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Choose to Believe?

1213

Well-Known Member
So in other words, you did not choose your beliefs.

Please explain why do you believe so?

I believe that murder is wrong, like in the case of the death penalty,

Actually, murder is unlawful killing. Death penalty is usually based on law, and therefore not unlawful and not murder. Still, you could think it is wrong, but there is really difference between those words.

and yet, you're saying that it's not useful for me to believe in the existence of God. Why is that? According to you, understanding what's right and why it's good, is the reason why it should be useful for me.

I think you have not understood what I say. Understanding what is right and good doesn’t really depend on do you believe in His existence. That is why believing in His existence is not crucial.

Explain to me why it's right to kill another person, lie and steal in one particular situation, but it's wrong to do the same in a different situation?

I don’t think lying and stealing are right in any case. And killing, I accept, if God kills, because He has given life and therefore has also right to decide how long life He gives. There is really no obligation why He must give more than what He likes to give. And by what the Bible tells, God gives eternal life only for righteous. I think it is good, because the unrighteous ones would make life eternal suffering, if they could live forever.

Explain why it's wrong to commit a global genocide of the vast majority of the Earth's population, or why it's wrong to punish a person because his ancestors/forefathers did something that was wrong, or why it's wrong for a human being to own another human being as property?

People have no right for any of those, therefore it is wrong, if people would do those.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
The Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence. You have to ignore the many failings of the Bible to support your beliefs. In fact I am rather sure that you cannot honestly deal with the failings of the Bible. It fails scientifically, it fails based upon prophecy, it fails morally, the list goes on.

That is only your subjective opinion, not a provable fact.

But, Bible is also evidence, if it shows qualities that indicates that it can’t be purely from humans.

For example, knowledge of this world and future that people could not have without God. Also goodness, wisdom and truthfulness that is not observable in people commonly, is one evidence for God’s influence in it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is only your subjective opinion, not a provable fact.

But, Bible is also evidence, if it shows qualities that indicates that it can’t be purely from humans.

For example, knowledge of this world and future that people could not have without God. Also goodness, wisdom and truthfulness that is not observable in people commonly, is one evidence for God’s influence in it.
Wrong. This is an attempt to shift the burden of proof by you. Until you justify the Bible as a source it is only the claim.

There is no need of a god for morals or goodness. This has been demonstrated time and time again. It is well understood by evolutionary biologist. You are just using a God of the Gaps fallacy. You do not understand how morals arose so you claim "God did it".
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
We choose because we have free will to choose, but WHY we choose is another matter.
I think we choose to believe something because we are convinced it is true, just as we choose to disbelieve something because we are not convinced it is true.
Beliefs can change as new information comes in IF one is willing to look at new information.

That was my point. Being convinced is believing. You consider evidence presented and choose to either believe or not.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
And yet, you failed to demonstrate that. All you did was give examples of things that one can choose to do or not do, then passed it off as if you had addressed the beliefs, but in actuality, you didn't.

The belief in gravity was raised and how it effects the choice to not step off a precipice. Instead of addressing that particular belief, you went and talked about "choosing" to not die, which has nothing to do with the belief in gravity.

Good grief
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Don't be ridiculous. We're dealing with evidence and facts regarding everything in our life, and we either believe something or we don't.
I am not being ridiculous. The fact is that we do have good evidence for gravity. There is no reliable evidence for a god.

If you want to claim that there is a god the burden of proof is upon you.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I am not being ridiculous. The fact is that we do have good evidence for gravity. There is no reliable evidence for a god.

If you want to claim that there is a god the burden of proof is upon you.

The Bible has plenty of evidence to prove it is true based on fulfilled prophecy. YOU have chosen to NOT believe it. The burden of proof there is a God, is not on me. God himself will prove it when he returns. Of course for those who haven't believed and obeyed him it will be too late by then.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I don't "believe" in people who walk on hot coals. I know how it's done, I know those coals are not good conductors of heat, I know the heat the feet are exposed to isn't as much as what people think, I know there is generally a layer of ash between the coal and feet to help insulate the feet, and I know with a brisk stroll down a path of hot coals poses a minimal risk of severe burns or injury.
Gravity, however, there is no trickery in that one. And, again, no belief necessary. If I drop a bowling ball over my foot, I know the ball will crush my foot. I don't believe that, I just know it will happen based on what we know of (and have personally experienced) gravity and how it functions.
And on the issue of choice, I would say most probably put no effort into it in order to make a choice. Like myself, people in America are generally raised in a Christian family. I didn't chose that. I went along with what I was taught and raised with, as people normally do. There was really never a choice until I left it. And even then, it could be argued if it really was a choice or not. A continued existence of misery and yearning for death, or a life free of the ideological toxins that left me having suicidal thoughts? Self preservation is an instinct, after all. And that says nothing of the stress felt learning I had been lied to about a great many things by church leaders and literature.
So was it a choice? I'm not so sure, as it may have been the automated response of a shocked mind rejecting the source of misery.


