If God exists why does He allow suffering?

viole said:

Looks like He had had a hissy fit.lol.

i really think He should work on His temper. Anger management and such. I mean, breaking all of creation because of a human disobedience seems definitely like an over reaction.

And He does not like women.

How did He punish the serpent, the real cause of all this drama?

ciao

- viole

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Thats not what happened at all.

Sandra Jayne said:

I wonder about the omniscient 'bit' as some scriptures seem to indicate that God was not aware that some things would happen.
And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. Genesis 6:6
Seems odd to express regret for doing something if the result of one's actions was known beforehand.

They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. Jeremiah 19:5
Here God is actually admitting that what was happening was so detestable He hadn't even thought of such a thing doesn't fit in with being omniscient.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.2 Peter 3:9
Here God is expressing Himself wishing for something and if He already knows the people who are going to repent why bother to wait?

Perhaps it depends on whether God wants or has a need to know what will happen, more of a skill than a condition-just a thought.

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I think that I figured out the verses you quote, and many of the OT verses quoting God.

Jesus, the Son, is the God of the Old Testament.

This is what Paul is telling a group of Old Time Jews:


The pre-incarnate Jesus was the cloud that followed them, it was the Son that parted the Red Sea.

That Rock was Christ.

It was Jesus being quoted in the verses you list, and He does not know everything that the Father knows.

Jesus said no man can know the day or the hour.

The Father is omniscient. He can peer down through the millennia and pick the elect to be written in the Book of Life.

Jesus will not blot our names out of that Book.


Peaceful Sabbath.

joe1776 said:

You've proved that one might take any logical statement and turn it into nonsense.

I've answered the question in the OP logically. Why don't you attempt to debate it logically?

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No, you really haven't.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

No, you really haven't.

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That's your opinion, unsupported by actual debate.

viole said:

i really think He should work on His temper. Anger management and such. I mean, breaking all of creation because of a human disobedience seems definitely like an over reaction.

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I don't think you are an Atheist.

Why would you put forth such effort in analyzing a God that doesn't exist?

viole said:

And He does not like women.

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It sounds like you're still in the anger phase of Atheism yourself Viole.

Did you know that I compare the Atheist with Elizabeth Kubler Ross's five stages of grief?

Five stages of grief.

• denial.
• anger.
• bargaining.
• depression.
• acceptance.

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now.

viole said:

How did He punish the serpent, the real cause of all this drama?

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He will.

That's why this is taking so long.

After the thousand years of Revelation 20, the Dragon and his followers will the thrown into the lake of fire where they'll be annihilated.

At that point in time, no more questions will remain about what could have been done differently.

The smoke from their torment will rise forever, but they will be lost and wiped away, dreadful sorry Clementine.

Chow Mein.

-Dave

And Peaceful Sabbath.

The only thing I can think of about suffering is that it produces understanding which produces empathy.

If we never ever suffered I don't think we would understand anything about deep things.

If we never suffered we might become shallow and never truly understand others or what is important.

I picture a person who never ever suffered and is always pleased by things and other people. What would they know or learn in that state of being?

Perhaps nothing.

So God may suffer to be understood, and the creation that never suffers and thus never cares has learned nothing.

If our needs and wants were always met with ease we would be spoiled hearted, and out of touch with others. Or just plain conceited.

I'm still an atheist though. The real reason we suffer is that nature is indifferent to life. Life is not even planned for.

But holding out hope for God reasons is something I have done.

It's hard for God to love people who only please themselves and have no cares in the world. So perhaps the mission is to get people to care about the right things and that's why we suffer.

I mean if I were Omni everything I wouldn't just bring insolent punks into a state of glory.

joe1776 said:

That's your opinion, unsupported by actual debate.

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Then go ahead and assume you're right.

Considering you tried to brush off the problem of a supposedly omnipotent god not being able to do things that human beings can do as "semantics," I don't exactly take your opinion as something that I need to give a lot of weight to.

Vouthon said:

When a gnostic attained this liberating knowledge, the world of multiplicity and dualisms - good and evil, pain and pleasure - under its ignorant ruling Deity, would be understood as an illusion hiding the fundamental 'complementarity' of opposites in a fundamental wholeness: "Light and darkness, life and death, right and left are mutually dependent; it is impossible for them to separate. Accordingly the 'good' are not good, the 'bad' are not bad, 'life' is not life, 'death' is not death." (Gospel of Philip 53:14-23).

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That's close to an advaita Hindu perspective.

I add to that I can suffer during dreams called nightmares. When I wake up, I realize it was just a dream and the apparent suffering did not exist.

Similarly when we 'wake' from the 'dream' called life, we realize that everything was indeed a dream.

From another reference frame, when I work on something, I can suffer. Gymnasts can fall and get injured. Skiers can wipe out. And so forth. If you ask those who master the sports if the injuries were worth it, many would say 'yes'. Similarly, when I read accounts of those who have 'woken up', the universal statement is that the the goal is worth it. For example, Rumi:

The sweetness and delights of the resting-place are in proportion to the pain endured on the Journey. Only when you suffer the pangs and tribulations of exile will you truly enjoy your homecoming.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Then go ahead and assume you're right.

Considering you tried to brush off the problem of a supposedly omnipotent god not being able to do things that human beings can do as "semantics," I don't exactly take your opinion as something that I need to give a lot of weight to.

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1) When you assume that the suffering is unnecessary, you assume that there is another better way, and when you do that you assume your conclusion. Your assumption is based not on logic but on your definition of "omnipotent."

