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Guided evolution?

cladking

Well-Known Member
You assume all of reality can be reduced to definitions. You assume that everyone has the same definition for every word and that they can properly deconstruct your every utterance.

Everything you assume is probably wrong and definitively led to what you believe. We are a species who individually chooses our beliefs and then lives and breathes those beliefs. It's impossible to escape this because it's the very nature of our different kind of consciousness. We have 7 billion languages and 7 billion religions. You believe that "science", which is the world's fastest growing religion, is the only true religion when in reality it isn't even the only science but is rather one among many. As a science it's effective and serviceable but as a belief system it is the greatest threat to the survival of mankind.

The belief in "survival of the fittest" has already killed more human beings than every natural disaster in history combined.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I've listed the erroneous assumptions more times than I can count but talking about falling on deaf ears!!!!

You assume consciousness and individuals are irrelevant to life and evolution.

No, that is not an assumption. There is no evidence for it so we do not believe it. There is no evidence that Little Green Men From Mars caused evolution either so we do not believe that either. If this is what you call an "assumption" you have a lot to learn. Let's keep score. Failure number 1. Wait, wait, we need some color here:

Failure number one!

You assume that you are intelligent.

Let's not make this personal, and glass houses.

Failure number two!

You assume that your perception and definitions of space and time are reality.

Again, no. There is no "assumption" there. It is all that we can observe. Once again no evidence to the contrary so not an assumption. See number one

Failure number three!
You assume that the way we think doesn't affect experiment.

Do we? You would need to prove that. That scientists make that assumption. From what I have seen they try to avoid personal bias affecting experiment and if they made that error they would be called out for it by others when their ideas went through peer review. By the way I can see that you are going to fail all of these. You cannot just name supposed assumptions, you need to prove that these assumptions are being made. But since most of your clams fail on more than one level I will continue.

Failure number four!

You assume that reality is only what appears in experiment.

Really? This is just a weird claim, you would have to prove this since I have never seen a scientist make this assumption. In fact most know that experiments are an attempt to test a model. But go ahead, prove that they do this. Until then:

Failure number five!

You assume all of reality has already appeared in one experiment or another.

What!? No, this is just insane. Scientists never assume that all of reality has been tested. But again, besides failing for just being a rather stupid claim you need to need to prove this calumny. Just claiming it does not cut it.

Failure number six!

You assume there was no "Creator" or other means by which reality can organize itself.

Again no. Scientists are not allowed to make this sort of assumption and not all scientists are atheists. Many of them are theists and they still accept the fact of evolution. And I need to remind you that the challenge was that you not only have to name the assumptions, you need to support them. You quoted me out of context to try to take away that burden of proof. Guess what? My entire unedited original post is still there demonstrating the opening dishonesty of your post. Editing to avoid a burden is not honest.

Failure number seven!

You assume math can be used to describe all of reality and that all math reflects some reality. The first corollary being that the fact no identical things exist is irrelevant to a mathematics with a number line and irrational numbers.

Do we now? From what I have seen math is used as a tool that aids in describing reality. A very powerful tool that can be used to refute ignorant claims. But that does not mean that it describes all of reality. And once again you need to prove that scientists do this. Until you do you just have an empty claim.

Failure number eight!

You assume chaotic principles are not necessary to describe reality.

Oh my! Now that is a hoot. Do you think that chaos theory does not exist? Or perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the terms that you use. This is a really bad one on your part.

Failure number nine!!

You assume only humans are conscious and this can be determined without even a definition for "conscious".

Since when? In fact most scientists seem to rightfully believe that there is a spectrum of consciousness and that some other life even on Earth may have a consciousness that rivals ours.

Failure number ten!

[
quote]

You assume ancient people were highly superstitious but we're all better now (thanks to evolution)(and science}.[/quote]

Again no. Some ancient people were highly superstitious, some were probably not. And even now there are many highly superstitious people. I can name at least one:rolleyes:

By the way, evolution has not had time to affect human beliefs superstition wise. And as usual you did not support this claim. I see this particular supposed assumption failing on at least three levels.

Failure number eleven!

You assume that all an expert has to do is interpret data and this will lead him to the truth and then he can lead us to the truth.

It only appears to be that way to the terribly uneducated. No one assumes that it is that easy. Perhaps you could find an area of interest and actually try to learn rather than jumping to the false conclusion that your uneducated opinion has any validity at all. One has to be able to support one's beliefs for others to accept their findings. It takes so much more than you seem to think that it does.

