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Choose to Believe?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Please tell, how it has been demonstrated? Unfortunately, it seems people, without God, are “moral” only if it is beneficial for them.
Atheists are moral, atheists are good (not all of them of course, but then neither are all Christians) no need for a god to be either good or moral.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yet you cannot refute what you believe is nonsense.
No worries, no Christian ever has, since there is nothing in the Bible to refute it with.

For example, I said: "In fact, the Bible refutes the belief that the same Jesus will ever return to earth."
That belief is refuted below, yet no Christian can address my refutation; they just dig in their heels and continue to believe that Jesus is going to return someday.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Yet you cannot refute what you believe is nonsense.
No worries, no Christian ever has, since there is nothing in the Bible to refute it with.

For example, I said: "In fact, the Bible refutes the belief that the same Jesus will ever return to earth."
That belief is refuted below, yet no Christian can address my refutation; they just dig in their heels and continue to believe that Jesus is going to return someday.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Here I'll refute it for you.

1. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am ye may be also. John 14:2-3

2. ....which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11

3. 1 Timothy 6:14

4. When the Son of man shall come in all his glory, and all the holy angels with him .... Matthew 25:31-46

5. Matthew 24:37-44

6. Matthew 25:13

7. Hebrews 10:37

8. and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

9. 2 Peter 3:10 and 2 Peter 3:3-7 (Note: This is proof it definitely can't have already been fulfilled by his returning as some "Baba" like you claimed.)

10. James 5:7

11. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Verses like these refute your claim that he already returned as some "Baba"
 
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night912

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I don’t want to do that. And I think your argument is like saying, “can you choose to murder people or not? if you choose not to murder, prove that you really can make the choice by murdering someone”. I think that is just ridiculous. And I don’t want to do stupid thing just to prove something for you. If you don’t believe, it is not a problem to me.
So you can't do that because it's impossible and/or you're afraid that it will change your beliefs. Got it. :thumbsup:
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
If you chose to believe, you know you are alright, but you don’t have to choose to believe in order to believe. Free will is a test.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Here I'll refute it for you.
I see you cited some of my faves and some new ones so my answer will be long and require two posts.
1. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am ye may be also. John 14:2-3
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus did say He would come again, but Jesus did not say ‘how’ He would come so there is no reason to think this one verse is Jesus saying He will come to earth again in the same physical body He had when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago, especially in light of all the other verses that contradict that (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30).

"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body, and please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and ‘do’ anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as most Christians believe Jesus will do.

Jesus did not say "my body will come again." The spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah, and that was what Jesus promised to send. Jesus was a Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not about His physical body, because there would be no way that the disciples Jesus was speaking to could receive the body of Jesus on earth since they were no longer living on earth. Where Jesus was in heaven and that is where the disciples also are, so that is where Jesus received them. That is why Jesus said that He went to prepare a place for them, a place in heaven, not on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.
2. ....which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11
That is not Jesus saying He is coming back in the same body but let's look at it anyway.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw the body of Jesus go up.
It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

This same Jesus means the same spirit of Jesus, not the same body of Jesus because that body died on the cross and Jesus was resurrected in a spiritual body that will live forever in heaven.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the same spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That is not proof of anything. Maybe Paul believed that Jesus would appear again, but the verse says nothing about (1) how or where Jesus would appear, and it says nothing about (2) Jesus returning to this world in the same physical body…. I go with Jesus, not Paul.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
4. When the Son of man shall come in all his glory, and all the holy angels with him .... Matthew 25:31-46
The Son of man verses that say that the Son of man shall come in all his glory are not about Jesus. I proved that in the following thread.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

People who really want to know the truth about the return of Christ will look at all the details; others will just go on believing what they have always believed because that is easier and what they want to believe.
Matthew 24:37-44 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Yet more verses about the return of Jesus, the Son of man (Baha’u’llah) who came in the clouds (which means veiled by men’s ignorance). Jesus told us to watch lest we not miss Him when His Spirit returned but since Christians were waiting for the same body of Jesus to come down from heaven in the physical clouds they missed Him.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

That’s right, Jesus told us to watch, but not many people were watching and those who were watching missed seeing Him because were waiting for the same body of Jesus to come down from heaven in the physical clouds. This is all recorded in history and it is called the Great Disappointment.

(Continued on next post)
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

I just love it when Christians quote verses out of context. NOTHING in that chapter says anything about Jesus returning to earth.

