Christians! Do you despise Abominations? There's only one left to hate....which?

Brian2 said:

No, God.

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Nah......
Back then Jesus required the fulfillment of all except the sacrificial, ceremonial laws kept by a corrupt Temple.
So think you've got that wrong.

Regiomontanus said:

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Yeah.......
You know what's coming, I'm guessing.

KenS said:

I though those scriptures were for the followers of the Mosaic Law. Why would that apply to Christians under a New Covenant--a different Covenant? Shouldn't you be asking this of my Jewish brothers?

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Are you telling me that you ignore the laws of Moses (except sacrifice etc)??

Even the local Council here insists on some of them, and our Country insists on many!
Strange.....

oldbadger said:

Here is a paragraph from that link:-
Most Christian groups believe that of the Old Covenant, only parts dealing with the moral law (as opposed to ceremonial law) are still applicable, others believe that none apply, dual-covenant theologians believe that the Old Covenant remains valid only for Jews, and a minority hold the view that all parts still apply to believers in Jesus and in the New Covenant.

Oh dear........ the laws that get ignored, and those ones that are embraced, thus causing so much prejudice.



Of course they don't....... Jesus and aptist both were totally opposed to sacrifice, Temple corruption, etc etc..... but all the rest he insisted upon at that time.

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For him personally, sure. Christ was a Jew. But he offered a New Covenant, too, in place of the old one. And there is some stuff in the Epistles, I think, that clarifies that the new Christians are not expected to adhere to all the old Jewish rules. Paul the Apostle and Jewish Christianity

A Vestigial Mote said:

So, missing explicit context here, who is the target of this statement? Does it (somehow/otherwise) explicitly state that MEN should not "lie with mankind, as with womankind?" What if this was directed at a female? It would be an instruction for women not to "lay" with men - and that they are, instead, supposed to "lay" with women! And if, instead, they simply assumed we'd know that these directions were directed at MEN ALONE... well... I think we all see the inherent problem in that. I mean... which parts of The Bible are women allowed to ignore if it is only speaking to men? And if it is sometimes speaking to men, and sometimes to both women and men, without specifying, even more trouble.

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Can't help you i'm afraid.
I'm just quoting the KJV bible word for word.
I'll guess that this law was afddressed to blokes, but you interpret it how you like. But that law was there to increase the tribe and protect from sickness JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS...... so I haven't got an issue with it myself.

At any rate, since all of this text (The Bible) is so very open to interpretation - as I have been witness to time and time again as Christians fall all over themselves trying to explain away this or that (for instance, Jesus stating plainly that "there are those among you who will not perish before X comes to pass," when it clearly DID NOT) - I feel completely within my rights to assume that this is a command for NO ONE to "lay" with men. It sort of presents a conundrum for the idea of continuation of the species... but oh well. These are the words of God we're talking about here, and who am I to challenge them?

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Interpret it as you will.
But it makes it's own kind of sense to me...... back then the tribe wanted growth for strength and closed couples for health. Easy. The closed-couples thing works today, of course.

Left Coast said:

Where did you get the idea that Jesus "didn't support sacrifices?"

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1. Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

2. Both the Baptist and Jesus were offering cleansing and redemption from sins by immersion........ for nothing! They were attracting flocks of people and cutting off funds from the Temple.

That's not an idea...... I've read about it.

exchemist said:

For him personally, sure. Christ was a Jew. But he offered a New Covenant, too, in place of the old one. And there is some stuff in the Epistles, I think, that clarifies that the new Christians are not expected to adhere to all the old Jewish rules. Paul the Apostle and Jewish Christianity

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Paul wrote lots of things never mentioned by Jesus. But then, so many Christians seem to be Paulines, if you know what I mean?
But Jesus supported all the OT laws back then (except sacrifice etc)

How (some )Christians decided that they could cherry pick their favourites and discard the ones that got in their way ( ) is for them to answer.

Here we go, Folks....... it's Deuteronomy!

I understand that Deuteronomy roughly means 'second reading' but many of its laws are unique to it for some reason.


Deuteronomy {7:25} The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God. {7:26} Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: [but] thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it [is] a cursed thing.

Silver and gold, eh? So this law was only for the Jews, is that right?
I expect a few theists have some of that! I've got some but Deists don't count here, we can be really really wicked 'cos our Deity is too big to bother with us. *smug feeling*
But in any case don't worry because if you do collect any then you will not go to hell. A Gold coin purchased each month can make a pension!