Failure number twelve!

You assume that technology proves a total understanding of the underlying principles.

No, no, no, no. If only it were that simple. Seriously dude, you need to start at the beginning. When this is done would you care to discuss the scientific method?

Failure number thirteen!


You assume that everyone who's right gets the same answer.

No, that is not the case. In most cases there is only one right answer. But that is not always the case. You appear to be conflating being shown to be wrong, which appears to be a quite frequent occurrence for you with there only being one right answer. Just because your answers are almost never right does not mean that there is an assumption of only one right answer. In most cases there is only one right answer but there can be multiple ideas that have not been shown to be wrong yet. It is wise not to choose ideas that have been shown to be wrong.

Failure number fourteen.

You assume that this same answer must be correct.

Oh no no no! That is never the case in the sciences. One always has to have an open mind. You appear to be conflating having a mind so open that one's brain falls out with being reasonable. Once again, some ideas can be shown to be wrong. That does not automatically mean that other ideas are the only correct idea. Once again that you believe this indicates that you are quite often supporting ideas that have been shown to be wrong.

Failure number fifteen!

You assume your assumptions don't matter so long as you use a scientific perspective.

Wow! A meta-accusation! No, you have not proven even one assumption, and all of your claims of assumptions fail so far. Here is the rule about such meta-claims, you must first prove the underlying claim. You have not done that. Another claim that fails on multiple levels. As an aside that yellow above is really really light.

Failure number sixteen!

You assume everything that comes from the past is nonsense because it looks like nonsense, smells like nonsense, and quacks like nonsense.

Once again it just seems that way to you because you constantly support ideas that have been refuted. Don't allow your personal experience cloud your judgment.

Failure number seventeen!

Oh boy! Too long. To be continued.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Part two of the conversation:

You assume that Darwin was correct when he said populations of species never drops to low levels.

What? When did Darwin ever claim that? He claimed the opposite. For a species to go extinct its population must first fall to low levels. Now it looks like you are just making things up.

Failure number eighteen!

You assume that if they did drop to low levels it's because most individuals weren't "fit" and then only the fittest reproduced to "save" the species.

No, though that is often the case. But it is never claimed that only the fittest reproduce. You really do not understand evolution at all. The fittest are more likely to reproduce, but it is not guaranteed. You will always fail when you base your assumptions on your misunderstanding of the topic being discussed.

Failure number nineteen!

You assume that missing links are irrelevant.

No, it has been demonstrated that missing links are irrelevant. That is not an assumption. Once again you are basing a supposed assumption on an inability to understand the topic being discussed.

Failure number twenty!



You assume that changes shown in the fossil record are all gradual.


No, some changes in the fossil record are quite sharp. Some changes are quite gradual. The fossil record is not continuous so of course some of the changes will be rather sharp. It has probably been explained to you that no one expects a full and continuous record of the evolution of life. Once again, just because you may lack an understanding does not mean that there is an assumption.

Failure number twentyone!

You assume you don't need experiment to show any such gradual change.

But we can and have shown gradual change through experiment. And all of the evidence that exists supports the claim of gradual change. There is no evidence for anything else. Now it looks as if you are blaming others for your lack of evidence with a false claim.

Failure number twentytwo!


You assume that life ever did originate on earth.

What? This is hard to understand since the word "ever" does not make any sense in that sentence. Are you saying that scientist assume that life originated on Earth? If that is the case you are of course wrong again. Some scientists have proposed that life could have come from another source. The most reasonable conclusion appears to be that it arose on the Earth, but no one assumes that. Abiogenesis is a field that is still in the hypothetical stage. Perhaps you are confused by the fact that where and how life arose does not affect the fact of evolution. But since your confusion appears to be rather extreme I cannot say for sure what incorrect belief you base this on.

Failure number twentythree!

You assume that our framework of knowledge perfectly fits the reality we see and that the reality we see is universal in space and time.

No, that is not the case at all. Our framework of knowledge is only the most reliable method we have of testing and learning about reality. If you have something better there are all sorts of awards and riches waiting for you. There may be a better way, but we do not know of it. Until then it is wise to use the system that works the best. No assumption there.

Failure number twentyfour!

I could go on like this all day without making a dent in all the premises, definitions, and axioms that underlie modern science and how this metaphysics is invisible to virtually everyone. It's also that you assume that there is no other science than experimental science that blinds you. Your assumption that knowledge lies in books much more than in observation and understanding of existing knowledge and "philosophy" will probably prevent you from understanding this post.