It is comical how Christians look for verses that say “come” and try to apply them to the return of Jesus to this earth in the same body.
8. and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28
Hebrews 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That verse is not about the second coming of Jesus. We were already saved by Jesus, so why would Jesus come back to earth to save us AGAIN?

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus came to save individual souls; Baha’u’llah came confer salvation unto all of humanity.

“They read the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord, notwithstanding that He hath come through the potency of His exalted, His mighty and gracious dominion. We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

Speaking about God’s power and God’s purpose, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings, p. 243
9. 2 Peter 3:10 and 2 Peter 3:3-7 (Note: This is proof it definitely can't have already been fulfilled by his returning as some "Baba" like you claimed.)
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You do not really believe that verse was ever intended to be interpreted literally do you, that the heavens will pass away and the earth shall be burned up? This verse is clearly symbolic of a great event that will take place when Christ returns, tumult and chaos.

I guess you do not know anything about what happened in the history of the Baha’i Faith, which completely fulfills this prophecy.

2 Peter 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

I guess you do not know anything about what happened in the history of the Baha’i Faith, which completely fulfills this prophecy.
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

All that verse says is that patience was needed and since Christ did not return until the 19th century, long after James said that, a lot of patience was needed.
11. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Verses like these refute your claim that he already returned as some "Baba"
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

As usual, it all boils down to how you interpret the verses, but no matter how you interpret these verses they don’t say that Jesus is coming back to the world, and that is what this discussion is all about;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus when He referred to Jesus as the Son of Man, so that fulfills verse 10.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee…….

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings, pp. 85-86

Why would you think it would be easy to recognize Baha’u’llah, does God ever make anything easy? Jesus knew that and that is why Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Most people do not believe in the Baha’i Faith because it is the new religion at the narrow gate. It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Is it possible to 'choose to believe' something?

In other words, is belief a choice? or are you simply convinced/unconvinced by what you have learned so far?

Also, it is certainly possible to act 'as if' something is true. But is that the same as belief? Or merely a provisional assumption until more evidence is found?
I think it's possible to convince yourself of something, but as I understand the word "beleif," it has to do with truth, and we don't get to choose truth.

I would suspect there are better words that have been overlooked in favour of calling a thing "belief."
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

I just love it when Christians quote verses out of context. NOTHING in that chapter says anything about Jesus returning to earth.

It is comical how Christians look for verses that say “come” and try to apply them to the return of Jesus to this earth in the same body.

Hebrews 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That verse is not about the second coming of Jesus. We were already saved by Jesus, so why would Jesus come back to earth to save us AGAIN?

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus came to save individual souls; Baha’u’llah came confer salvation unto all of humanity.

“They read the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord, notwithstanding that He hath come through the potency of His exalted, His mighty and gracious dominion. We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

Speaking about God’s power and God’s purpose, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings, p. 243

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You do not really believe that verse was ever intended to be interpreted literally do you, that the heavens will pass away and the earth shall be burned up? This verse is clearly symbolic of a great event that will take place when Christ returns, tumult and chaos.

I guess you do not know anything about what happened in the history of the Baha’i Faith, which completely fulfills this prophecy.

2 Peter 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

I guess you do not know anything about what happened in the history of the Baha’i Faith, which completely fulfills this prophecy.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

All that verse says is that patience was needed and since Christ did not return until the 19th century, long after James said that, a lot of patience was needed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

As usual, it all boils down to how you interpret the verses, but no matter how you interpret these verses they don’t say that Jesus is coming back to the world, and that is what this discussion is all about;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus when He referred to Jesus as the Son of Man, so that fulfills verse 10.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee…….

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings, pp. 85-86

Why would you think it would be easy to recognize Baha’u’llah, does God ever make anything easy? Jesus knew that and that is why Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Most people do not believe in the Baha’i Faith because it is the new religion at the narrow gate. It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.


We will just have to disagree, because to me what you are saying is nonsense. We disagree on so many points it is a waste of time to even continue. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
I will not accept another gospel. Galatians 1:8-9
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy. Try again.

No you said you proved something. I just asked how because you didn't. Try again.

I don't think you are trying to honestly debate. You just jumped in and are trying to cause confusion.

