What constitutes a Prophet of the God of Abraham?

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

adrian009 said:
This is a discussion and debate mostly for followers of Abrahamic Faiths though others are free to contribute as well. The concept of a Prophet is well developed in Abrahamic scriptures including the Tanakh, New Testament and Quran.

There are numerous examples of Prophets in the Tanakh, the better known being Noah, Abraham and Moses but many others besides such as Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. The Christian New Testament affirms the Jewish Prophets, advocates Jesus as being a Prophet and much more. The NT introduces the concept of the Apostle. Examples of Apostles are Paul, Peter and James. The Apostles have similarities with Prophets.

The Islamic Quran affirms the concept of Prophets and makes distinction between Prophets such as Moses and Jesus that are Founders of religion with Prophets that come under their shadow. Some of the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible are specifically mentioned along with others.

The concept of a Prophet has significance when considering newer religious movements such as the Baha’i Faith, Ahmadis, and Mormons whose founders each make controversial claims based on the concept of Prophethood.

So I thought on a religious forum it would be useful to consider what various religious scriptures have to say about the concept of what a Prophet is and what it isn’t. The discussion need not be limited to the scriptures of the three main Abrahamic Faiths. I know there are other faiths with sacred writings or scriptures outside these religions that allude in part to the concept of the Prophet. So do feel free to make references to any recognised scriptures.

Will we agree on what constitutes a Prophet based on scriptures? Probably not, but for me it will be a much more interesting discussion than some of the other topics on offer.

I’ll kick off with a couple of Biblical quotes:

1/ When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:22

2/ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20

Moses is not a Prophet. That is why GOD spoke to him audibly. GOD actually came to see Moses and speak with him in person.

A Prophet has the innate ability, in their Spirit Being, to hear from GOD inaudibly, by the Laws of how Spirit communicates with spirit. Like a radio that receives signals, the Prophet must decode those signals and then teach the people. Radio technology was actually pointing to the ability of the Prophet. Then the higher came, which is television, aptly named because Prophets Tell A vision. Prophets are not made, they are born. The Spirit of Prophecy is not a gift, they were born with it. And this was revealed in Jeremiah: before you were formed in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee a Prophet unto the nations.

While a sent one, is not always a Prophet, like Moses is not a Prophet, GOD speaks to them audibly, because they don't have the ability to hear from GOD inaudibly. Aaron was called Moses' prophet. Moses was never called a Prophet.

If there be a Prophet among you, I will make myself known to him in a vision and in dark speeches. But Moses my servant is not so, to him I will speak to face to face.

epronovost · Mar 12, 2021

Windwalker said:
It's actually sage advice that seems above many people's heads, considering the great con-job they all brought into with Trump and his election fraud grift on them. It's a pretty simple principle. If their fruits are violence and destruction, distrust, anger, division, lies upon lies, and generally the absolute antithesis on every point of Christ's measure of goodness in the Bible in the Beatitudes. Then what they say with their mouths about being God's chosen one, should be pretty obvious he's not.

If you believed that Trump's re-election bid was stolen and the other guys were covering it up, then you believe that it's Biden who is sowing destruction, division and lies upon lies. If you buy into Trump's narrative, he is the good guy and not the other way around. What's "tricky" and truly wise is teaching how to actually assess who lies and who spreads hatred and division and that verse doesn't. It simply states that people who evil are in fact evil as if any reader or listenner didn't knew that. It doesn't teach nor encourage critical thinking skills. That verse is basically the idiotic version of Socrates teachings on ethics and skepticism with some poetic fluff to conceal or compensate the paucity of it's wisdom.

Brickjectivity · Mar 12, 2021

adrian009 said:
2/ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20

I have a lot of experience with both men and women claiming to be prophets. I've seen a child convinced he was a prophet. I've seen a teenager. I've seen miracle workers get caught working fake miracles, and until they were caught no one questioned them. Nobody in that church followed the advice in this passage, getting to know people claiming to be prophets, testing them, finding out what they were made of. In this case I'm talking about people who claim to receive words from God for other people to hear. I'm not talking about the other kinds. They claim to hear God for others.

The advice is often not followed, but its good advice.

Dawnofhope · Mar 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The next question, and an important one, is who those Prophets were. We know who the Old Testament (Torah) Prophets were, but which ones were the universal Manifestations and which ones were the followers and promoters?