How silly - if you know or think something will happen that means you believe it. But whether you choose to believe something or not doesn't change the facts. It's either true or it isn't.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Bible has plenty of evidence to prove it is true based on fulfilled prophecy. YOU have chosen to NOT believe it. The burden of proof there is a God, is not on me. God himself will prove it when he returns. Of course for those who haven't believed and obeyed him it will be too late by then.
Nope. In fact if one takes a rational approach to the Bible it only has failed prophecies. If you ignore the failed prophecies you cannot use the supposedly fulfilled one.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
How silly - if you know or think something will happen that means you believe it. But whether you choose to believe something or not doesn't change the facts. It's either true or it isn't.
I gave examples when I don't think something will happen, I know it will happen. I think and believe I can win money playing poker because I often do and have a good grasp of math involved, but the cards are random so sometimes I don't so I can't say I know I will. Even the best pros can end up on a downer.
But, when I build an electrical circuit I know what is going to happen. We have the math to prove what will happen. Belief is simply not a factor given in this example as I am working with a few of the laws of nature that have not changed or failed us since we discovered them.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence.
I see it another way. The Bible is the evidence for Christianity and Jesus and the Bible has various claims in it.
If you do not accept the Bible as evidence you are SOL, as far as Christianity and Jesus are concerned, because there is not OTHER evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God himself will prove it when he returns. Of course for those who haven't believed and obeyed him it will be too late by then.
Of course that would apply to everyone who has rejected Baha'u'llah, if He was the return of Christ.

My beliefs are just as valid as yours, actually even more valid, because I believe in something that has already happened and I can prove that it happened by reading the Bible prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled, whereas Christians keep waiting for something they believe is going to happen, and they do not even have the Bible to support that belief. In fact, the Bible refutes the belief that the same Jesus will ever return to earth.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I see it another way. The Bible is the evidence for Christianity and Jesus and the Bible has various claims in it.
If you do not accept the Bible as evidence you are SOL, as far as Christianity and Jesus are concerned, because there is not OTHER evidence.
That is only because believers have no reliable evidence. They have to settle for rather poor grade stuff.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How silly - if you know or think something will happen that means you believe it. But whether you choose to believe something or not doesn't change the facts. It's either true or it isn't.
That is absolutely right. Whether Christians choose to believe that Baha'u'lalh was the return of Christ or not does not change the facts. It is either true or it isn't.

There are several possibilities as to why Christians do not even bother to look into the claims of Baha'u'llah.
Below are a few that come to mind, I am sure there are many more.

1. They are so sure they are right about Jesus returning and the rest of their beliefs so they see no need to look at anything else.

2. They would not even want to know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be -- even if He was -- because then they would have to change what they had believed was true, often for their entire life, and then they'd have to rearrange their lives to accommodate a new religion.

3. They are afraid they might get taken in by Baha'u'llah who could be a false prophet and lead them away from Jesus on which case they would lose their salvation.

But obviously there have been some Christians who have been able to overcome those hurdles, since most of the Baha'is in the Western world were formerly Christians.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Of course that would apply to everyone who has rejected Baha'u'llah, if He was the return of Christ.

My beliefs are just as valid as yours, actually even more valid, because I believe in something that has already happened and I can prove that it happened by reading the Bible prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled, whereas Christians keep waiting for something they believe is going to happen, and they do not even have the Bible to support that belief. In fact, the Bible refutes the belief that the same Jesus will ever return to earth.

Nonsense
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Your annoyance and frustration whenever someone clearly shows how/why your argument is flawed, is a good reason for you to read up on logic and reevaluate your argument.

How have you clearly shown, that we don't make a choice to believe or not believe in something based on the facts, evidence, and experience we are presented with?

I said good grief, because your logic seems ridiculous.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...There is no need of a god for morals or goodness. This has been demonstrated time and time again. ...

Please tell, how it has been demonstrated? Unfortunately, it seems people, without God, are “moral” only if it is beneficial for them.
 
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