The Greater Insult

Dave Watchman · Mar 13, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Some versions of God can be shown not to exist. The one that you appear to believe in for example. People that follow evil Gods, like the God of the Old Testament sometimes do evil acts.

I'm only concerned with the God of gods.

The One desired by women.

Subduction Zone said:
Wow!! Just wow!. Now that is totally unsupported by the Bible. So Jesus, who was not to be born for quite a while, got in the way of God somehow. Interesting. Still, God lied according to you.

The pre-incarnate Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. - John 1:3

Subduction Zone said:
I am sorry to interrupt so soon, but no. That is not the case. The story is a myth so it has nothing at all to do with whether we are here or not.

No Adam/Eve = No Human Race.

Easy equation.

Subduction Zone said:
So Jesus stands between man and God's unjustified wrath. Why is God mad at humans? According to the myth he was the one that screwed up.

*Sounds like anger, ready to skip over bargaining and depression?

Go right to the Armageddon with God stage?

I put the Script in my post.

The penalty for sin is death.

Sin is transgression of the law.

There's no anger.

If I take a running leap off the top of the Empire State Building, was gravity angry with me when I hit the ground?

*Five stages of grief:

denial.
anger.
bargaining.
depression.
acceptance.

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now.

stvdv · Mar 13, 2021

Nimos said:
I would disagree

Okay, I can live with that

Subduction Zone · Mar 13, 2021

Dave Watchman said:
I'm only concerned with the God of gods.

The One desired by women.

I doubt if there is such a "God".

The pre-incarnate Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. - John 1:3

Creative interpretation.

No Adam/Eve = No Human Race.

Easy equation.

No, Adam and Eve were a myth. There never were only two people

*Sounds like anger, ready to skip over bargaining and depression?

Go right to the Armageddon with God stage?

I put the Script in my post.

The penalty for sin is death.

Sin is transgression of the law.

There's no anger.

If I take a running leap off the top of the Empire State Building, was gravity angry with me when I hit the ground?

*Five stages of grief:

denial.

anger.

bargaining.

depression.

acceptance.

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now.

Okay that is quite a bit of nonsense along with an outright lie about atheists. Why would you believe a lying source?

By the way, there may be a God, but it is quite clear that your version of God does not exist.

darkskies · Mar 13, 2021

Dave Watchman said:
*Five stages of grief:

denial.

anger.

bargaining.

depression.

acceptance.

"Major concerns include the absence of sound empirical evidence, conceptual clarity, or explanatory potential. It lacks practical utility for the design or allocation of treatment services, and it does not help identification of those at risk or with complications in the grieving process. Most disturbingly, the expectation that bereaved persons will, even should, go through stages of grieving can be harmful to those who do not. Following such lines of reasoning, we argue that stage theory should be discarded by all concerned (including bereaved persons themselves); at best, it should be relegated to the realms of history."
Cautioning Health-Care Professionals: Bereaved Persons Are Misguided Through the Stages of Grief

PruePhillip · Mar 14, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
I remember watching this. It's actually a profound message. My currousity is how do evangelist christians view this.

It's a secular view of the world. A world where there is no truth and what the bible
says is myth.
The bible uses analogies for hell, often contradictory (ie fire and darkness)
Hell isn't torture, it's separation from God. It's a separation which people chose
in this life, not which God chooses in the next.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 14, 2021

PruePhillip said:
It's a secular view of the world. A world where there is no truth and what the bible
says is myth.
The bible uses analogies for hell, often contradictory (ie fire and darkness)
Hell isn't torture, it's separation from God. It's a separation which people chose
in this life, not which God chooses in the next.

If you look at the message, it's saying someone who doesn't believe in god has more spiritual maturity than the other two did. So, the consequences was that the nonbeliever was accepted and the other two were not. The type of consequences (hell, death, doing the chacha) is irrelevant really.

Kind of like saying how can one find a god of love in "human" sacrifice but people do...in the message not wanting to watch a human being pined to the stake for their salvation.

Hell..in this case...is separation from god. The nature of it is irrelevant.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 14, 2021

PruePhillip said:
It's a separation which people chose
in this life, not which God chooses in the next

This statement has always struck me as spiritual ego,pride, or so have you. It puts guilt on a person and coerce them to believe. If they don't, "it's their fault."

