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Understanding John 1:1

Colt

Well-Known Member
God's angels are immortal beings. They don't die. Jesus said that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father in heaven.

God's holy angels are not bound to either heaven or earth. They can travel anywhere God sends them.
As can the Son who returned to earth in a new form after his body was killed. He came and went on his own, appeared and vanished in looked rooms. Returned to heaven when he was finished on earth. He can because he is a divine being like he was before he come down to earth. That people don't believe in his preexistent divinity has no beaning on the truth about the Son of God.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
According to scripture he had Glory with the Father in the eternal past and created the world. Was he simply an idea without a body?
That's a very interesting prayer recorded there in John 17. It came just before he was arrested and taken to face the councils and be scourged.

When this same thing was to happen to Jesus' disciples he said to them,

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

I'm wondering if it was the spirit of the Father speaking through Jesus. When the spirit was given to Jesus it/he had not the same glory as it/he does with the Father. The spirit's glory was veiled by the mortal flesh. But as we saw in the transfiguration, Jesus body takes on a glory that is compared to the Father.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
If a man should see God he would die because sinful, fallen man cannot exist in the presence of God. That doesn't apply to angels.

You don't realise, that no Angel, none of the cherubim or Seraphim has actually seen GOD as HE is; meaning in HIS capital size. GOD is the rarest eyes can see. Only Father Adam has.

Who the Angels beheld the image of, is Adam who was made in the image and after the likeness of GOD.

GOD does not reside in any heavens world with HIS creatures; HE is above that kind of livelihood.
 
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Yahcubs777

Active Member
Show me one place where it is written

He that has seen me, has seen the father.
I and my father are one
I proceeded from the father.
I go back to the father and I will send you the comforter
I am the resurrection and the life.
HE is the express image of the invisible GOD. If I do not go, he will not come.
The Most Holy Spirit helps you to pray; which means GOD prays to HIMSELF.
Before Abraham I AM.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld him as one with the glory of the father.

I could go on...
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
That's a very interesting prayer recorded there in John 17. It came just before he was arrested and taken to face the councils and be scourged.

When this same thing was to happen to Jesus' disciples he said to them,

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

I'm wondering if it was the spirit of the Father speaking through Jesus. When the spirit was given to Jesus it/he had not the same glory as it/he does with the Father. The spirit's glory was veiled by the mortal flesh. But as we saw in the transfiguration, Jesus body takes on a glory that is compared to the Father.
Yes, because the spirit of the Son, "the spirit of truth", was pored out upon all flesh after he returned to heaven just as he said he would send it. Its that spirit that guided the apostles.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

En arche ēn ho Logos, kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon, kai Theos ēn o Logos. – John 1:1 (Greek text)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. – John 1:1 (NWT)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1 (KJV)

(Some translations read "the Word was divine.")

“The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word. Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all other things. (John 1:2, 3) The Bible states that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” and that “by means of him all other things were created. Colossians 1:15, 16. -JW.org

Many scholars identify "logos" with God’s wisdom and reason. The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a “word” is an outward expression of a person’s thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, and thus it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the “Word.” Jesus is an outward expression of God’s reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation “a word from God” and the Bible “the Word of God.”

If we understand that the logos is God’s expression—His plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him “in the beginning.” Scripture says that God’s wisdom was “from the beginning” (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No ancient Jew reading Proverbs would think that God’s wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in Proverbs chapter 8. “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion."

The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”). The Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures were being translated into Sahidic Coptic (an ancient Egyptian language) during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on Greek manuscripts which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant versions. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of that time, did not have an indefinite article, Sahidic Coptic does.

ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ
ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ
John 1:1 (Sahidic Coptic text)

Transliteration:
Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje
Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje

Literal English translation: In the beginning existed the word. And the word existed in the presence of God. And a god was the word.

The Coptic translation says ne.u.noute pe p.Saje: "the Word was a god (or, divine)," not "the Word was God." The Coptic language has both indefinite and definite articles in its grammatical structure. If the Sahidic Coptic translators held the doctrine that "the Word was God," or if the Coptic translators understood the Greek text to say "the Word was God," the Coptic language had the grammatical tools to say so. But they did not write "the Word was God." They wrote "the Word was a god."

Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and the country was subsequently Hellenized. Greek influence had been in Egypt for some 500 years by the time those translators began their work. Likely made well before Nicea (325 CE), the Coptic text tells us how early translators interpreted John 1:1, apart from the influence of later dogma and church tradition. The Sahidic Coptic version, the earliest translation of the Greek originals into a language that contained the indefinite article, used that indefinite article at John 1:1: “the Word was a god.”

The NWT of John 1:1 is said to be an incorrect translation. Yet, in rendering John 1:1 from Greek into their own native language, the Coptic scribes came to the same understanding 1,700 years ago.

Who included it in and who decided this is authentic is the issue to consider. People can build a lot of meanings on top of one another.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
Yes, because the spirit of the Son, "the spirit of truth", was pored out upon all flesh after he returned to heaven just as he said he would send it. Its that spirit that guided the apostles.

Then who is Revelation 10:7 speaking about? What about acts 3:19-23? Malachi 4:4-6? Revelation 18:4?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If you aren't going to bother reading what I wrote, why should I bother reading yours? Why even comment?
Well... I have read what you wrote - and I have read similar explanations before.

Many scholars identify "logos" with God’s wisdom and reason.
- "Many scholars" really isn't a good way of saying things. Many scholars also believe it is simply God's word but also believe that Jesus is the manifestation of The Word incarnate.

Rather than simply answering, I gave sites, commentaries et al that simply don't agree with your interpretation

Additionally the NWT was translated by the following people:

Screen Shot 2021-03-16 at 1.29.05 PM.png


So, I'm not sure which scholars we are actually talking about.
 
