
The Son honours the Father and the Father honours the Son.

Deeje said:
The son is definitely worthy of our service, but he himself is in the service of his God as an "apostle and High Priest" (Hebrews 3:1) How can God serve himself in those capacities? Jesus' God is also Our God.
"The Lord thy God" whom Jesus spoke about is Yahweh....Jesus is never once called Yahweh.

Jesus serves His Father as now being a man and servant, but He is also God and His Father also serves Him and is putting all His enemies under His feet at the moment and glorifies His Son.
Jesus God is also our God. Jesus is a man now and so has a God. Psalm 22:10 tells us when His Father became His God,,,,,,when He became a man.
Jesus is called Yahweh in many places because quotes from the OT which applied to Yahweh in the OT are applied to Jesus in the New Testament.
The Watchtower tries to hide these things as in Phil 2 above by not translating Lord as Jehovah in these quotes and as in Phil 2:11 by not translating Lord as Jehovah.
If you are going to use Jehovah in the New Testament when it not in the manuscripts then use it properly.

ElishaElijah · Mar 21, 2021

LightofTruth said:
If there is anybody following this thread who would like me to reply to the above comments let me know.

Apparently some believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ is Michael incarnate instead of God incarnate.

Trailblazer · Mar 21, 2021

LightofTruth said:
If there is anybody following this thread who would like me to reply to the above comments let me know.

Go ahead.

Trailblazer · Mar 21, 2021

Brian2 said:
As both God and man Jesus was the perfect mediator between God and man.

Jesus was not both God and man because that is logically impossible. Jesus was kind of a hybrid, a God-man, and that is why He was the prefect mediator between God and man, because He understood God and He also understood man. Baha'u'llah explained it better than I can. God conferred upon Jesus a twofold nature that ordinary humans do not possess:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Brian2 · Mar 22, 2021

filthyrottendirty said:
Jesus is not a man anymore. I believe in Jesus.

When Jesus was raised from the death it means that the man Jesus of Nazareth came back to life. This can be seen in the Gospel stories where we see that the man Jesus of Nazareth came back to life. Jesus even ascended to heaven as a man.
So why do you say that Jesus is not a man anymore?
The passages below also show us that Jesus is still a man.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—
Acts 17:31 For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

In the Book of Revelation, God is not the Lamb, and the Lamb is not God.

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