2) I'm not persuaded to change my mind when my debate opponent's entire argument rests on the definition of a single word that would be lethal to any logical answer to the question posed.

The question posed was: If God exists why does He allow suffering? I gave a plausible answer. So, yes, until someone offers a counter-point I haven't thought of, I will assume I'm right.

adrian009 said:

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

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It doesn't bother me at all. My religion has good enough answers for that. Suffering is a part of life and occasion for growth and learning.

Also, I find having a loved one pass away to be a pretty shallow reason to lose belief in God(s). Death is just a part of life. I assume the woman in the OP was a Christian. Christianity does not teach that you will not suffer or die or be touched by it in some way. It does try to prepare you for such eventualities.

Dave Watchman said:

He will.

That's why this is taking so long.

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He is taking Him so long because He does not exist. Don’t you see that? Or maybe Satan is smart enough to do the opposite of whAt expected in the prophecy, delaying it thereby indefinetely, lol.

Everyday it passes without Him landing down from the sky, should make you realize that.

ciao

- viole

Dave Watchman said:

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now

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You make it too complicated. I do not believe in God for the same reasons I do not believe in the blue fairy. they both have the same evidence, and there is therefore no logical reason to believe one is more plausible thna the other.

ciao

- viole

Dave Watchman said:

I don't think you are an Atheist.

Why would you put forth such effort in analyzing a God that doesn't exist?

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I am not analyzing a God that does not exist. Obviously. He is so implausible to me that it would be like theorizing about the metaphysical problems surrounding the existence of Pinocchio.

But what exists is belief in Him. And that is what I am addressing.

Ciao

- viole

Hermit Philosopher said:

Dear Evangelicalhumanist,

Would it not just as well be possible to say that the question itself is still always the same: what will you make of this that is before you?

Perhaps it is only our answers that differ...?


Humbly
Hermit

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Well and good, but it evades the realities faced by real people, and thus, while it might make for many pleasant hours of philosophical discourse, it's pretty much useless if you're those 3 kids and their grandpa getting t-boned by the drunk, or Daniel Pearl getting your head cut off by a Jihadi. What you're going to do with it then is simply die.

viole said:

He is taking Him so long because He does not exist. Don’t you see that?

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He exists.

It's true.

I promise you Viole.

Just stay out of Covid's way and you will see.

viole said:

Or maybe Satan is smart enough to do the opposite of whAt expected in the prophecy, delaying it thereby indefinetely, lol.

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He is smart.

I think I'm smart.

I think that you are smarter.

But the Devil is smarter than both of us.

And again, you don't believe in God. But then you shift gears to Satan, if he is smart enough maybe he can do the opposite of what is expected and fool God. Or make a delay.

It's funny you mention it, because that's what I think it is.

We are living in a delay that Satan was able to generate, but it will not be indefinite.

Jesus insinuated, the Master is delayed.

viole said:

Everyday it passes without Him landing down from the sky, should make you realize that.

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I like that you capitalize: Him.

You should be glad, it gives us more time to figure this out.

I think it was supposed to happen already, like now (2019).

I think we are living in the tail end of the delay.

The Westminster Confession of Faith talked about the Elect Infantry.

Satan knows this better than anyone else.

Satan also knows, that Jesus' landing down from the sky, as you so eloquently put it, will coincide with all the other specifications spoken of in the holy writ. Like us being changed, us being like Him for we will see Him as He is.

The bad news is there is only one rapture, there's not a second chance.

So all the ideal candidates, all of God's People need to be present and accounted for at that time.

Satan knows this, by not only spreading the legality of abortion, but by it's popularization in multiple large jurisdictions around the world, he could make a considerable dent in the number of Saints that enter into the world. And so create a delay.

He didn't even need to be that smart. But only the Dragon is in a position where he could give his power, and his throne, and his great authority in influencing the composite beast, church and state, on a global scale.

Just by the way I'm eyeballing the last heptad, that I think we're in, it still has to happen soon. I think that because we're probably in it, it's too rude right now to write the date, or the time frame I see us in.

As we wait for our brothers and our fellow servants.



Chow for now,

Peaceful Sabbath.
- Dave.

joe1776 said:

”
Epicurus left out an option. Perhaps an omnipotent God intended life as a moral learning process for our species. If that was the case, asking "Why does God permit suffering?" would be like asking "Why don't teachers give us the answers on tests?" Suffering is our challenge.

My answer would lead to the conclusion that the purpose of human life, beyond survival, is to make moral progress both individually and as a species. As a species, our task is to reduce the suffering in this world.

Then comes the question "Is our species making moral progress? And the answer is "Yes." We humans are treating each other, and the other animals, better today than at any time in the distant past.

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I am not sure I understand you.
Do you mean that God can not teach us just as effectively in some other way?

viole said:

You make it too complicated. I do not believe in God for the same reasons I do not believe in the blue fairy. they both have the same evidence, and there is therefore no logical reason to believe one is more plausible thna the other.

ciao

- viole

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Succinct, to the point, and true. What else could one ask from a post?

Saint Frankenstein said:

Also, I find having a loved one pass away to be a pretty shallow reason to lose belief in God(s). Death is just a part of life. I assume the woman in the OP was a Christian. Christianity does not teach that you will not suffer or die or be touched by it in some way. It does try to prepare you for such eventualities.

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I don't think the problem was death per se, but rather how and when it happened.

You cant be partial, nor impartial to God...