You don't realise, that no Angel, none of the cherubim or Seraphim has actually seen GOD as HE is; meaning in HIS capital size. GOD is the rarest eyes can see. Only Father Adam has.

Who the Angels beheld the image of, is Adam who was made in the image and after the likeness of GOD.

GOD does not reside in any heavens world with HIS creatures; HE is above that kind of livelihood.
What is your religion? What are your beliefs?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Then who is Revelation 10:7 speaking about? What about acts 3:19-23? Malachi 4:4-6? Revelation 18:4?
Various prophets.

Jesus spoke of the spirit that he would send. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
 
He that has seen me, has seen the father.
I and my father are one
I proceeded from the father.
I go back to the father and I will send you the comforter
I am the resurrection and the life.
HE is the express image of the invisible GOD. If I do not go, he will not come.
The Most Holy Spirit helps you to pray; which means GOD prays to HIMSELF.
Before Abraham I AM.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld him as one with the glory of the father.

I could go on...

Where does it say "coexisting and coeternal"?

The Bible also says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, Gods only begotten son but you ignore that.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

En arche ēn ho Logos, kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon, kai Theos ēn o Logos. – John 1:1 (Greek text)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. – John 1:1 (NWT)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1 (KJV)

(Some translations read "the Word was divine.")

I took a different approach to this, base on my goal of unifying science and religion. The six thousand year estimate of the biblical age of the universe, has the same timing as the invention of written language. The former is dated by science. This is not a coincidence. This parallel would imply that the invention of written language altered the human psyche in a profound way. A new type of human appears.

Picture going to college or high school, at a time when there was no written language. There is no teacher notes on the overhead, no note taking, no books to study, and no tests to take. Everything has to be done by the word of mouth and listening. This is not easy.

The problem that will occur is not everyone will remember the same things the same way. Those who are better at remembering, may not remember everything said. In our study groups, agreement on many things may come down to who yells the louder, as to who is right. Even with reading, notes, and studying, we forget most of what are learn after a few months. The net result is the lessons learned, without writing, will fade away, due to no good way to duplicate the original, and then be able to refresh the fading memory, with anything that is reliability.

Science has shown that civilization had a few starts-up before the first stable civilization formed. All these start-ups were aborted. Without writing, after the creative leaders who knew how to do things, died, the lessons faded and their start up civilization started to regress back to natural.

Once writing was invented, everything changed, since even those with the worse memory had things carved in stone, to teach them and help them remember, compare and refresh. The word God was the first word of this new revolutionary invention. Books were power and they were spirit; alive.

Once people had this unnatural or manmade way to learn, remember and refresh memory, this would have caused repression of instinct. The natural loss of previous memory helps to refresh instincts. One went from fads and rituals, back to real time interaction with the environment.

Once people had a way to counter this natural inertia, via the invention, repression appears. Books were a mixed blessing, since an old book that is obsolete, but force fed to all, can be repressive. This age is when the human ego starts to evolve quickly; secondary center of consciousness. The unconscious mind would also become very active due to the repression; dreams, impulses and visions. The tree of life; instinct became sealed, as humans substituted fixed written knowledge, carved into stone, for instinct.

The bible is about the evolution of human consciousness, from natural in paradise, then into civilization, as the operating system of the human brain was culturally evolved/regressed. Not all paths were free of bugs, with the bible and other religious books, like ancient coding manuals, for the natural human brain's operating system.

For example, Greek mythology evolves from the Titans to the Olympians. The Titans were scary and wild and not very humanoid. This was the early repressed human. The change to the Olympians showed a change in the operating system from the savage impulsive animal-beast-man, to one who was more refined and human; Windows 95 to Windows 98.

Noah's Ark appears to symbolize another update, where the unconscious mind over whelmed the collective human ego; collective loss of soul. The flood was part of an un-install process. Two animals male and female symbolized male and female instinct being saved in the update.

There were other updates. The bible predicts another major update in Revelation. The un-install process is not pretty. Faith is needed to hit the right thought command lines when requested.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
Various prophets.

Jesus spoke of the spirit that he would send. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Yet you think this is the Most Holy Spirit of GOD. Why would GOD need to hear from HIMSELF to teach the people?
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
No, the Son who is also God, is a spiritual presence since ascending into heaven.

The Son of GOD is not GOD. Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence is GOD.

The verse you posted says: And he will speak only what he hears... This is talking about a Prophet.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
The Son of GOD is not GOD. Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence is GOD.

The verse you posted says: And he will speak only what he hears... This is talking about a Prophet.
I disagree with you, so do the apostles who realized his divinity after he returned from the death of his body.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
I disagree with you, so do the apostles who realized his divinity after he returned from the death of his body.

You can disagree with me, it doesn't change HIS true identity. And again I ask you, why would GOD need to hear from HIMSELF to teach the people?

In fact apostle Peter agreed with me, in acts 3:19-23, talking about the Prophet that will restore all things.

Also John the beloved agreed with me in revelation chapters.

Also they never realised anything, HE was still teaching them saying: touch me, a ghost has not physical body like you see me have
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You can disagree with me, it doesn't change HIS true identity. And again I ask you, why would GOD need to hear from HIMSELF to teach the people?

In fact apostle Peter agreed with me, in acts 3:19-23, talking about the Prophet that will restore all things.

Also John the beloved agreed with me in revelation chapters.

Also they never realised anything, HE was still teaching them saying: touch me, a ghost has not physical body like you see me have
Because God the Father has divine sons. They are All God to us. God the Son returned to God the Father and sent his spirit as he promised. The Father and Son are 2 distinct beings.


John 14:15-31
New International Version

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father,and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
 
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