While those indoctrinated would most likely do what they are told so they won't get punished,to those fortunate to not believe in such a god, that statement tells a lot about it.

Usually, humans blame other humans when they have committed an illegal action-say stealing from sam's goodman shop. If someone out of town never heard of the shop and was has never stolen in his life, why should he get blamed and fined for the same crime as his peer because he chose not to steal (be a sinner)?

PruePhillip · Mar 14, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
This statement has always struck me as spiritual ego,pride, or so have you. It puts guilt on a person and coerce them to believe. If they don't, "it's their fault."

While those indoctrinated would most likely do what they are told so they won't get punished,to those fortunate to not believe in such a god, that statement tells a lot about it.

Usually, humans blame other humans when they have committed an illegal action-say stealing from sam's goodman shop. If someone out of town never heard of the shop and was has never stolen in his life, why should he get blamed and fined for the same crime as his peer because he chose not to steal (be a sinner)?

You can 'believe' anything you like. That's not the point. In a religious sense, 'believing' is the
beginning but there has to be the follow-through. "Even the devils believe" as Jesus' own
brother put it.
Not sure of your point - as I see it, we can seek after God and His righteousness, or we can
join the many who do not.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 14, 2021

PruePhillip said:
You can 'believe' anything you like. That's not the point. In a religious sense, 'believing' is the
beginning but there has to be the follow-through. "Even the devils believe" as Jesus' own
brother put it.
Not sure of your point - as I see it, we can seek after God and His righteousness, or we can
join the many who do not.

The statement "they chose there consequence" is a guilt tactic that many of us who have not been indoctrinated never experienced.

It sounds like christians are trying to understand and justify why people just don't believe by making it their fault. Why does there need to be a fault?

The video is a good example insofar that those who blame others for disbelief may realize their atheist peer was more christian than they, cause they did not judge.

PruePhillip · Mar 14, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
The statement "they chose there consequence" is a guilt tactic that many of us who have not been indoctrinated never experienced.

It sounds like christians are trying to understand and justify why people just don't believe by making it their fault. Why does there need to be a fault?

The video is a good example insofar that those who blame others for disbelief may realize their atheist peer was more christian than they, cause they did not judge.

We live in a world where you can't 'judge.' That's odd because the people who hate being judged are often
the ones judging others. The point about the Gospels (as opposed to other faiths or Western interpretations
of it) is that judgment is good and important to know what is right and wrong, but we have no right to judge
who is acceptable to God. The bible says many people are just happy to live out their life and not care for God.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 14, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Up for discussion, if anyone cares to.

It reminded me of First Contact (and a deist model given no system is perfectly efficient). And then it reminded me of Monty Python.
And then it became kind of "meh," because it isn't really anything new, just in a slightly unusual presentation. And it does in have an issue in that it points out the authors of the Bible and Quran projected themselves onto god, but ultimately that is what the creators of this video did. And the atheist seems to have been lobotomized given his total lack of response upon discovering first hand that god does exist.
It would be nice though if there is a god like that, who is understanding and desired respect instead of fear.

oldbadger · Mar 14, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Up for discussion, if anyone cares to.

Nice for imagination, but God is all and far too vast to even be aware of nebulas, galaxies etc. But that's a Deist view.

firedragon · Mar 14, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Up for discussion, if anyone cares to.

Nice video painstakingly done.

Whats your discussion about?

thomas t · Mar 14, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Up for discussion, if anyone cares to.

good thought: why all the worshipping.
I think for some it's just natural. Some dance, some sing, for them it's a natural thing, why criticise people for what is natural?
This morning I joined the worship team in which I play the piano and sing (backing vocals). I tend to think "let us have community, God!"
For me, it feels natural.
In that church, it's a liberal one, noone worships because they think they must. These are all "lazy Christians"... they do something when they feel like it. They are my friends.

Fear... why not? When people destroy the earth they live on, the very earth that God created with a loving heart, why not be afraid of his wrath?
It would be natural, as I see it.

One thing I'd like to set straight, though:
it's a common misunderstanding that you're sent to hell for not believing.
If you get punished, it's for your actions. This is what Bible tells you, as I see it.