Its a good question. You are probably familiar with the list of Prophets identified in the Quran.

Prophets and messengers in Islam

List of characters and names mentioned in the Quran

Trailblazer said:
Secondly, is there a list of all the Prophets (Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic) that Baha'is consider to be universal Manifestations of God?

When you ask about Universal Manifestations of God, that sounds like a Baha’i phrase. The Manifestations of God that Baha’is would identify would include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. They were each the Promoters of a new independent religion though records no longer exist as to the books belonging to Adam, Noah and Abraham.

Trailblazer said:
Thirdly, somewhere in the Writings, Baha'u'llah refers to "Prophets and Messengers," which indicates that they are not exactly the same, so who were the Messengers of God and who were the Prophets?

Muhammad makes the distinction between Messenger (Nabi) and Prophet (Rasul) in the Quran. I’m not aware of Bahá’u’lláh making any such distinction. I’d be very interested to read anything where He does.

Rival · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
Moses is not a Prophet. That is why GOD spoke to him audibly. GOD actually came to see Moses and speak with him in person.

A Prophet has the innate ability, in their Spirit Being, to hear from GOD inaudibly, by the Laws of how Spirit communicates with spirit. Like a radio that receives signals, the Prophet must decode those signals and then teach the people. Radio technology was actually pointing to the ability of the Prophet. Then the higher came, which is television, aptly named because Prophets Tell A vision. Prophets are not made, they are born. The Spirit of Prophecy is not a gift, they were born with it. And this was revealed in Jeremiah: before you were formed in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee a Prophet unto the nations.

While a sent one, is not always a Prophet, like Moses is not a Prophet, GOD speaks to them audibly, because they don't have the ability to hear from GOD inaudibly. Aaron was called Moses' prophet. Moses was never called a Prophet.

If there be a Prophet among you, I will make myself known to him in a vision and in dark speeches. But Moses my servant is not so, to him I will speak to face to face.

Moses was called a prophet.

Dawnofhope · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
Moses is not a Prophet. That is why GOD spoke to him audibly. GOD actually came to see Moses and speak with him in person.

A Prophet has the innate ability, in their Spirit Being, to hear from GOD inaudibly, by the Laws of how Spirit communicates with spirit. Like a radio that receives signals, the Prophet must decode those signals and then teach the people. Radio technology was actually pointing to the ability of the Prophet. Then the higher came, which is television, aptly named because Prophets Tell A vision. Prophets are not made, they are born. The Spirit of Prophecy is not a gift, they were born with it. And this was revealed in Jeremiah: before you were formed in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee a Prophet unto the nations.

While a sent one, is not always a Prophet, like Moses is not a Prophet, GOD speaks to them audibly, because they don't have the ability to hear from GOD inaudibly. Aaron was called Moses' prophet. Moses was never called a Prophet.

If there be a Prophet among you, I will make myself known to him in a vision and in dark speeches. But Moses my servant is not so, to him I will speak to face to face.

The Torah and NT clearly identifies Moses as a Prophet. Assuming Moses authored the Torah:

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken
Deuteronomy 18:15

The author of Luke refers to this verse in Acts of the Apostles 3:22; 7:37 twice.

Again in Deuteronomy 34:10-12 it is written:
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

The importance of God speaking face to face to Moses emphasises the close association between the two, analogous of Jesus being the 'Son of God'.

Dawnofhope · Mar 12, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
I have a lot of experience with both men and women claiming to be prophets. I've seen a child convinced he was a prophet. I've seen a teenager. I've seen miracle workers get caught working fake miracles, and until they were caught no one questioned them. Nobody in that church followed the advice in this passage, getting to know people claiming to be prophets, testing them, finding out what they were made of. In this case I'm talking about people who claim to receive words from God for other people to hear. I'm not talking about the other kinds. They claim to hear God for others.

The advice is often not followed, but its good advice.

I witnessed much the same phenomenon of self-proclaimed prophets within the Christian Church before I became a Baha'i. It was very unattractive and unconvincing along with speaking in tongues and other supposed 'gifts of the spirit'.

Deeje · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
Moses was not a Prophet. That is why GOD spoke to him audibly. GOD actually came to see Moses and speak with him in person.

