Minimum 15 dollar wage. Meet back burner.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 15, 2021

tarasan said:
Except if the minimum wage increases prices because small businesses can't afford them then they are no better off.

Prices go up over basically anything. Some companies (Disney is an atrocious offender) will even artificially manipulate supply and demand so they can increase prices.
And it's also been found in many studies that wage increases have minimal and negligible impacts on increasing prices.
Does increasing the minimum wage lead to higher prices? | Research Highlights | Upjohn Institute

They also observe that small minimum wage increases do not lead to higher prices and may actually reduce prices. Furthermore, it is also possible that small minimum wage increases could lead to increased employment in low-wage labor markets.

Stevicus · Mar 15, 2021

Twilight Hue said:
Couple of weeks ago but there it is.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/25/15-minimum-wage-decision-biden-covid-relief-bill.html

Moderate Democrats shoot down $15 minimum wage

Of course its still top priority. Right?

How many years has it been now promised since it was first proposed?

Thoughts?

Think it will happen? Or not?

I think if states start setting their own minimum wages above that of the Federal minimum wage, it will reduce any political pressure on Congress to actually raise the minimum wage.

Minimum Wage By State In 2020 & 2021 | Paycor

State 2020 Minimum Wage 2021 Minimum Wage
Alabama $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Alaska $10.19 $10.34
Arizona $12.00 $12.15
Arkansas $10.00 $11.00
California $13.00 $14.00*
Colorado $12.00 $12.32
Connecticut $12.00 $13.00 (effective 8/1/21)
Delaware $9.25 $10.25
Washington D.C. $15.00 $15.00
Florida $8.56 $10.00 (effective 9/30/21)
Georgia $5.15 (Employers subject to Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage.) $5.15 (Employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage)
Hawaii $10.10 $10.10
Idaho $7.25 $7.25
Illinois $10.00 $11.00
Indiana $7.25 $7.25
Iowa $7.25 $7.25
Kansas $7.25 $7.25
Kentucky $7.25 $7.25
Louisiana $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Maine $12.00 $12.15
Maryland $11.00 $11.75**
Massachusetts $12.75 $13.50
Michigan $9.65 $9.65
Minnesota $10.00 $10.08***
Mississippi $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Missouri $9.45 $10.30
Montana $8.65 $8.75
Nebraska $9.00 $9.00
Nevada $8.00 $8.75 (effective 7/1/21)****
New Hampshire $7.25) $7.25
New Jersey $11.00 $12.00*****
New Mexico $9.00 $10.50
New York $11.80 $12.50******
North Carolina $7.25 $7.25
North Dakota $7.25 $7.25
Ohio $8.70 $8.80
Oklahoma $7.25 $7.25
Oregon $12.00 $12.75 (effective 7/1/21)******
Pennsylvania $7.25 $7.25
Rhode Island $10.50 $11.50
South Carolina $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
South Dakota $9.30 $9.45
Tennessee $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Texas $7.25 $7.25
Utah $7.25 $7.25
Vermont $10.96 $11.75
Virginia $7.25 $9.50 (effective 5/1/21)
Washington $13.50 $13.69
West Virginia $8.75 $8.75
Wisconsin $7.25 $7.25
Wyoming $5.15 (Employers subject to Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the Federal minimum wage.) $5.15 (Employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage)

$14.00 rate is for California employers with 26 or more employees. Employers in California with 25 or less employees have a minimum wage of $13.00 per hour. For local minimum wage rules, see our guide to California Minimum Wage by City.

**$11.75 applies to Maryland employers with 15 or more employees. Employers in Maryland with 14 of fewer employees must pay a minimum wage of $11.60 per hour.

***$10.08 rate is for large employers in Minnesota (with annual gross revenues of at least $500,000). Small employers have a minimum wage of $8.21 per hour.

****$8.75 is for Nevada employees who are offered health insurance. Nevada employees who are not offered health insurance must receive $9.75 per hour.

*****$12.00 applies to New Jersey employers who are non-seasonal and with 6 or more employees. Seasonal employees and those working for business who employ 5 or fewer employees must receive $11.00 per hour.

******The increased New York State minimum wage is effective 12/31/2020. Statewide minimum wages apply in areas that are not governed by a higher, local minimum wage ordinance. New York City and Portland Metro are examples of areas—like California—which have local minimum wage rates that exceed the statewide minimum.

Washington DC already has a minimum wage of $15 an hour, so that can be used as a model to see what it would look like. California is at $14 an hour for employers who have 26 or more employees. So, we already have a glance at the kind of impact it's having on the states where the wage is higher.