One example: three people broke windows of the same house.
Then a friend came about offering all of them to pay the bill, on condition that they must eat a sandwich.
One of them did, the other two did not.
The two complained: "I am billed for not eating a sandwich!"
This does not make any sense, though.
Same with the hypothesis of getting punished for *not believeing* in God. It's nonsense, in my view.
It's a strawman, commonly used by atheists.
As we see in the video, minute 10:14. This is at least a point the video is alluding to as I understand it.

Colt · Mar 14, 2021

At least the 2 believers in the video had the courage to trust God as they understood him throughout their life. The Atheist used the imperfections and inconsistencies of organized religion as a cop out. The atheist was the spiritually lazy coward and the God in the video is actually the "God concept" held by Atheists.

firedragon · Mar 14, 2021

Well, its an atheist preaching in a video he thinks is like a temple and people will worship him like God no matter what he says but judging by how he says it and how much fun it is. Very similar to a lot of religious mosques, kirks, temples etc.

You will see a lot of religious atheists worship this God so blindly and fall in love. Its a lot of fun really to see all of this.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 14, 2021

PruePhillip said:
We live in a world where you can't 'judge.' That's odd because the people who hate being judged are often
the ones judging others. The point about the Gospels (as opposed to other faiths or Western interpretations
of it) is that judgment is good and important to know what is right and wrong, but we have no right to judge
who is acceptable to God. The bible says many people are just happy to live out their life and not care for God.

My point was, in respects to the video and christian theology, the bible already sets up a "you are wrong and I am right" (thereby a platform for judgement) and singles out gods chosen people as the "right people" throughout scripture. The whole bible is based on judgement from genesis to revelations.

Non-believers don't have this "show don't tell" to dictate how to judge people who disagree with them.

Christians are following a book of judgement and whether they are nice about it or not, they follow gods example even if it's not explicitly stated in the short book. So it would be silly to hold non-believers by the same standards as believers...and just as silly as blaming a person for not wanting to live under such standards of judgement.

-
Judgement as in biaes in part is normal. But in this context and video and bible, it's talking about negative judgment we have on others and their choice of belief and/or behavior.

What spiritual lesson is there to learn from of telling others (generalizing) they reject or ignorant of the christian god?

If the bible taught all would be saved, you'd have a point. Since it doesn't, that's the purpose of the video: Showing vs telling not believing vs disbelieving.

Lastly. I'm not quite sure how you can be saved by faith or belief. If I'm hanging off a cliff gravity cares less about how much faith I have. It's about practice. That's why the muslim and christian fell off the cliff (diff analogy for same point). The atheist pulled "himself" up. The other two blamed him for not believing in god to do it for him or believe God would support them. When the three all reach God, he praises the atheist for his actions regardless his convictions.

Point: You still save someone from hunger by giving food despite your intentions for giving it. Aka. you save a person from eternal death because of his actions not the strength of his intentions.

PruePhillip · Mar 14, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
My point was, in respects to the video and christian theology, the bible already sets up a "you are wrong and I am right" (thereby a platform for judgement) and singles out gods chosen people as the "right people" throughout scripture. The whole bible is based on judgement from genesis to revelations.

Non-believers don't have this "show don't tell" to dictate how to judge people who disagree with them.

Christians are following a book of judgement and whether they are nice about it or not, they follow gods example even if it's not explicitly stated in the short book. So it would be silly to hold non-believers by the same standards as believers...and just as silly as blaming a person for not wanting to live under such standards of judgement.

-
Judgement as in biaes in part is normal. But in this context and video and bible, it's talking about negative judgment we have on others and their choice of belief and/or behavior.

What spiritual lesson is there to learn from of telling others (generalizing) they reject or ignorant of the christian god?

If the bible taught all would be saved, you'd have a point. Since it doesn't, that's the purpose of the video: Showing vs telling not believing vs disbelieving.

Lastly. I'm not quite sure how you can be saved by faith or belief. If I'm hanging off a cliff gravity cares less about how much faith I have. It's about practice. That's why the muslim and christian fell off the cliff (diff analogy for same point). The atheist pulled "himself" up. The other two blamed him for not believing in god to do it for him or believe God would support them. When the three all reach God, he praises the atheist for his actions regardless his convictions.