Yes, you are if one thing an expert at being wrong. As I pointed out very early that all of these fail because the challenge was not just to name them. You need to prove that such assumptions exist. Merely claiming that they exist is not good enough. And no. we do not assume that there is no other possible problem solving method. You already made that false claim. What you do not seem to understand is that the burden of proof lies upon the person making a positive claim.

You need to prove that you have a superior problem solving method, or at the very least you need to prove that you have a problem solving method that works reliably, even if it is not as good as the scientific method.

But thanks for playing. There are some very nice parting gifts, you get a years supply of Turtle Wax!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You assume all of reality can be reduced to definitions. You assume that everyone has the same definition for every word and that they can properly deconstruct your every utterance.

Everything you assume is probably wrong and definitively led to what you believe. We are a species who individually chooses our beliefs and then lives and breathes those beliefs. It's impossible to escape this because it's the very nature of our different kind of consciousness. We have 7 billion languages and 7 billion religions. You believe that "science", which is the world's fastest growing religion, is the only true religion when in reality it isn't even the only science but is rather one among many. As a science it's effective and serviceable but as a belief system it is the greatest threat to the survival of mankind.

The belief in "survival of the fittest" has already killed more human beings than every natural disaster in history combined.

Please drop the false claims of assumptions if you want a discussion. And no, the fact of evolution has not killed anyone. Nor has "survival of the fittest" been used as an excuse in any meaningful way at all. As usual just false claims that you cannot support.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
They are YOUR assumptions. It is you who must prove them. I called them "erroneous assumptions", remember?

Why don't you show me where Darwin assumed turtles were conscious and this affected the survivability of the species? An early objection to Darwin's speculations was that it assumed that the number of individuals never approached zero. He countered with saying populations were stable without ever considering the very long term.

You need to show me any of your conclusions can stand without these assumptions. You will not be able to. You also will not be able to prove the assumptions. No mathematical proof can show two identical things exist without first making the assumption that they do. I understand your hands are tied without these assumptions but you don't seem to understand that all of your conclusions rest on all of the assumptions or that assumptions necessarily lead right back toi themselves because of the way we think.
 

tarasan

Well-Known Member
I am familiar with the idea of "guided evolution"

That humans are the product of evolution, but that evolution has been "guided" so that intelligent humans ended up being evolved

The fact of evolution is thus reconciled with the notion that God created humans - that he created us through evolution

Is this something people believe in?

It makes sense to me
100 percent I agree with this

I don't see why u need to take the start theof the bible literally
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
By applying the scientific method. The first thing required to have evidence is to have a falsifiable hypothesis. Without that all one has is confirmation bias.

Does this imply a metaphysical conviction to naturalism perhaps?

Evidence is a great thing but at some point you use philosophy to infer your conclusions. And the same goes for scientific evidence. Evidence works for physical properties only. Demonstrated physical behaviours is the realm of methodological naturalism. Abstract qualities, such as consciousness, are better understood through philosophies other than naturalism.

Of all the phenomenon in reality abstract qualities require philosophical inferences. And philosophy is opinionated. So your strong intuitions about naturalism do not have to be the default position in concluding facts. There are other possibilities.

Not everything is explained by observation of the physical.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
They are YOUR assumptions. It is you who must prove them. I called them "erroneous assumptions", remember?

Why don't you show me where Darwin assumed turtles were conscious and this affected the survivability of the species? An early objection to Darwin's speculations was that it assumed that the number of individuals never approached zero. He countered with saying populations were stable without ever considering the very long term.

You need to show me any of your conclusions can stand without these assumptions. You will not be able to. You also will not be able to prove the assumptions. No mathematical proof can show two identical things exist without first making the assumption that they do. I understand your hands are tied without these assumptions but you don't seem to understand that all of your conclusions rest on all of the assumptions or that assumptions necessarily lead right back toi themselves because of the way we think.
LOL!! No, they are not even assumptions.

You claim that others make them That is simply wrong.

Tyr again.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Does this imply a metaphysical conviction to naturalism perhaps?

Evidence is a great thing but at some point you use philosophy to infer your conclusions. And the same goes for scientific evidence. Evidence works for physical properties only. Demonstrated physical behaviours is the realm of methodological naturalism. Abstract qualities, such as consciousness, are better understood through philosophies other than naturalism.