As to why so many states seem dominated by cheapskates, that's hard to say. The funny thing is, the same people who keep saying that wages and prices should be set by the free market are the same ones who claim they're facing labor shortages (which is why they insist they need to hire undocumented immigrant workers - to do the jobs Americans won't do, apparently). They can't have it both ways, but I'm sure they're going to try to milk it for as long as they can.

It is disappointing that it was a few Democrats who fell out of the fold and blocked the minimum wage increase. One of them was Senator Sinema from Arizona, which is somewhat surprising, since Arizona's minimum wage was increased due to the passage of a ballot proposition in 2016, which incrementally raised the minimum wage year by year to what it is now. So, she knows that the voters of the state support a minimum wage increase, and yet, she opposed it just the same. This could cost her some votes in the next election.

JustGeorge · Mar 15, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
I have wonder how we could realistically implement such a thing, as generally anywhere you are the city costs more than the country. State by state, this really wouldn't be that easy. California is a great example where it's basically two cities and the surrounding areas driving up the average cost of living on paper, whereas tons of other places here don't require one to pee liquid gold to survive. But, LA at least does have a minimum wage higher than the state minimum, so maybe it's not that hard to figure out.

At one point, some folks attempted to let each county in Iowa decide its own minimum wage. I thought that was a splendid idea, as the cost of Des Moines is much much high than some county where the biggest city is only a few thousand people.

Of course, the Republicans turned that down(Iowa's a red state right now). Whatever happened to small government?

I do know Iowa's economy is different than either coast, and I find it interesting that both my overly wealthy relatives and my dirt poor friends cringe at the idea of a $15.00 minimum wage.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 15, 2021

JustGeorge said:
Of course, the Republicans turned that down(Iowa's a red state right now). Whatever happened to small government?

Indiana is basically the same way. It's all "state's rights" and "local government" and especially "limited government," but when the Republicans there want something they'll just run it through, even if it is unpopular and doesn't stand a chance on the ballot (that's how it became right-to-work and started to observe DST again).
And it's the same with the wealthy and poor. One lady (I'm not really friends with her anymore) she is on maternal leave, as is her husband. But because she's a janitor she got less time. Even though she made the baby and pushed him out. But according to her unions are useless and if she has any problems at work she feels she can take it up with them. People I've known, barely scraping by, they vote against their own interest because they fear some lazy bum will leech off the system and get something they didn't work earn.
And myself, at least for me the difference in economy means I am doing better than I was in Indiana.

JustGeorge · Mar 15, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
Indiana is basically the same way. It's all "state's rights" and "local government" and especially "limited government," but when the Republicans there want something they'll just run it through, even if it is unpopular and doesn't stand a chance on the ballot (that's how it became right-to-work and started to observe DST again).
And it's the same with the wealthy and poor. One lady (I'm not really friends with her anymore) she is on maternal leave, as is her husband. But because she's a janitor she got less time. Even though she made the baby and pushed him out. But according to her unions are useless and if she has any problems at work she feels she can take it up with them. People I've known, barely scraping by, they vote against their own interest because they fear some lazy bum will leech off the system and get something they didn't work earn.
And myself, at least for me the difference in economy means I am doing better than I was in Indiana.

Yeah, I've met people like that, too... it confuses me, but that's their right, I guess.

I think the people here that I know personally fear the minimum wage hike for various reasons. Mostly inflation, or because they feel corporations will further mistreat their workers. Inflation is a worry for all, particularly relating to housing, which is already well out of hand. Some worry for the 'mom and pop' shops. I have a friend working at Target that worries they'll chop her position(Target is always looking for more reasons to scale back the amount of employees they have, or the amount of hours they'll give them.)

I'd love to see price caps on stuff... I'm told that's not capitalist, but I don't give a flying poo.

Scott C. · Mar 15, 2021

Twilight Hue said:
Couple of weeks ago but there it is.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/25/15-minimum-wage-decision-biden-covid-relief-bill.html

Moderate Democrats shoot down $15 minimum wage

Of course its still top priority. Right?

How many years has it been now promised since it was first proposed?

Thoughts?

Think it will happen? Or not?

I have mixed emotions on minimum wage. I don't want the wealthy to pay poverty wages just because they can get away with it. On the other hand, I see absolutely no reason to believe that an employer is obligated to provide a "living wage". I assume by living wage we mean, for example, enough pay so that a full time employee, single, sole breadwinner in the family, two kids, can live above the poverty level. The amount required varies drastically by geography. In some areas $15 per hour, 40 hours per week, would not support a family of three above the poverty level.

