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Did Jesus Christ actually die?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32)

Buddha said at the end of his life, "I don't even know if there is a God. I am still searching for truth." The Koran, written many years after Mohammed's death, quotes Mohammed as saying, "I am in need of forgiveness." But listen to what Jesus says:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

At this point, when Jesus says that He is the only way to heaven, we have a dilemma. We have to decide who and what Jesus really is: a lunatic, a liar, or the Lord.
You need to answer this question:

Why trust the Bible in the first place?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You need to answer this question:

Why trust the Bible in the first place?

Skeptics say that the Bible was written by men and is therefore fallible. They want to discredit it, because it's a massive wet blanket that falls on everything they love. Nitpickers come up with things such as the Bible saying if you wear cotton and wool you will go to hell, or a raped woman is forced to marry the rapist. These are actually straw men. For them, the ends justify any means. The ultimate end for these nitpickers is to dismantle the reality of hell. In order to do so they must discredit Scripture.

No matter what anyone believes about the Bible, it is God's Word, and the godly should approach it as such. it is full of mystery with precious gold nuggets of truth hidden in its soil. But skeptics have no inclination to dig for gold; all they see is dirt. Don't be like them. Dig for unseen gold, because if you don't dig you won't find it. God's word is a gold mine, and even Jesus spoke of searching the Scriptures (see John 5:39).
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Take, for example, 2 Samuel 21:10. King David gave seven men to be executed, to appease an unjust incident that had occurred in the past. We don't know much about these men, but we are told about the reaction of one of their mothers: "Now Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it for herself on the rock, from the beginning of harvest until the late rain poured on them from heaven. And she did not allow the birds of the air to rest on them by day nor the beasts of the field by night." This is just a meaningless story to the dirt finder. He sees only a bloodthirsty king doing something that makes no sense and a grieving mother scaring away birds. But those who dig for gold beneath the soil understand that this woman did what the church should be doing. Her name means "hot coal," or a stone used in cooking. We are called "lively stones" (1 Peter 2:5-9 KJV), who, clothed in the sackcloth of humility, rest upon the Rock of ages-Jesus Christ, the foundation of our faith. We should be imploring God to send the latter rain upon the harvest. "Birds of the air" are often metaphoric of the demonic realm (see Luke 8:5, 12; Genesis 15:11; Deuteronomy 28:26; Revelation 18:2), which we are to hold back through prayer.

Jesus said that the Old Testament was about Him. Jonah was swallowed by a great fish and then spit out onto the land, and Jesus was swallowed by death and then resurrected. Joseph was betrayed by his brothers and then exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh, and Jesus was betrayed by His brethren and then exalted to the right hand of God. Abraham offered his promised son, and God offered Jesus, His only-begotten Son. God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock to shelter him from the wrath, and Jesus was the Rock of ages cleft for me to save me from the wrath.

Those who look for dirt will find it. God gives the proud just enough soil to bury themselves.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skeptics say that the Bible was written by men and is therefore fallible. They want to discredit it, because it's a massive wet blanket that falls on everything they love. Nitpickers come up with things such as the Bible saying if you wear cotton and wool you will go to hell, or a raped woman is forced to marry the rapist. These are actually straw men. For them, the ends justify any means. The ultimate end for these nitpickers is to dismantle the reality of hell. In order to do so they must discredit Scripture.

No matter what anyone believes about the Bible, it is God's Word, and the godly should approach it as such. it is full of mystery with precious gold nuggets of truth hidden in its soil. But skeptics have no inclination to dig for gold; all they see is dirt. Don't be like them. Dig for unseen gold, because if you don't dig you won't find it. God's word is a gold mine, and even Jesus spoke of searching the Scriptures (see John 5:39).
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Take, for example, 2 Samuel 21:10. King David gave seven men to be executed, to appease an unjust incident that had occurred in the past. We don't know much about these men, but we are told about the reaction of one of their mothers: "Now Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it for herself on the rock, from the beginning of harvest until the late rain poured on them from heaven. And she did not allow the birds of the air to rest on them by day nor the beasts of the field by night." This is just a meaningless story to the dirt finder. He sees only a bloodthirsty king doing something that makes no sense and a grieving mother scaring away birds. But those who dig for gold beneath the soil understand that this woman did what the church should be doing. Her name means "hot coal," or a stone used in cooking. We are called "lively stones" (1 Peter 2:5-9 KJV), who, clothed in the sackcloth of humility, rest upon the Rock of ages-Jesus Christ, the foundation of our faith. We should be imploring God to send the latter rain upon the harvest. "Birds of the air" are often metaphoric of the demonic realm (see Luke 8:5, 12; Genesis 15:11; Deuteronomy 28:26; Revelation 18:2), which we are to hold back through prayer.

Jesus said that the Old Testament was about Him. Jonah was swallowed by a great fish and then spit out onto the land, and Jesus was swallowed by death and then resurrected. Joseph was betrayed by his brothers and then exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh, and Jesus was betrayed by His brethren and then exalted to the right hand of God. Abraham offered his promised son, and God offered Jesus, His only-begotten Son. God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock to shelter him from the wrath, and Jesus was the Rock of ages cleft for me to save me from the wrath.