KenS said:

I though those scriptures were for the followers of the Mosaic Law. Why would that apply to Christians under a New Covenant--a different Covenant?

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Sin = transgression of the law.

KenS said:

Shouldn't you be asking this of my Jewish brothers?

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I'm supposed to be a Jew.

Abraham's seed.

We are not all Jews that are called a Jew.

KenS said:

If I came right down to it, it was I that was an abomination but: "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." and then again, " For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So now, as an ambassador of The King, I am a sanctifier of abominations

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I'd be more cautious.

There may be multiple things God calls an abomination, but only one Abomination that signals serious desolation.

Jesus said that when we see the abomination, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place.

Luke replaced the abomination with the mention first of the "days of Lot" in Chapter 17.

If that was a hint it might be imperative to figure out where the holy place might be.

It might afford us a 1290 day Finger print.


1) The Netherlands (2000)
2) Belgium (2003)
3) Canada (2005)
4) Spain (2005)
5) South Africa (2006)
6) Norway (2009)
7) Sweden (2009)
8) Argentina (2010)
9) Iceland (2010)
10) Portugal (2010)
11) Denmark (2012)
12) Brazil (2013)
13) England and Wales (2013)
14) France (2013)
15) New Zealand (2013)
16) Uruguay (2013)
17) Luxembourg (2014)
18) Scotland (2014)
19) Finland: (signed 2015, effective 2017)
20) Ireland: (2015)
21) United States: (2015)<-------1290 days------->Sun/Moon.
21) United States: (2015)<-------1290 days------->EofW.

From an Abomination, until a "darkened sun" and a moon that did not give her light.

And two more!


Deuteronomy{14:3} Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
....or you could get sick! Easy! Onwards.....! Next!


Deuteronomy{17:1} Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God [any] bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, [or] any evilfavouredness: for that [is] an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

A handy law for the priesthood who flogged sacrificial animals, so the chances of your sacrifice being condemned was fairly high (in the time of Jesus). Another reason why the Baptist and Jesus thought that the Temple was a crock of corruption.

Onwards................

oldbadger said:

Paul wrote lots of things never mentioned by Jesus. But then, so many Christians seem to be Paulines, if you know what I mean?
But Jesus supported all the OT laws back then (except sacrifice etc)

How (some )Christians decided that they could cherry pick their favourites and discard the ones that got in their way ( ) is for them to answer.

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And that's what I've just been doing.

But, seriously, there are numerous references in the Gospels of Jesus being asked tricky questions about details of the Law by the "Scribes and Pharisees" (who generally get a bad press). Jesus's responses convey the sense that this nitpicking about the Law is not something worth getting hung up on, e.g. "Was the Sabbath made for Man, or Man for the Sabbath?". He also goes out of his way to claim that what he preached was for all people, whether Jewish or not, and there are plenty of examples of non-Jews being portrayed as virtuous to ram home this point, e.g. the parable of the Good Samaritan, or the (very moving) account of the first Gentile convert - the centurion at the foot of the cross. So it is plain that Jesus did not see his followers as needing to be Jews, even though he and the Apostles were, of course.

Dave Watchman said:

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,​

Sin = transgression of the law.

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Nope! The law was there for a reason!
Sin led to sickness, weakness, loss of strength. (except the sacrifice laws etc)

You won't find one that did not lead to sickness or weakness.

There may be multiple things God calls an abomination, but only one Abomination that signals serious desolation.

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....... anything that caused weakness, sickness, loss of strength.

J

exchemist said:

And that's what I've just been doing.

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Wot? Discarding the ones that you want to break?
Hmmmmm.... we might think alike, and I'm sure that we neither of us would chuck all our toys out of the pram over what other folks choose as partners etc. Obviously I would if some street brat tried to rob me..... but otherwise I'm just a cuddly puppy.

oldbadger said:

Wot? Discarding the ones that you want to break?
Hmmmmm.... we might think alike, and I'm sure that we neither of us would chuck all our toys out of the pram over what other folks choose as partners etc. Obviously I would if some street brat tried to rob me..... but otherwise I'm just a cuddly puppy.

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See my addition to that post for further explanation.