If I start up a business, I may not have the income to pay $15 per hour. I would have to shutdown my business rather than pay that amount. I see nothing wrong with my posting a job add that says "I can't afford to pay $15 per hour. If you are the sole source of income for your family of three, you will not make a living wage with me. Please do not apply. I'm looking to hire someone for $10 per hour who needs some extra cash, but not to sustain life. The position requires no prior training, skills, or experience. Are you in high school and want gas money or date money? Does you spouse already work and provide enough, but you want a few extra bucks for clothes and entertainment? If yes, then please apply." There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. I find it wrong to believe that all businesses are morally obligated and should be forced by the government to pay enough to support any particular level of life style for any particularly sized family.

tarasan · Mar 15, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
Prices go up over basically anything. Some companies (Disney is an atrocious offender) will even artificially manipulate supply and demand so they can increase prices.
And it's also been found in many studies that wage increases have minimal and negligible impacts on increasing prices.
Does increasing the minimum wage lead to higher prices? | Research Highlights | Upjohn Institute

Right the only rise they voted in that source was mcdonald's I have already agreed that billionaire enterprises can absorb it I'm talking about regular businesses.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 15, 2021

Scott C. said:
I see nothing wrong with my posting a job add that says "I can't afford to pay $15 per hour. If you are the sole source of income for your family of three, you will not make a living wage with me. Please do not apply. I'm looking to hire someone for $10 per hour who needs some extra cash, but not to sustain life.

Then everyone would do that and minimum wage would be powerless and nothing more than ink on paper.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 15, 2021

tarasan said:
Right the only rise they voted in that source was mcdonald's I have already agreed that billionaire enterprises can absorb it I'm talking about regular businesses.

Read it again.

In a new Upjohn Institute working paper, Daniel MacDonald and Eric Nilsson, of California State University, Bernardino, advance the literature on price effects of minimum wage increases.
...
By looking at changes in restaurant food pricing during the period of 1978–2015, MacDonald and Nilsson find that prices rose by just 0.36 percent for every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage

JustGeorge · Mar 15, 2021

Scott C. said:
I have mixed emotions on minimum wage. I don't want the wealthy to pay poverty wages just because they can get away with it. On the other hand, I see absolutely no reason to believe that an employer is obligated to provide a "living wage". I assume by living wage we mean, for example, enough pay so that a full time employee, single, sole breadwinner in the family, two kids, can live above the poverty level. The amount required varies drastically by geography. In some areas $15 per hour, 40 hours per week, would not support a family of three above the poverty level.

If I start up a business, I may not have the income to pay $15 per hour. I would have to shutdown my business rather than pay that amount. I see nothing wrong with my posting a job add that says "I can't afford to pay $15 per hour. If you are the sole source of income for your family of three, you will not make a living wage with me. Please do not apply. I'm looking to hire someone for $10 per hour who needs some extra cash, but not to sustain life. The position requires no prior training, skills, or experience. Are you in high school and want gas money or date money? Does you spouse already work and provide enough, but you want a few extra bucks for clothes and entertainment? If yes, then please apply." There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. I find it wrong to believe that all businesses are morally obligated and should be forced by the government to pay enough to support any particular level of life style for any particularly sized family.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think in many cases, if a business owner can afford to pay their workers a livable wage, they should. Its just general human decency. There is no reason a business owner should sit in their multimillion dollar house while those that make their business work struggle to put a roof over their head or to keep the utilities on. This is sheer greed.

In new business ventures, this isn't always possible, I understand. Though finding the employees you speak of is getting more difficult. There aren't as many high schoolers out looking for work. Schooling takes enough out of you as it is. Most people seeking an income now need it, its not allowance money.

I also think it would do good to look at what poverty is and what it means in the US. Is everything we consider a need really a need? (The gadgetry and payment plans come to mind.) Is poverty here caused by lack of income, or unfair prices for true needs? (Medicine and medical care come to mind.) Are our social safety networks set up to help, or to keep one in poverty? I remember being on Food Stamps in my younger years. You were not allowed to have any savings. If you had savings, they cut you off. Great. Now I spent my last 200 dollars on food, and I'm broke again, so I have to sign up for Food Stamps again. No one wins. It makes no sense. How can we restructure society to help uplift those in true poverty, and not keep them in the same vicious cycle? A fair minimum wage would help here(though I agree that the geography is too vast to make a one size fits all wage).

Estro Felino · Mar 16, 2021

AFAIK in my country it is 9 euros or something per hour.
When I used to teach French to middle schoolers (tutoring) I was paid 7 euros per hour...because they were little kids.