Point: You still save someone from hunger by giving food despite your intentions for giving it. Aka. you save a person from eternal death because of his actions not the strength of his intentions.

Getting tired and all this is hard to take in.
Without works our faith is dead. No-one is saved by just believing - contrary to what many churches
teach (James Epistle on this offends many - Luther wanted it removed.)
The bible isn't so much about who is saved but what behavior is necessary. I don't think many in
scripture are spoken of being saved and in heaven. Matt 5,6 and 7 are the things necessary for
salvation - humility, love, forgiveness, seeking God, gaining wisdom, being needy etc.. But all this
begins with believing in God - something the atheist didn't do. Science requires corporate proofs,
and the bible is about the private proof, ie proving for yourself. You must seek after God. If you are
happy with this world, happy believing the universe created itself before it existed and for no reason
and content with your own human nature then you show no need or desire to seek God.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 14, 2021

PruePhillip said:
Getting tired and all this is hard to take in.
Without works our faith is dead. No-one is saved by just believing - contrary to what many churches
teach (James Epistle on this offends many - Luther wanted it removed.)
The bible isn't so much about who is saved but what behavior is necessary. I don't think many in
scripture are spoken of being saved and in heaven. Matt 5,6 and 7 are the things necessary for
salvation - humility, love, forgiveness, seeking God, gaining wisdom, being needy etc.. But all this
begins with believing in God - something the atheist didn't do. Science requires corporate proofs,
and the bible is about the private proof, ie proving for yourself. You must seek after God. If you are
happy with this world, happy believing the universe created itself before it existed and for no reason
and content with your own human nature then you show no need or desire to seek God.

The problem is christians think it's "common sense" and we just look outside and "know" it's their creator and poof have an awakening experience that their book is "the" book. That's why there is more resistance. Judgement, by nature, isn't meant for multiple perspectives of truth just the one that fits that criteria of right judgement.

Love isn't an action. The muslim and christian can believe in love, forgiveness, humility, and they sure seeked god and gained wisdom. However, if it's not about belief then the athiest would be saved just as the muslim and christian if all three of their behaviors was pleasing to god regardless their convictions.

Science doesn't prove the spiritual nature of the bible and definitely doesn't prove anything miraculous. Why do christians feel they are "special"?

Why can't christians just be happy that people are not lost, searching, rejecting, so have you and just don't believe in "their" god?

Why is it all about them?

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 14, 2021

firedragon said:
Nice video painstakingly done.

Whats your discussion about?

My discussion is about human ideas about God.

First, think (as much as possible) of all the religions in human history -- there have been, probably, 100,000 or more.
Then think of how many there still are today.
Consider the many wars of religion, for example the many in Europe during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. They seemed to go on forever.
Think how many people have been killed for believing in the wrong religion – or even in the same religion but in “the wrong way.”
Consider the fact that most children grow up believing what their parents believe – not 100%, to be sure, but surely the vast majority.
Look at these forums, and see if you can find one example – just one – of a member having their beliefs changed by virtue of a solid argument presented in one or more threads.

Now, consider human notions of God, especially notions in the Abrahamic religions:

Wise (to the point of all-wise)
Powerful (to the point of all-powerful)
Good (to the point of perfect good)

No human religion, no concept of God that I can think of, can possibly allow all of the above to be simultaneously true – something has to give. Maybe God isn’t good after all, or maybe not so wise, or perhaps less powerful. It cannot be that an all-good God, who loves His human creation (all of it), can have inspired one scripture, for one tribe, and let every other tribe in history get it wrong, on their own. How much more likely, then, that He didn’t even inspire the one – that it, and all others, are simply the works of human beings, guessing in the dark? And yes, that includes the atheists, who must also conceive of a deity if they are not going to believe in it.

That, and all the other trains of reasoning that all of the above leads to, is the subject of my discussion.

The Greater Insult

Active Member

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Veteran Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Certified People sTabber

Skanky Old Mongrel!

Veteran Member

non-denominational Christian

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

"Truth" isn't a thing...