Of all the phenomenon in reality abstract qualities require philosophical inferences. And philosophy is opinionated. So your strong intuitions about naturalism do not have to be the default position in concluding facts. There are other possibilities.

Not everything is explained by observation of the physical.
Naturalism is so far the most reliable form of problem solving that we have. Philosophy may help us to learn why a problem solving method works or does not work, but it is not a problem solving system on its own.

No one has denied that there are other possibilities. But no one has been able to present any.


Tell me, how would you test your own beliefs?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Naturalism is so far the most reliable form of problem solving that we have. Philosophy may help us to learn why a problem solving method works or does not work, but it is not a problem solving system on its own.

No one has denied that there are other possibilities. But no one has been able to present any.


Tell me, how would you test your own beliefs?

My beliefs are intuitions. The intuition is very strong for this one thing, intelligence in nature. Intelligence does not have to be ideal, or smart to be intelligent.

How would I test that? Well the more specific and complimentary functions I see in one being the stronger the inference of purpose I have.

The contrary position would seem to yield complex, senseless and crudely functioning efficient gibberish.

When you say that's not what we see in nature, you have to infer the conclusion by your best available intuition.

I see no reason to think intelligence can be invented by mindless processes. It only leads to the question of why and how being intelligence came about. Intelligence is a highly involved phenomena.

Randomness, and variation does not eliminate intelligence. It can be a tool of intelligence.

Trial and error suggests to me a goal. And a goal to me suggests something of mind.

Whatever the test may be, it would involve abstract concepts about the nature of intelligence. It would involve clearly defining memory, experience, reason, knowing, questioning, and conceiving among other things.

Anything organized and coordinated exhibits intelligence.

Evidence alone is not going to prove my intuition to a naturalist. Naturalism is, amazingly the contrary opposite intuition to my own intuition.

Naturalism I define to be the intuition that only the physical exists. And behaviour of physical things is the sole explanation that suffices for that position.

The intelligence test would have to correlate the physical with the abstract. Considering consciousness, and identity an illusion is not an option.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My beliefs are intuitions. The intuition is very strong for this one thing, intelligence in nature. Intelligence does not have to be ideal, or smart to be intelligent.

How would I test that? Well the more specific and complimentary functions I see in one being the stronger the inference of purpose I have.

The contrary position would seem to yield complex, senseless and crudely functioning efficient gibberish.

When you say that's not what we see in nature, you have to infer the conclusion by your best available intuition.

I see no reason to think intelligence can be invented by mindless processes. It only leads to the question of why and how being intelligence came about. Intelligence is a highly involved phenomena.

Randomness, and variation does not eliminate intelligence. It can be a tool of intelligence.

Trial and error suggests to me a goal. And a goal to me suggests something of mind.

Whatever the test may be, it would involve abstract concepts about the nature of intelligence. It would involve clearly defining memory, experience, reason, knowing, questioning, and conceiving among other things.

Anything organized and coordinated exhibits intelligence.

Evidence alone is not going to prove my intuition to a naturalist. Naturalism is, amazingly the contrary opposite intuition to my own intuition.

Naturalism I define to be the intuition that only the physical exists. And behaviour of physical things is the sole explanation that suffices for that position.

The intelligence test would have to correlate the physical with the abstract. Considering consciousness, and identity an illusion is not an option.


Intuition is very unreliable. When applied to complex matters it is wrong far to often to be reliable. You might as well have admitted that you are wrong.

By the way, there does not appear to be any goal to evolution nor is there "trial and error" in the sense that you use that phrase. Your usage implies a goal and you would need to prove that there was such a goal. If you cannot support yourself why should anyone take your beliefs seriously?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Intuition is very unreliable. When applied to complex matters it is wrong far to often to be reliable. You might as well have admitted that you are wrong.

By the way, there does not appear to be any goal to evolution nor is there "trial and error" in the sense that you use that phrase. Your usage implies a goal and you would need to prove that there was such a goal. If you cannot support yourself why should anyone take your beliefs seriously?

Naturalism is an intuition. Its inferred from evidence.

You seem to imply that you never utilize or have intuitions that you operate from.

Intuitions develope. Or intuitions are preconceived.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Naturalism is an intuition. Its inferred from evidence.

You seem to imply that you never utilize or have intuitions that you operate from.

Intuitions develope. Or intuitions are preconceived.