Since I do know that in the US the cost of living is much higher...I think that reducing it to 15 euros can be unfair right now.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 16, 2021

America: A country who used to do what nobody else was doing because it was hard, because it tested the character and strength of the nation.
America: A country who now cries and whines about doing what everybody else is doing because it's too hard.

exchemist · Mar 16, 2021

Nakosis said:
Wasn't being disingenuous, just being less than assertive.
The definition of socialism is social ownership of production not state ownership. Not everyone agrees on that definition.

Massive government control is not obvious in socialism but it seems the direction many are heading.

In practice it has meant state control, though, everywhere it has been tried on a large scale. There have been, and are, a few cooperatives around, it is true, but for a government to implement socialism at country level involves state expropriation, by law, of private enterprise.

But tell me, who are these many that are heading that way? Who is advocating state or social ownership of the means of production? I see little sign of it.

All I see is the quite normal, perennial argument about where to draw the boundary between state activity and private enterprise. That boundary exists in every society. To take an extreme example, no country outsources its military, its police or its tax collection to private enterprise. Moving the boundary a bit is not introducing socialism, so long as the means of production are left alone.

Some people in the USA are quite mad when it comes to this issue. When I lived in Houston I knew people who thought putting in the new tram line was "communism" - and said so, in those very words! Daft.

Actually, in the US context, the obvious candidate to be moved within the boundary of state control is the health system. At the moment it is a classic example of a "broken market" and in consequence is grossly expensive, inequitable and fails to give people the necessary assurance they will be looked after if they fall ill. Doing that is not socialism, by any stretch of the imagination.

Stevicus · Mar 16, 2021

exchemist said:
But tell me, who are these many that are heading that way? Who is advocating state or social ownership of the means of production? I see little sign of it.

There are some, but you probably won't see them on the mainstream media anytime soon. The same people who would think a tram in Houston is "communism" are the same people controlling Wall Street, the media, and the US government. Therefore, the subject isn't even open for debate on a national scale, mainly because the powers that be don't want it open for debate. The most they'll ever entertain is talk about raising the minimum wage, but it rarely goes beyond that.

All I see is the quite normal, perennial argument about where to draw the boundary between state activity and private enterprise. That boundary exists in every society. To take an extreme example, no country outsources its military, its police or its tax collection to private enterprise. Moving the boundary a bit is not introducing socialism, so long as the means of production are left alone.

Some people in the USA are quite mad when it comes to this issue. When I lived in Houston I knew people who thought putting in the new tram line was "communism" - and said so, in those very words! Daft.

The attitude you describe here is quite common in the US. Remember, it wasn't too long ago that the same ilk thought the Beatles were a communist plot. This is the capitalist mind in action. This is how they think.

Also, I would point out that the military has used private contractors (much of this was revealed after the Abu Ghraib scandal). They also have private defense contractors whose greed has led to bloated defense budgets (I'm convinced the defense industry is some kind of la-la land where toilet seats cost $15,000). There are privatized prisons as well, not to mention a great many private security firms at work. Not sure about tax collection, although there are companies such as Turbo Tax and H&R Block who provide services which should be provided by the government (if it was an honest government which supported the interests of the people).

Actually, in the US context, the obvious candidate to be moved within the boundary of state control is the health system. At the moment it is a classic example of a "broken market" and in consequence is grossly expensive, inequitable and fails to give people the necessary assurance they will be looked after if they fall ill. Doing that is not socialism, by any stretch of the imagination.

Socialism is probably the only solution, though. You've illustrated quite clearly the reasons why capitalists can't be trusted or reasoned with. As you pointed out, they think public transportation is "communism," so how can anyone reason with mentalities such as that? They're the same people who spend top dollar on fashion, art, multiple mansions, private jets, and yachts, and then claim they "can't afford" to pay their employees a livable wage. The same government which bends over backwards to appease capitalists and make them rich claims that it "can't afford" a better healthcare system.

Nakosis · Mar 16, 2021

exchemist said:
In practice it has meant state control, though, everywhere it has been tried on a large scale. There have been, and are, a few cooperatives around, it is true, but for a government to implement socialism at country level involves state expropriation, by law, of private enterprise.

But tell me, who are these many that are heading that way? Who is advocating state or social ownership of the means of production? I see little sign of it.

All I see is the quite normal, perennial argument about where to draw the boundary between state activity and private enterprise. That boundary exists in every society. To take an extreme example, no country outsources its military, its police or its tax collection to private enterprise. Moving the boundary a bit is not introducing socialism, so long as the means of production are left alone.

Some people in the USA are quite mad when it comes to this issue. When I lived in Houston I knew people who thought putting in the new tram line was "communism" - and said so, in those very words! Daft.

