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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Many points to be made here:
a. Jesus did not have leprosy.

b. In the same passage in Sanhedrin, multiple names are given for the Mashiach. None of them are "Jesus" or anything remotely similar. They are: Yinon, Menachem ben Chizkiyah, Shiloh and/or Chaninah.

c. At the end of the list, the sages give him the title "חיוורא דבי רבי". It has been pointed out that this חיוורא of the house of Rebbe was a real person. In the Jerusalem Talmud Chagigah 2:1, it says: "תלמיד וותיק היה לו לרבי ודרש פרק אחד במעשה המרכבה ולא הסכימה דעתו של רבי ולקה בשחין". Now I'll explain. "חיוורא דבי רבי" means "the stricken of the house of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince". The Yerushalmi relates who this person was: He was a student of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince who studied advanced mystical teachings improperly, and for this was struck with a form of boils (as in "the plague of boils"). Yes, one could call this leprosy, if one so chooses. Some think that this addition by the sages was a joke, after a chain of guesses of what the Mashiach's name is. This is open to discussion. But in any case, "leper scholar" is not the full story. It's missionary deceit and twisting of the Talmud. It's quite a pathetic way to attempt to prove one's religion is true. But hey, Paul did it, right?

d. As we've explained, the real term is "the stricken/afflicted/leper of the house of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince". This is not Jesus at all: 1. Jesus was born long before Rabbi Yehudah. 2. Rabbi Yehudah the Prince, while a descendant of David, this was from one of his female ancestors. From his father's side, he was of the tribe of Benjamin, and as we all know, Christians claim Jesus was a "direct" descendant of David. 3. Jesus had no known connection to the house of the prince of his time. 4. Jesus was not stricken by any sort of sickness (except, possibly, a mental one).

e. Most importantly, with regards to your claim, going back to the teaching of the sages, calling the Mashiach "the stricken of the house of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince", and basing it off of the verse in Isaiah 53, as I already pointed out in post #533:

Yes, the sages purposely took the verse out of context. I suppose it's exceedingly ironic that missionaries then proceeded to take their words out of context. Funny how that happens sometimes.

f. What are your thought about the previous portion of the Talmudic text, in which Rabbi Hillel (not the same as Hillel the Elder) says: "Rabbi Hillel, who says: There is no Messiah coming for the Jewish people, as they already ate from him, as all the prophecies relating to the Messiah were already fulfilled during the days of Hezekiah"?

The Sanhedrin interpretations of the BIble are no different from those of pastors and priests. They are based off of interpretations of people.

That the Talmud mentions someone who was stricken and afflicted is because the Old Testament prophecies mention the Messiah being stricken and afflicted.

From Joseph's side, Jesus was descended from Solomon. From Mary's side, he was descended from Nathan.

Isaiah 53 doesn't mention Rabbi Yehudah the Prince.

I believe that the Jewish writings outside the Tanakh that talk about the suffering servant are based off of the Tanakh prophecies of the Messiah.

I believe that the Messiah came already and will come again and people missed his coming. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Messiah. The ones that it seems like he didn't fulfill, will be fulfilled at his second coming.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Messiah. The ones that it seems like he didn't fulfill, will be fulfilled at his second coming
Just slow down a second and think about the logic of what you just wrote. Think hard.

Claim -- Jesus fulfilled ALL...
Concern -- there are ones it SEEMS like he didn't fulfill
Resolution -- those WILL be fulfilled.

How can your initial claim and the resolution both be true?

How can your concern and the resolution be reconciled -- if it only "seems" like they weren't fulfilled then your claim is that, in fact they were. So then why resolve by saying that they WILL be fulfilled?

Seriously -- stop and think...
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Laws aren't just based off of what's in the legal code, but also legal precedent, common sense.
Legal systems often include precedents which are an application of preexisting law.
Civil laws might be based on what you call "common sense" but divine legal systems are not.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Leviticus or Deuteronomy?

Opposite gender friends don't mingle as much as relatives.
Sure they do. Maybe not in your family, but in mine they do. Your generalized claim is shown to be wrong in the specific and therefore fails as a claim.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Sure they do. Maybe not in your family, but in mine they do. Your generalized claim is shown to be wrong in the specific and therefore fails as a claim.

Married couples calling friends of the opposite sex being inappropriate has to do with that type of behavior is not appropriate in general.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Legal systems often include precedents which are an application of preexisting law.
Civil laws might be based on what you call "common sense" but divine legal systems are not.

Leviticus and Deuteronomy do not exclude step family and cousins from being close relatives. There are things that aren't mentioned in the Bible, but we know from common sense that they are wrong.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The prophecy in Genesis is consistent with the second coming of Jesus. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Your source has a problem:

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.

They skipped Isaiah 53:7, and Isaiah 53:10....

Jesus was not silent and did not see his seed. Jesus is not the suffering servant. Even if I accept that the remaining 4 verses are messianic, they don't match the gospel account.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Just slow down a second and think about the logic of what you just wrote. Think hard.

Claim -- Jesus fulfilled ALL...
Concern -- there are ones it SEEMS like he didn't fulfill
Resolution -- those WILL be fulfilled.

How can your initial claim and the resolution both be true?

How can your concern and the resolution be reconciled -- if it only "seems" like they weren't fulfilled then your claim is that, in fact they were. So then why resolve by saying that they WILL be fulfilled?

Seriously -- stop and think...

The second coming of the Messiah is not explicitly mentioned in the Tanakh but it's underlied. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Your source has a problem:



They skipped Isaiah 53:7, and Isaiah 53:10....

Jesus was not silent and did not see his seed. Jesus is not the suffering servant. Even if I accept that the remaining 4 verses are messianic, they don't match the gospel account.

Isaiah 53:7 and Isaiah 53:10 is consistent with the second coming of Jesus.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see hisseed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Married couples calling friends of the opposite sex being inappropriate has to do with that type of behavior is not appropriate in general.
So you think it is inappropriate. You are move further and further away from an discussion of Jewish law.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Leviticus and Deuteronomy do not exclude step family and cousins from being close relatives. There are things that aren't mentioned in the Bible, but we know from common sense that they are wrong.
Lev and Deut, by not including, do exclude step family. That's how the law works. There are things that you think are "common sense" but which are neither common, nor sensical, and are certainly not related to Jewish law. Do you even care what your initial claim was? You have stopped even trying to prove it.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Your source has a problem:



They skipped Isaiah 53:7, and Isaiah 53:10....

Jesus was not silent and did not see his seed. Jesus is not the suffering servant. Even if I accept that the remaining 4 verses are messianic, they don't match the gospel account.

Jesus did not resist being arrested by the Romans. Jesus didn't respond to everything that people told him. John 19:10

Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Jesus did not resist being arrested by the Romans. Jesus didn't respond to everything that people told him. John 19:10
But he cried out on the cross.
Matthew 27:46
Mark 15:34​

In Isaiah 53 (and Isaiah 42) the servant suffers silently.
 
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