No, naturalism is a conclusion arrived at by observing and testing nature. It works. Until you find something that works it only makes sense to stick with naturalism. Your beliefs from intuition may be correct, but it is highly doubtful that they are.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The physical world is mostly the only reality that humans can verify, and learn from.

You should have stopped the post right there....

Because if the physical world is the "only" thing we can verify and learn from, then that means by definition that you can't know about "other" worlds - including if they even exist. They are indistinguishable from imagination.

So what are you doing believing in those things?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Your objections mostly fall on deaf ears because people always end up at their assumptions and believers in evolution believe in survival of the fittest and that consciousness is irrelevant to life since they can't even define it.

upload_2021-3-9_9-9-57.png



"Reality is not what you perceive it to be. Instead, it's what the tools and methods of science reveal." ~Neil DeGrass Tyson

And the tools and methods of science reveal the diversity of species being the result of the natural process of evolution.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I've listed the erroneous assumptions more times than I can count but talking about falling on deaf ears!!!!

Excuse me while I have some fun and tackle every single one of these.

You assume consciousness and individuals are irrelevant to life and evolution.

No.

You assume that you are intelligent.

I can read and write and communicate abstract ideas. That, in and of itself, makes me/us more intelligent then all other species on the planet.


You assume that your perception and definitions of space and time are reality.

Absolutely not. This is why we rely on science to learn about space and time.

The opposite is actually true: I assume ("realize", actually) that my perceptions will very easily fool me into false beliefs.


You assume that the way we think doesn't affect experiment.

False. This is why during experiments, we have double blind studies and control groups and alike. In science, we go out of our way to reduce human bias to an absolute minimum.

You assume that reality is only what appears in experiment.

Not really. All explanation in science is considered provisional.
However, we (you too) assume that reality is consistent. For example, we don't assume that gravity will suddenly stop working tomorrow or start working differently. So if we measure the force of gravity in an experiment a couple dozen times over and get consistent results, we assume we'll get the same results tomorrw.

You assume all of reality has already appeared in one experiment or another.

Huh? Off course not. Where did you get that silly idea?
If that were true, no experiments would be conducted anymore. The entire LHC wouldn't have been build. No scientists would be trained anymore.

You assume there was no "Creator" or other means by which reality can organize itself.

No. Instead, we see no reason to believe in one / assume one exists, because no evidence or data is available to support such.

Show me evidence, and I'll happily accept the proposition.

You assume math can be used to describe all of reality and that all math reflects some reality.

Not really.
In fact, when Newton tried to describe the orbits of planets, he had to invent new math to do so.
At best, one can say that so far, math seems to do a pretty good job at modeling phenomena of reality.
Also, it is perfectly possible to use math to model a non-existing universe. Math doesn't describe reality by default. It only does so when it is underpinned by the actual data of reality.

Underpin it with incorrect data and you will get a perfectly valid and mathematically correct model of reality, which does not accurately reflect reality.


You assume chaotic principles are not necessary to describe reality.

No idea what is supposed to mean.

You assume only humans are conscious and this can be determined without even a definition for "conscious".

No.

You assume ancient people were highly superstitious but we're all better now (thanks to evolution)(and science}.

Ancient people were demonstrably very superstitious, yes. As can be concluded and demonstrated by the stuff they wrote down. Just about every phenomenon and their mothers were attributed to "spirits" and "deities" and similar magical things.

And yes, as science progresses, people grow out of that.
For example, you'll find it quite hard to get people to believe today that lightning is the result of some deity casting down lightning bolts from Mt Olympus, or thunder being the result of some deity smashing his magic hammer on some anvil. Back in the day though, this wasn't only an easy thing to do - it was pretty much the default view.

You assume that all an expert has to do is interpret data and this will lead him to the truth and then he can lead us to the truth.

When put like that, no, that is not the case. There's a "bit" more to it then that.
Also, it's not so much an assumption as it is rather demonstrably the best method we know of to find out how things work. Is it perfect? Off course not. But it's nevertheless the best we can do.

You assume that technology proves a total understanding of the underlying principles.

No. It proves that the understanding of the underlying principles is at least accurate enough to make the tech work.

Is atomic theory 110% accurate? I doubt it. But our understanding of atoms is at least accurate enough to make nukes explode.

You assume that everyone who's right gets the same answer.

That would be the case by definition of the word "right".
We can't both be right about something while saying mutually exclusive things, after all..................

When we say mutually exclusive things, either one of us is incorrect or we both are. But we can't both be right.

You assume that this same answer must be correct.

No.