The definition of a prophet is.....
One through whom divine will and purpose are made known. (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:18-21) Although the etymology of the Hebrew term for a prophet (na·viʼʹ) is uncertain, the use of this distinctive term shows that true prophets were no ordinary announcers but were spokesmen for God, ‘men of God’ with inspired messages. (1Kings 12:22; 2Kings 4:9; 23:17) They stood in God’s “intimate group,” and he revealed his “confidential matter” to them.(Jeremiah 23:18; Amos 3:7; 1Kngsi 17:1)
By this definition Moses was a prophet.

Yahcubs777 said:
A Prophet has the innate ability, in their Spirit Being, to hear from GOD inaudibly, by the Laws of how Spirit communicates with spirit.

They did indeed hear the words God spoke to them....and then they passed on that information to whomever it was directed.

Yahcubs777 said:
Like a radio that receives signals, the Prophet must decode those signals and then teach the people. Radio technology was actually pointing to the ability of the Prophet. Then the higher came, which is television, aptly named because Prophets Tell A vision. Prophets are not made, they are born.

Now we are getting into the realms of fantasy.....did you make that up?

The Spirit of Prophecy is not a gift, they were born with it. And this was revealed in Jeremiah: before you were formed in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee a Prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah was one of a very few people foreordained from birth to be a prophet. It does not say that about prophets in general. John the Baptist was also foreordained from birth for a specific role, like that of Elijah.

Yahcubs777 said:
While a sent one, is not always a Prophet, like Moses is not a Prophet, GOD speaks to them audibly, because they don't have the ability to hear from GOD inaudibly. Aaron was called Moses' prophet. Moses was never called a Prophet.

Since Moses was "one through whom divine will and purpose are made known"...he was a prophet. Aaron was appointed to act as Moses' mouthpiece because he lacked confidence in his speaking abilities. (Exodus 4:10-16)

If there be a Prophet among you, I will make myself known to him in a vision and in dark speeches. But Moses my servant is not so, to him I will speak to face to face.

According to the Tanakh in Deuteronomy 34:10....
"And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face"

As @adrian009 has said.....Moses was a prophet.

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

adrian009 said:
The Torah and NT clearly identifies Moses as a Prophet. Assuming Moses authored the Torah:

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken
Deuteronomy 18:15

The author of Luke refers to this verse in Acts of the Apostles 3:22; 7:37 twice.

Again in Deuteronomy 34:10-12 it is written:
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

The importance of God speaking face to face to Moses emphasises the close association between the two, analogous of Jesus being the 'Son of God'.

Its like everyone quotes this without any understanding.

What did Jesus His Pre-Eminence mean when HE said:The law and the Prophets?
Why wasn't Moses books included with the Prophets if he is a Prophet?

If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
'
The like unto me, ,means the kind of Prophet that will lead the whole global community of the children of the kingdom to the Promised Land.

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

Rival said:
Moses was called a prophet.

If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

Deeje said:
The definition of a prophet is.....
One through whom divine will and purpose are made known. (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:18-21) Although the etymology of the Hebrew term for a prophet (na·viʼʹ) is uncertain, the use of this distinctive term shows that true prophets were no ordinary announcers but were spokesmen for God, ‘men of God’ with inspired messages. (1Kings 12:22; 2Kings 4:9; 23:17) They stood in God’s “intimate group,” and he revealed his “confidential matter” to them.(Jeremiah 23:18; Amos 3:7; 1Kngsi 17:1)
By this definition Moses was a prophet.

They did indeed hear the words God spoke to them....and then they passed on that information to whomever it was directed.

Now we are getting into the realms of fantasy.....did you make that up?

Jeremiah was one of a very few people foreordained from birth to be a prophet. It does not say that about prophets in general. John the Baptist was also foreordained from birth for a specific role, like that of Elijah.

Since Moses was "one through whom divine will and purpose are made known"...he was a prophet. Aaron was appointed to act as Moses' mouthpiece because he lacked confidence in his speaking abilities. (Exodus 4:10-16)

According to the Tanakh in Deuteronomy 34:10....
"And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face"

Moses was a prophet.

Meaning, there hasn't been a Prophet that has led everybody the way Moses did. Not that Moses is a Prophet. Do any of you understand what it means to be a Prophet?
who else did GOD speak to audibly?