It's not discarding the ones I personally want to break and it is not cherry-picking. As the articles I have linked explain, there is, and has been from the early days of Christianity, a coherent theology around what was retained from the Mosaic Law (e.g. the Ten Commandments) and what was considered unnecessary for Gentile converts to follow (e.g. dietary laws, circumcision).

The issue with Judaism is that it combines a religion and the culture of a people. So for the early Gentile Christians, it was necessary to disentangle the religious principles to keep from the cultural parts, which were considered optional or not required.

oldbadger said:

Are you telling me that you ignore the laws of Moses (except sacrifice etc)??

Even the local Council here insists on some of them, and our Country insists on many!
Strange.....

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Not at all, and I don't think that is what I said. The approach is totally different because it is a different covenant, a different contract, an updated "Last Will and New (upgraded - improved - better promises) Testament".

So, for an example, "DON'T EAT SHELLFISH - IT IS AN ABOMINATION" has been changed to "`4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

As an Ambassador of the King, I am a sanctifier Please serve my bat sandwich with mayo and mustard

Now... certain aspects remained the same like "love your God with all of your heart, your soul, your mind and your strength".

oldbadger said:

Christians! Do you despise Abominations? There only seems to be one left to abhor........ but which?

Having trawled through the laws of Moses I have collected some 'abominations'... dreadful unholy things... Not!

But the times have changed! There's only one left to utterly despise....... but which one? Wanna guess?

Here we go............. in order of appearance........ one abomination at a time. *shudders*


Leviticus {7:18} And if [any] of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.

No problems! Jesus didn't support sacrifices, but in any case you could chomp away if you wanted to! We've got fridges and freezers now so you won't go to hell.

Next........!

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I just read this post 3 times, and for the life of me, still have no idea of what you're talking about.

oldbadger said:

Next...!

Leviticus {18:22} Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Back then babies and tribal growth were needed for future strength, and therefore homosexuality could either reduce the people's potential or transmit sicknesses around. But today we don't need masses of babies and closed couples are best whether hetero or homosexual. In any case you won't go to hell! Fortunately some Christian Denominations and Churches now will ordain gays, recognise gay couples and some will marry gays...... Thank goodness for common sense and love.
Next!

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Do you understand the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony? A Sacrament which the GOD ordained? The reason why it is so? What it can cause if it is not adhered to?
You think time phases out the Word of GOD? Any church that does so, is exposing themselves as not the church that GOD is building; simple.

Dave Watchman said:

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,​

Sin = transgression of the law.



I'm supposed to be a Jew.

Abraham's seed.

We are not all Jews that are called a Jew.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise."

"Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham just because they are descendants."​

I'd be more cautious.

There may be multiple things God calls an abomination, but only one Abomination that signals serious desolation.

Jesus said that when we see the abomination, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place.

Luke replaced the abomination with the mention first of the "days of Lot" in Chapter 17.

If that was a hint it might be imperative to figure out where the holy place might be.

It might afford us a 1290 day Finger print.

Calculate Duration Between Two Dates – Results​

1) The Netherlands (2000)
2) Belgium (2003)
3) Canada (2005)
4) Spain (2005)
5) South Africa (2006)
6) Norway (2009)
7) Sweden (2009)
8) Argentina (2010)
9) Iceland (2010)
10) Portugal (2010)
11) Denmark (2012)
12) Brazil (2013)
13) England and Wales (2013)
14) France (2013)
15) New Zealand (2013)
16) Uruguay (2013)
17) Luxembourg (2014)
18) Scotland (2014)
19) Finland: (signed 2015, effective 2017)
20) Ireland: (2015)
21) United States: (2015)<-------1290 days------->Sun/Moon.
21) United States: (2015)<-------1290 days------->EofW.

From an Abomination, until a "darkened sun" and a moon that did not give her light.

"And the Dragon was enraged with the woman,
and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who
keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

"Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who
keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

"Blessed are they that
do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. - Revelation 22:14​

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Wonderful! Im so glad you mentioned this. Do you know what that abomination is?

I'm working on it now.

We should know soon enough.

oldbadger said:

Nope! The law was there for a reason!
Sin led to sickness, weakness, loss of strength. (except the sacrifice laws etc)

You won't find one that did not lead to sickness or weakness.




....... anything that caused weakness, sickness, loss of strength.

J

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There certainly was a reason (back then) for dietary laws. They didn't have the information that we have now such as the dangers of eating shell fish.