Those who look for dirt will find it. God gives the proud just enough soil to bury themselves.
Sorry, you do not get to claim it is God's word without evidence. You might as well claim that the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is God's word.


How do you test the Bible?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Sorry, you do not get to claim it is God's word without evidence. You might as well claim that the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is God's word.


How do you test the Bible?

The fact that the Creator exists is axiomatic. Everything we see and can't see, from birds, flowers, trees, and seasons to wind, air, love, and laughter scream of the genius of God's creative hand. Are you married? Is there any evidence that would change your mind about the existence of your wife? What sort of arrogance, then, would I have if I began offering evidence that you didn't know her? So it is with the Christian. We know the Lord. Jesus said, "This is eternal life, that they may know you, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent" (John 17:3).
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The fact that the Creator exists is axiomatic. Everything we see and can't see, from birds, flowers, trees, and seasons to wind, air, love, and laughter scream of the genius of God's creative hand. Are you married? Is there any evidence that would change your mind about the existence of your wife? What sort of arrogance, then, would I have if I began offering evidence that you didn't know her? So it is with the Christian. We know the Lord. Jesus said, "This is eternal life, that they may know you, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent" (John 17:3).
Nope. It is far from axiomatic. That is the claim of people with a false belief. And even if there was a creator you would have to prove that it was your God that created the world. Until you do so the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a far superior creator. He did not screw up in his creation.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Nope. It is far from axiomatic. That is the claim of people with a false belief. And even if there was a creator you would have to prove that it was your God that created the world. Until you do so the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a far superior creator. He did not screw up in his creation.

The God of the Bible is the God who wants all of his creation saved.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The God of the Bible is the God who wants all of his creation saved.
You need to read it again. Of course that does not help you. Everything in the Flying Spaghetti Monster's creation is "saved". Actually there is no need to be saved. You start with a false belief there.

How would you test the Bible?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You need to read it again. Of course that does not help you. Everything in the Flying Spaghetti Monster's creation is "saved". Actually there is no need to be saved. You start with a false belief there.

How would you test the Bible?

The remarkable unity of the entire Bible, both within and between the Old and New Testaments, is a powerful apologetic, as are the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies that are fulfilled in the New Testament. The more we read the Bible, the more we discover its intrinsic inspiration.

The New Testament's historical reliability is shown in the authenticity of the New Testament documents, the credibility of its writers, non-Christian sources corroborating Jesus' existence, and archaeological evidence substantiating the Bible's historical record. No matter what measure is used, no other ancient document is nearly as reliable as the New Testament.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The remarkable unity of the entire Bible, both within and between the Old and New Testaments, is a powerful apologetic, as are the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies that are fulfilled in the New Testament. The more we read the Bible, the more we discover its intrinsic inspiration.

The New Testament's historical reliability is shown in the authenticity of the New Testament documents, the credibility of its writers, non-Christian sources corroborating Jesus' existence, and archaeological evidence substantiating the Bible's historical record. No matter what measure is used, no other ancient document is nearly as reliable as the New Testament.
And yet you cannot find one proper source that supports it or develop one proper way to test it.

If the Bible was true you would probably have countless ways to test it properly.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
So, people say that Jesus Christ rose from the dead...

But if he rose from being supposedly "dead", was he ever really dead?

Surely by definition death is final?

I think whatever condition he was in was not death

I think he returned from a state that was medically similar to death

And that if It was truly death then he wouldn't have got up again!
When Christ Himself calls death of this mortal body "sleep" (His own word choice), He means I think that there is another life after this one. But also He means the dead can be raised perhaps; both. But at least in regard to the mortal body, He did die and then worked in spirit in this way:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive [in spirit], he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built....

So, during those 3 days before the resurrection, He was working. And thus:

1 Peter 4:6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus died so that anyone who accepted the free gift of eternal salvation would be saved, and even those that didn't accept it, he died for them.
If the gift was free, there was no cost involved. Your theology is confused.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Isaiah doesn’t mention Jesus.

Jesus is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How does the Bible contradict itself in those verses? The theme is consistent that we are sinners who need a Savior. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It was written by 66 different authors, and it has the same consistent message of God's holiness, God's love for his creation, and redemption.
It was written by some other number than 66. Some books, like Luke/Acts, have been divided. Others, such as the three documents that we call “Isaiah,” have been glommed together. And then there are the other documents i the Apocrypha, plus several NT books (such as Thomas) that were never canonized.

The Bible does contradict itself, because it’s not a consistent collection.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It was written by some other number than 66. Some books, like Luke/Acts, have been divided. Others, such as the three documents that we call “Isaiah,” have been glommed together. And then there are the other documents i the Apocrypha, plus several NT books (such as Thomas) that were never canonized.

The Bible does contradict itself, because it’s not a consistent collection.

The gospel of Thomas turns the teachings of Jesus into mysticism. What is the Gospel of Thomas? | GotQuestions.org

One argument for precluding the Gospel of Thomas from the Bible is found in the overt "secretness" attributed to these 114 sayings by the work itself. Nowhere in Scripture is God’s Word given “in secret" but is given for all to read and understand. The Gospel of Thomas very clearly tries to maintain an air of secrecy in its words.
 
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