Ask a question or make a valid point and I might respond. Otherwise I am done.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We will just have to disagree, because to me what you are saying is nonsense. We disagree on so many points it is a waste of time to even continue.
I agree. Me and thomas t decided to all it quits today too since we were just going around in circles and getting nowhere. But before we part ways I would like to comment upon the verses you cited.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The problem with those verses above is that the Jesus that Paul preached was not the historical Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago. Moreover Paul had no authority given to him by Jesus to speak for Jesus and represent the mission of Jesus. The keys to the Kingdom were given to Peter, not to Paul. Christians should know these things.

Matthew 16:18-19 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The following is an excerpt from a thread I started about 2 ½ years ago entitled:

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….

Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “

(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )

To continue reading: How Paul changed the course of Christianity
I will not accept another gospel. Galatians 1:8-9
Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Another thing you should know is that the Baha’i Faith is not “another Gospel.” Only Jesus has a Gospel. Baha’u’llah received a new Revelation from God, just as Jesus received a new Revelation from God which was 'separate' from what Moses had received. From the Revelation of Baha’u’llah a new religion emerged called the Baha’i Faith, just as from the Revelation of Jesus a new religion emerged called Christianity.

The Baha’i Faith is a new religion so if you say that you will not accept a new religion that would be more accurate than saying you will not accept another gospel.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I agree. Me and thomas t decided to all it quits today too since we were just going around in circles and getting nowhere. But before we part ways I would like to comment upon the verses you cited.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The problem with those verses above is that the Jesus that Paul preached was not the historical Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago. Moreover Paul had no authority given to him by Jesus to speak for Jesus and represent the mission of Jesus. The keys to the Kingdom were given to Peter, not to Paul. Christians should know these things.

Matthew 16:18-19 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The following is an excerpt from a thread I started about 2 ½ years ago entitled:

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….

Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “

(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )

To continue reading: How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Another thing you should know is that the Baha’i Faith is not “another Gospel.” Only Jesus has a Gospel. Baha’u’llah received a new Revelation from God, just as Jesus received a new Revelation from God which was 'separate' from what Moses had received. From the Revelation of Baha’u’llah a new religion emerged called the Baha’i Faith, just as from the Revelation of Jesus a new religion emerged called Christianity.

The Baha’i Faith is a new religion so if you say that you will not accept a new religion that would be more accurate than saying you will not accept another gospel.


No it's another gospel, at least in the sense that It is twisting what the apostles taught.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No it's another gospel, at least in the sense that It is twisting what the apostles taught.
No, the Baha'i Faith is not another gospel because it is not about Jesus, it is about Baha'u'llah.

What I believe the New Testament means is another matter, but it is my interpretation of the gospel, not another gospel. Twisting implies that there is just one correct meaning and I twisted that meaning. I am not twisting anything, I am just interpreting what I read and assigning a meaning. Since nobody was given any authority by God or Jesus to interpret the Bible one interpretation is just as good as another.

Why don't Christians understand that the Bible has to be read and interpreted? And it is because Christians interpret it differently that Christians are divided. If Christians cannot agree with each other on the meanings of verses why would a Baha'i agree with a Christian?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
No, the Baha'i Faith is not another gospel because it is not about Jesus, it is about Baha'u'llah.

What I believe the New Testament means is another matter, but it is my interpretation of the gospel, not another gospel. Twisting implies that there is just one correct meaning and I twisted that meaning. I am not twisting anything, I am just interpreting what I read and assigning a meaning. Since nobody was given any authority by God or Jesus to interpret the Bible one interpretation is just as good as another.

Why don't Christians understand that the Bible has to be read and interpreted? And it is because Christians interpret it differently that Christians are divided. If Christians cannot agree with each other on the meanings of verses why would a Baha'i agree with a Christian?

You said he returned the 2nd time as Baha... which is a corruption of the gospel the apostles taught. So it is another version of the gospel whether you admit it or not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You said he returned the 2nd time as Baha... which is a corruption of the gospel the apostles taught. So it is another version of the gospel whether you admit it or not.
The apostles did not teach about Baha'u'llah because they did not even know who He was!

I said that the Christ Spirit, the Holy Spirit, returned in the person of Baha'u'llah.
That is not a corruption of the gospel just because you do not agree with it.

The REAL corruption of the gospel is trying to twist verses to mean that the same Jesus is going to return to earth in the same body. That is not only corruption, it is not even IN the gospel and it is a direct contradiction to what the gospel actually says.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
 
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