Actually, in the US context, the obvious candidate to be moved within the boundary of state control is the health system. At the moment it is a classic example of a "broken market" and in consequence is grossly expensive, inequitable and fails to give people the necessary assurance they will be looked after if they fall ill. Doing that is not socialism, by any stretch of the imagination.

Ok, but I was responding to your comment about this proposal that it was socialist. Just trying to understand the socialist connection.

Nakosis · Mar 16, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Well, you're a libertarian, I'm a humanist -- clearly we see things a bit differently.

I'm reminded (oddly) about the ongoing argument that people in prison, if they otherwise meet the vaccination criteria, should receive the vaccine if there's somebody on the outside who hasn't received one. This is one of those places where I have to think carefully, but eventually say, "the prisoner is duly serving his sentence -- if he is in a risk category that warrants it, his right to the vaccine is not less than that of someone who has not committed a crime but is at lesser risk."

I know that a lot of people will disagree with me (probably in somewhat less calm terms than I'm using, ), but I can live with that.

I and most of my family having already had covid, don't really want to see anyone go through it. I'm not going to begrudge anyone getting the vaccine whomever they happen to be.

Twilight Hue · Mar 16, 2021

Stevicus said:
I think if states start setting their own minimum wages above that of the Federal minimum wage, it will reduce any political pressure on Congress to actually raise the minimum wage.

Minimum Wage By State In 2020 & 2021 | Paycor

State 2020 Minimum Wage 2021 Minimum Wage
Alabama $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Alaska $10.19 $10.34
Arizona $12.00 $12.15
Arkansas $10.00 $11.00
California $13.00 $14.00*
Colorado $12.00 $12.32
Connecticut $12.00 $13.00 (effective 8/1/21)
Delaware $9.25 $10.25
Washington D.C. $15.00 $15.00
Florida $8.56 $10.00 (effective 9/30/21)
Georgia $5.15 (Employers subject to Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage.) $5.15 (Employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage)
Hawaii $10.10 $10.10
Idaho $7.25 $7.25
Illinois $10.00 $11.00
Indiana $7.25 $7.25
Iowa $7.25 $7.25
Kansas $7.25 $7.25
Kentucky $7.25 $7.25
Louisiana $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Maine $12.00 $12.15
Maryland $11.00 $11.75**
Massachusetts $12.75 $13.50
Michigan $9.65 $9.65
Minnesota $10.00 $10.08***
Mississippi $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Missouri $9.45 $10.30
Montana $8.65 $8.75
Nebraska $9.00 $9.00
Nevada $8.00 $8.75 (effective 7/1/21)****
New Hampshire $7.25) $7.25
New Jersey $11.00 $12.00*****
New Mexico $9.00 $10.50
New York $11.80 $12.50******
North Carolina $7.25 $7.25
North Dakota $7.25 $7.25
Ohio $8.70 $8.80
Oklahoma $7.25 $7.25
Oregon $12.00 $12.75 (effective 7/1/21)******
Pennsylvania $7.25 $7.25
Rhode Island $10.50 $11.50
South Carolina $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
South Dakota $9.30 $9.45
Tennessee $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum) $7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)
Texas $7.25 $7.25
Utah $7.25 $7.25
Vermont $10.96 $11.75
Virginia $7.25 $9.50 (effective 5/1/21)
Washington $13.50 $13.69
West Virginia $8.75 $8.75
Wisconsin $7.25 $7.25
Wyoming $5.15 (Employers subject to Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the Federal minimum wage.) $5.15 (Employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage)

Washington DC already has a minimum wage of $15 an hour, so that can be used as a model to see what it would look like. California is at $14 an hour for employers who have 26 or more employees. So, we already have a glance at the kind of impact it's having on the states where the wage is higher.

As to why so many states seem dominated by cheapskates, that's hard to say. The funny thing is, the same people who keep saying that wages and prices should be set by the free market are the same ones who claim they're facing labor shortages (which is why they insist they need to hire undocumented immigrant workers - to do the jobs Americans won't do, apparently). They can't have it both ways, but I'm sure they're going to try to milk it for as long as they can.

It is disappointing that it was a few Democrats who fell out of the fold and blocked the minimum wage increase. One of them was Senator Sinema from Arizona, which is somewhat surprising, since Arizona's minimum wage was increased due to the passage of a ballot proposition in 2016, which incrementally raised the minimum wage year by year to what it is now. So, she knows that the voters of the state support a minimum wage increase, and yet, she opposed it just the same. This could cost her some votes in the next election.

I can't even imagine living on 5.15 an hour.

It's like working 2 hours just to buy one crappy cheap combo meal at McDonald's in NY.

Minimum 15 dollar wage. Meet back burner.

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