• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
really? Can you show me the difference in the text? Betcha can't. If you show me in the hebrew that there is a difference, I'll give you a shiny nickel. If you can't I get your first born child.

Deal?

King Saul did not fulfill these messianic prophecies. Has the Messiah of the Old Testament Come?

Judah’s Sceptre
In his closing days on earth, Jacob uttered a number of prophecies regarding the future fortunes of his sons. Concerning Judah, he said. “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh come” (Genesis 49:10).
For many years it has been acknowledged both by Jewish and Christian writers that this passage refers to the Messiah (regardless of the differences in views over details, e.g., the precise meaning of “Shiloh”). Watson noted that “the ancient Jews are in this matter agreed with the Christians, in acknowledging that the word stands for the Messiah, the King” (Watson, 946). The text clearly indicates that, in some sense, the Jews would retain their sovereignty until the arrival of the Messiah, after which, at some point, that rule would be surrendered.
The historical facts are these. The substantial sovereignty of the nation never ceased until Herod Archelaus was removed from his position. Herod the Great’s wicked son, Archelaus, “reigned” over the Hebrews until he was deposed in A.D. 6 (cf. Matthew 2:22). The Jews henceforth were governed by the Romans through a series of procurators, one of whom was Pontius Pilate. It thus is clear that by the time the Romans took direct control over the Jews, the Hebrew “ruling” power (“scepter”) was completely and permanently gone (for further study see: McClintock, IX.681). “Shiloh” (Messiah) had come! His appearance is not awaiting the future.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
really? Can you show me the difference in the text? Betcha can't. If you show me in the hebrew that there is a difference, I'll give you a shiny nickel. If you can't I get your first born child.

Deal?
Are you secretly Rumpelstiltskin?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Are you saying he wasn't the messiah? Because the text says he was. Are you getting Tyred yet?

1 Samuel 10:1 says that King Saul was anointed King by Samuel.

Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
1 Samuel 10:1 says that King Saul was anointed King by Samuel.

Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?
Great, so you are saying he was the messiah. Thanks! Oil be seeing you!
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Great, so you are saying he was the messiah. Thanks! Oil be seeing you!

Do you think this prophecy is a reference to King Saul? The context determines the meaning of the verse. Who Is the Mysterious Shiloh?

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh come: And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be. Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***’s colt unto the choice vine; he has washed his garments in wine, and his vesture in the blood of grapes: his eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk” (Genesis 49:10-12)
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, why would I think it refers to Saul? Do you think it refers to Solomon?

I think it's a reference to Jesus, the lion of the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49 – Behold Jesus, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah « Covenant Life Church | Tampa, FL

GENESIS 49 – BEHOLD JESUS, THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH

As we approach the end of the book of Genesis, and the end of the life of Jacob, we see the blessings of Jacob upon his sons. Moses takes this opportunity to not only record history, but to record the words of God speaking through Jacob to point us to the hope of all nations, our coming Messiah, the lion of the tribe of Judah.

As you look at Genesis 49:8-12, what do you see of this descendant of Judah? He will be praised by all. He will be as a lion. He will be one who rules over all peoples. He will be one who crushes his enemies. He will be one to whom all his brothers bow down. He is one who is feared. His kingdom is an eternal kingdom. And there will be none capable or worthy to challenge his throne. One day all nations will bring tribute and worship before him. And he is one to whom all the nations owe obedience.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Oh, I don't think that's it even a little. Jesus is dead and he wasn't a lion. Maybe a weasel.

There are two aspects of the Messiah's work-there is one where he would come in our midst in a very real way-God identifying with us, and would suffer and die for us and rise from the dead, before the second temple was destroyed. The message would then spread throughout the entire world. And then at the end of the age he would return and establish his kingdom on the earth, and do many of the things that traditional Jews expect him to do.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
There are two aspects of the Messiah's work-there is one where he would come in our midst in a very real way-God identifying with us, and would suffer and die for us and rise from the dead, before the second temple was destroyed. The message would then spread throughout the entire world. And then at the end of the age he would return and establish his kingdom on the earth, and do many of the things that traditional Jews expect him to do.
no there aren't. no he won't. no he won't.

in that order.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is an opinion that 49 speaks of one of the messiahs, yes.

Why do you think there are multiple Messiahs? To me, there's clear scriptural testimony of something monumental that had to happen before the second temple was destroyed, and that it's clear that our people as a nation would reject this one, would not understand his mission, that he would become a light to the gentiles, and only at the end of that would there be a mass recognition with him among Israel.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Why do you think there are multiple Messiahs? To me, there's clear scriptural testimony of something monumental that had to happen before the second temple was destroyed, and that it's clear that our people as a nation would reject this one, would not understand his mission, that he would become a light to the gentiles, and only at the end of that would there be a mass recognition with him among Israel.
Well, think about it. Saul was a messiah - I showed you the verse. Solomon was a messiah (1 Kings 1:45) that makes 2 just to start. Why would you think that there AREN'T multiple messiahs? I mean, you have the verses right there!

What else don't you understand about singular and plural? I know it can be tricky, but I am trained and certified to teach English so if you need any help, just ask!
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Well, think about it. Saul was a messiah - I showed you the verse. Solomon was a messiah (1 Kings 1:45) that makes 2 just to start. Why would you think that there AREN'T multiple messiahs? I mean, you have the verses right there!

What else don't you understand about singular and plural? I know it can be tricky, but I am trained and certified to teach English so if you need any help, just ask!

How does Saul being anointed means that there are multiple anointed ones? Saul was not the anointed one. Nero was an antichrist but he was not the antichrist.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
How does Saul being anointed means that there are multiple anointed ones? Saul was not the anointed one. Nero was an antichrist but he was not the antichrist.
I'll break it down for you (because that's the kind of guy I am):

Saul was anointed.
Solomon was anointed.

If you count the number of people I listed as being anointed (evidenced by verses) you will see that there are, as you ask, "multiple anointed ones" because 2 is more than one, and 2 is "multiple." I can check that in a dictionary if you'd like.

Please hold.

Checked, yup. Two is multiple.

I can't help you with your Nero problem. I heard he played the violin.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I'll break it down for you (because that's the kind of guy I am):

Saul was anointed.
Solomon was anointed.

If you count the number of people I listed as being anointed (evidenced by verses) you will see that there are, as you ask, "multiple anointed ones" because 2 is more than one, and 2 is "multiple." I can check that in a dictionary if you'd like.

Please hold.

Checked, yup. Two is multiple.

I can't help you with your Nero problem. I heard he played the violin.

Saul and Solomon being anointed doesn't mean that they are the anointed one. What does Messiah mean? | GotQuestions.org

In the Old Testament, people were anointed for the positions of prophet, priest, and king. God told Elijah to anoint Elisha to succeed him as Israel’s prophet (1 Kings 19:16). Aaron was anointed as the first high priest of Israel (Leviticus 8:12). Samuel anointed both Saul and David as kings of Israel (1 Samuel 10:1; 16:13). All of these men held “anointed” positions. But the Old Testament predicted a coming Deliverer, chosen by God to redeem Israel (Isaiah 42:1; 61:1–3). This Deliverer the Jews called the Messiah.
 
Top