You assume your assumptions don't matter so long as you use a scientific perspective.

This is a strange thing to say, considering that using a scientific perspective often challenges and disproves our assumptions. It's how we make progress.

You assume everything that comes from the past is nonsense because it looks like nonsense, smells like nonsense, and quacks like nonsense.

Another very bizarre thing to say.
Literally everything we know, was discovered in the past.
Relativity, evolution, atomic theory, plate tectonics... all these ideas are a century old or older.

What determines if something is nonsense or not, is not its age, but its merit and the evidence pro/con.

You assume that Darwin was correct when he said populations of species never drops to low levels.

Que?
1. I've never heard this quote by Darwin
2. If Darwin said that, he was demonstrably incorrect.

You assume that if they did drop to low levels it's because most individuals weren't "fit" and then only the fittest reproduced to "save" the species.

Another very strange assumption.
A million and one things, and then some, can make species levels drop - most of which don't have anything to do with the species per say. Like when a volcano erupts, a meteor strikes or other disruptive cataclysmic events occur.

You assume that missing links are irrelevant.

1. no

2. I assume you can't even properly define what a "missing link" is and don't even realize how that's a popular media phrase with little value in scientific context.

You assume that changes shown in the fossil record are all gradual.

Not an assumption. We observe changes occurring in extant species. We know evolution is a gradual process. We know every newborn comes with a set of mutations. We know these mutations accumulate through the hereditary of DNA. We thus know that changes in species comes about in gradual ways.

You assume you don't need experiment to show any such gradual change.

We have plenty of experimental and observational evidence of gradual change. It's not exactly hard to come by. In fact it's ridiculously easy.

You assume that life ever did originate on earth.

Not necessarily on earth. And not an assumption. Life, by definition, originated somewhere, somehow at some time. Because life didn't always exist. It had to begin at some point.

You assume that our framework of knowledge perfectly fits the reality we see and that the reality we see is universal in space and time.

We know for a fact that it does NOT "fit perfectly".
This is why research in just about every field of science continues.

I could go on like this all day

You could go on all day making false claims and strawmen?
Because, sorry to inform you, but literally NOT A SINGLE ONE of your accusations was correct. Not a single one.

In short: your mind reading device is seriously broken.

Your assumption that knowledge lies in books much more than in observation and understanding of existing knowledge and "philosophy" will probably prevent you from understanding this post.

It's ironic, because you are the only here who has to rely on what you read in "books".
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
They are YOUR assumptions.



He just dedicated two posts to tackling every single one of them and pointing out to you how they are not assumptions that he makes.

Instead, they are just strawmen on your part.

It is you who must prove them.

There is no need to prove claims that you merely pretend he's making.
He tackled every single one of them.

I called them "erroneous assumptions", remember?



You should have called them "pretend assumptions" or "strawmen".

Why don't you show me where Darwin assumed turtles were conscious and this affected the survivability of the species? An early objection to Darwin's speculations was that it assumed that the number of individuals never approached zero. He countered with saying populations were stable without ever considering the very long term.

Darwin lived 200 years ago.
I suggest you stick to modern biology instead.

While Darwin got a lot of things right and gets credit for discovering natural selection, he had quite a few things wrong as well.

It's a bit pointless to try and attack 21st century modern biology by trying to attack the 200 year old version of it, from a time that we didn't even know about DNA.


You need to show me any of your conclusions can stand without these assumptions. You will not be able to.



I agree he won't be able to.
But the only reason for that, is because you are closed minded and have already decided in advance that nothing will convince you. You won't even accept @Subduction Zone 's post where he tackles every single one of you accusations of assumptions he supposedly makes. He explained to you point by point how your claims were incorrect and not reflective at all of his assumptions / beliefs / opinions.

Yet, you will continue to pretend as if you know his mind better then he knows it himself.
It's laughable at best, and just sad at worst.


This "argument" of yours is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.
Ultimate strawman.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
My beliefs are intuitions.


Before Einstein, our "intuition" told us that the flow of time is constant at all times.

Before quantum mechanics, our "intuition" told us that 2 objects can't be in 2 places at once.

Before heliocentrism, our "intuition" told us that the earth is a stationary object with the sun orbitting it.

etc


In other words, "intuition" is not a pathway to truth.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I am a believer, and I know many other believers; not one of us have perceived evolution as threat to God.
Yes, I know that many believers aren't threatened by evolution.
My statement applied only to those who attack it.
Curse my poor phrasing.
 
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