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

Deeje said:
The definition of a prophet is.....
One through whom divine will and purpose are made known. (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:18-21) Although the etymology of the Hebrew term for a prophet (na·viʼʹ) is uncertain, the use of this distinctive term shows that true prophets were no ordinary announcers but were spokesmen for God, ‘men of God’ with inspired messages. (1Kings 12:22; 2Kings 4:9; 23:17) They stood in God’s “intimate group,” and he revealed his “confidential matter” to them.(Jeremiah 23:18; Amos 3:7; 1Kngsi 17:1)
By this definition Moses was a prophet.

They did indeed hear the words God spoke to them....and then they passed on that information to whomever it was directed.

Now we are getting into the realms of fantasy.....did you make that up?

Jeremiah was one of a very few people foreordained from birth to be a prophet. It does not say that about prophets in general. John the Baptist was also foreordained from birth for a specific role, like that of Elijah.

Since Moses was "one through whom divine will and purpose are made known"...he was a prophet. Aaron was appointed to act as Moses' mouthpiece because he lacked confidence in his speaking abilities. (Exodus 4:10-16)

According to the Tanakh in Deuteronomy 34:10....
"And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face"

As @adrian009 has said.....Moses was a prophet.

All Prophets are born, they are not made. Prophets have the Spirit of Prophecy in their Spirit Being. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Deeje · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
Why wasn't Moses books included with the Prophets if he is a Prophet?

Daniel was a prophet too but they didn't include him either....

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

adrian009 said:
The Torah and NT clearly identifies Moses as a Prophet. Assuming Moses authored the Torah:

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken
Deuteronomy 18:15

The author of Luke refers to this verse in Acts of the Apostles 3:22; 7:37 twice.

Again in Deuteronomy 34:10-12 it is written:
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

The importance of God speaking face to face to Moses emphasises the close association between the two, analogous of Jesus being the 'Son of God'.

No it isn't. n Acts 3:19-23 proves its not Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

This Proves that Prophet spoken of here is not Jesus His Pre-Eminence. For Elijah must come ansd restore all things.

Dawnofhope · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
Its like everyone quotes this without any understanding.

What did Jesus His Pre-Eminence mean when HE said:The law and the Prophets?
Why wasn't Moses books included with the Prophets if he is a Prophet?

He was referring to Moses and the Prophets under His shadow.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

Yahcubs777 said:
If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
'
The like unto me, ,means the kind of Prophet that will lead the whole global community of the children of the kingdom to the Promised Land.

Numbers 12:7 simply makes a distinction between Moses and lesser Prophets. It does not not deny Moses is a Prophet.

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

Deeje said:
Daniel was a prophet too but they didn't include him either....

Because they don't agree that he is a Prophet. Thats why he wasn't included. But he is a Prophet. Moses is not a prophet, and was never called one. The one that was called a Prophet, is the one representing the Prophets, Elijah, who like him will lead the global community of the children of the kingdom, as the forerunner for Jesus His Pre-Eminence second coming.

There is the Law, and the Prophets. Moses is the Law, he is tnot the Prophet

Rival · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:

This means that God did not come to Moses in visions and dreams.

Deut 18:

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses, the speaker] from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

adrian009 said:
He was referring to Moses and the Prophets under His shadow.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

Numbers 12:7 simply makes a distinction between Moses and lesser Prophets. It does not not deny Moses is a Prophet.

Moses is defining the Law. He is not under the Tabernacle of the Prophets. There is the Law, which is the Torah, which is the 5 books of Moses, not 6, or7, 5. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. These 5 all come under the Law, because they were given the Law, Moses. The Great Moses was sent, but he is not a Prophet.

Deeje · Mar 12, 2021

Yahcubs777 said:
Meaning, there hasn't been a Prophet that has led everybody the way Moses did. Not that Moses is a Prophet. Do any of you understand what it means to be a Prophet?
who else did GOD speak to audibly?

No sorry...it says "no OTHER Prophet"....clearly indicating that Moses was a prophet.

Acts 3:22...
"In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’"

Acts 7:37...
"“This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’"

"A prophet like me"......good grief!.....how can you say Moses was not a prophet? :shrug:

Yahcubs777 · Mar 12, 2021

Rival said:
This means that God did not come to Moses in visions and dreams.

Deut 18:

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses, the speaker] from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—

It means that he, Moses, is not a Prophet.

Samuel is a Prophet, and GOD spoke to him INAUDIBLY... They even wrote that samuel didn't know who was speaking.

Like unto me, means that the person will be the leader of every child of the kingdom, and he will be called "The Prophet".

What constitutes a Prophet of the God of Abraham?

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