How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
A good analogy would be thinking of it like "regardless of what state you're from, American citizens are American."

It doesn't matter what tribe you're from... if you're mother's Jewish, you're Jewish... because when the People of Israel came back from the Babylonian Exile, the place they came back to was called Judea.

By mother being Jewish, are you referring to following the Old Covenant law or having relatives who did?

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
That is a very poorly worded question. Clean it up and try again.

If you believe this to be true, then you have a few problems:
1. This would make Joseph's lineage irrelevant.
2. The messiah is not God.
3. Jesus is not God.

Why would Joseph's lineage be irrelevant? Joseph the Father of Jesus

QUESTION: What do we know about Joseph the Father of Jesus?

ANSWER:

What we know about Joseph, the earthly and legal Father of Jesus, is found in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Joseph’s complete genealogy is given in Matthew 1:1-18. Though it is curious to new readers why this long genealogy is given, we quickly learn its importance. Genealogies were very important to the Jews but these verses demonstrate the lineage of Jesus Christ back to Abraham for all mankind to recognize another fulfillment of the many prophecies given about the Messiah.

Joseph was a direct descendant from David. He was a gracious man who kept the laws of Judaism and was well respected. He was a man of meager means but none the less, an honorable and faithful man. Skilled as a carpenter in the small town of Nazareth, Joseph spent time teaching his son the trade as well as providing spiritual training. Jesus is very often described as working and being taught by Joseph in his carpenter’s shop. This was an inherited occupation Jesus performed before going into His ministry.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
Why would Joseph's lineage be irrelevant?

At least one of two possible reasons.
1. If he wasn't the boy's biological father, the son couldn't be called "the seed of David"
2. If he was the boy's biological father, he would have been disqualified by the curse of Jeconiah.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
By mother being Jewish, are you referring to following the Old Covenant law or having relatives who did?

It is bizarre to me that you're phrasing it this way.

Instead of asking the question, say what you're trying to say. You obviously have an answer lined up depending on how I answer that question.... so give it your best shot and make your point.

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
He most certainly is not.

The Messiah being God implies that he was born of a virgin.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6).

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
It is bizarre to me that you're phrasing it this way.

Instead of asking the question, say what you're trying to say. You obviously have an answer lined up depending on how I answer that question.... so give it your best shot and make your point.

I was asking if Jewishness refers to following the laws of the Tanakh.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
The Messiah being God implies that he was born of a virgin.

The Messiah is not meant to be God, nor is he meant to be born of a virgin.

The idea of a god being born is the stuff of paganism. Not of Judaism.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6).

An error of translation.

Here's a better one:
For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

This verse is not, nor ever was, a messianic prophecy.

This son that God called "prince of peace" was the righteous King Hezekiah.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
I was asking if Jewishness refers to following the laws of the Tanakh.

All of your proposed definitions of Jewishness are insufficient and ambiguous. Get to the point you're trying to make with your question.

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
All of your proposed definitions of Jewishness are insufficient and ambiguous. Get to the point you're trying to make with your question.

I was asking a question on if you think being Jewish is a multifaceted concept.

Harel13 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
The Messiah is God because he's called the everlasting Father.

Check the Hebrew. The term is אבי-עד Avi-Ad, which means "my father is everlasting", not "everlasting father".

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
I was asking a question on if you think being Jewish is a multifaceted concept.

That's neither really here nor there... the bottom line is, Jewish mothers give birth to Jewish children, but the house/tribe the child belongs to is that of the father.

So if a Levite woman has a child with an Egyptian man, the child would be Jewish, but would NOT be a Levite. He would not be counted among any tribe's members.

In a Jewish prayer service, when a congregant gets called up to recite a blessing over the Torah, he is called by his name and the name of his father. For example "Yacov ben Dovid"... Yacov, the son of Dovid. But if he doesn't know his father's name (it's common in America for children to have both a Hebrew and an English name, and sometimes they don't know their father's Hebrew name), he would be called "Yacov ben Avraham". son of Abraham.

A convert would also be called up as a "son of Abraham".

A Jewish man with a non-Jewish father, if I'm not mistaken, would probably also be called up as a son of Abraham.
He does NOT get called by his mother's father's name.

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Harel13 said:
Check the Hebrew. The term is אבי-עד Avi-Ad, which means "my father is everlasting", not "everlasting father".

God is a father who is everlasting. What is the meaning of “Everlasting Father” in Isaiah 9:6? | GotQuestions.org

The Hebrew phrase translated “Everlasting Father” could be translated literally “Father of Eternity.” For this reason, some have suggested that the title means that this coming Messiah is also the creator of everything: He is the father of time and eternity, the “architect of the ages.” While we know this to be true from the New Testament (John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17), that is not the emphasis in Isaiah. In the Hebrew construction of the phrase, father is the primary noun, and everlasting (ESV, NIV, KJV) or eternal (NASB) is the term that describes His fatherhood. He is Father forever.

Harel13 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
God is a father who is everlasting.

But the person called Avi-Ad in Isaiah is not called "father is everlasting", because that's not what "Avi-Ad" means.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
God is a father who is everlasting.

Always a father, never a son. The King of Kings would never be referred to as a "prince". This would be blasphemy at best, idolatry at worst.

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
That's neither really here nor there... the bottom line is, Jewish mothers give birth to Jewish children, but the house/tribe the child belongs to is that of the father.

So if a Levite woman has a child with an Egyptian man, the child would be Jewish, but would NOT be a Levite. He would not be counted among any tribe's members.

In a Jewish prayer service, when a congregant gets called up to recite a blessing over the Torah, he is called by his name and the name of his father. For example "Yacov ben Dovid"... Yacov, the son of Dovid. But if he doesn't know his father's name (it's common in America for children to have both a Hebrew and an English name, and sometimes they don't know their father's Hebrew name), he would be called "Yacov ben Avraham". son of Abraham.

A convert would also be called up as a "son of Abraham".

A Jewish man with a non-Jewish father, if I'm not mistaken, would probably also be called up as a son of Abraham.
He does NOT get called by his mother's father's name.

What is the nuance between Jewish Hebrew and Israelite?

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
Always a father, never a son. The King of Kings would never be referred to as a "prince". This would be blasphemy at best, idolatry at worst.

A father can be a son.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
A father can be a son.

God cannot be a son.

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2021

Poisonshady313 said:
God cannot be a son.

The Messiah is called the son of man in the Old Testament. Son of man - Wikipedia

Rashi explains: ″13 "one like a man was coming": That is the King Messiah. -- "and… up to the Ancient of Days": Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations. -- "came": arrived, reached. 14 "And He gave him dominion": And to that man He gave dominion over the nations, for the heathens he likens to beasts, and Israel he likens to a man because they are humble and innocent. -- "which will not be removed": [as translated,] will not be removed.″

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
What is the nuance between Jewish Hebrew and Israelite?

They're more or less interchangeable.

Poisonshady313 · Mar 20, 2021

Skywalker said:
The Messiah is called the son of man in the Old Testament. Son of man - Wikipedia

The Messiah will be a man.

Not God.

How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

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