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The Copper Scroll

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But faith undermines itself when it demands allegiance to ideas that can be shown to be nonsensical. It further undermines itself when it is taken in by charlatans.

Intelligent faith does its best to avoid such pitfalls.

Without knowing the evidence that Barfield presents, how can you be so sure it's nonsensical, or that he is a charlatan?

It seems to me that you're happy to set yourself up as both judge and jury.

And why should you be so private about your faith? Are you ashamed of what you believe?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Without knowing the evidence that Barfield presents, how can you be so sure it's nonsensical, or that he is a charlatan?

It seems to me that you're happy to set yourself up as both judge and jury.

And why should you be so private about your faith? Are you ashamed of what you believe?
Of course I am judging Barfield. The first thing a person of intelligence does, when presented with new claims that are at odds with previous understanding, is to consider whether the source looks reliable. (If you don't do that, you end up believing Washington is run by a a secret cabal of paedophiles.:D )

It is just applying your critical faculties. Don't you teach your students to do this? Today, the internet is simply full of junk and false information. It is vital to scrutinise sources to avoid being misled.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
What is level of support, among Israelis, for the building of a new Temple?
You know, Lechi, AKA "The Stern Gang", despite being led mostly by non-practicing Jews, included building the Temple as part of their mission statement...but times have changed. Nowadays, I would say that Ultra-Orthodox Jews certainly await a Third Temple, although they probably differ from many Orthodox Jews on how this Temple should be built. The vast majority of Orthodox Jews expect a Temple, but differ with UO on how it should be built. Among Masorti ("traditional") Jews, who make up the majority of Jewish Israelis (although UO are gaining fast), I assume the more knowledgeable have some degree of interest, while others not or have no opinion. Secular, atheists are probably totally against. I once queried some Reform Jews on their views of a Temple, but didn't receive a straight answer. Reform and Conservative are only a tiny minority in Israel, though (to get a basic picture, there are over 15,000 Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox synagogues in Israel but only around 50 Reform).

The animal lover in me hates the thought of animal sacrifices resuming, I must say.
Do you eat meat?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Copper Scroll

According to the Wikipedia link, above, some scholars believe that the Romans had captured the fortune, perhaps by torture.

Many things, thought to have been lost through the ages, I believe, are in the possession of their original owners (progeny), and not lost at all. For example, the Ark of the Covenant was only supposed to be opened every 1,000 years by the Jewish calendar, but it was opened in the Christian year 2,000 since we are in the end times now, and the world will end soon. It is such a valuable item that the owners don't wish it to be known to exist.

The treasure might have been from 586 BC at the destruction of Solomon's temple (at the hands of Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar). Solomon's gold mines have recently been found (a lot of slag litters the area).

Are you saying that people know the whereabouts of the Ark of the Covenant?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You know, Lechi, AKA "The Stern Gang", despite being led mostly by non-practicing Jews, included building the Temple as part of their mission statement...but times have changed. Nowadays, I would say that Ultra-Orthodox Jews certainly await a Third Temple, although they probably differ from many Orthodox Jews on how this Temple should be built. The vast majority of Orthodox Jews expect a Temple, but differ with UO on how it should be built. Among Masorti ("traditional") Jews, who make up the majority of Jewish Israelis (although UO are gaining fast), I assume the more knowledgeable have some degree of interest, while others not or have no opinion. Secular, atheists are probably totally against. I once queried some Reform Jews on their views of a Temple, but didn't receive a straight answer. Reform and Conservative are only a tiny minority in Israel, though (to get a basic picture, there are over 15,000 Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox synagogues in Israel but only around 50 Reform).


Do you eat meat?

Do you know of any scriptures, or Talmudic passages, that provide support for another temple? What do you understand the primary motivation for rebuilding to be?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm willing to accept that people with good intentions get things wrong. That's far from stating that a person sets out to dupe others.

I do not agree with Ron Wyatt's beliefs about Sodom and Gomorrah. The more likely position, IMO, is north of the Dead Sea.

I do not believe that God is a liar.
Sodom and Gomorrah were simply like so many other stories in the Bible simple myth. No one has come close to "finding" Sodom and Gomorrah, what has happened is that amateurs have misinterpreted perfectly natural formations.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Of course I am judging Barfield. The first thing a person of intelligence does, when presented with new claims that are at odds with previous understanding, is to consider whether the source looks reliable. (If you don't do that, you end up believing Washington is run by a a secret cabal of paedophiles.:D )

It is just applying your critical faculties. Don't you teach your students to do this? Today, the internet is simply full of junk and false information. It is vital to scrutinise sources to avoid being misled.

I quite agree that we should use our critical faculties, and I believe that this is what Barfield has used.

To believe that the Bible is God's Word also requires critical faculties. It should be apparent from the RFs that anyone claiming to believe in God, and the Bible as the Word of God, will have to justify their beliefs in the face of critical opposition.

If a person feels confident that the Bible provides a convincing history of Israel, then it makes perfect sense to apply this confidence to the field of archaeology.

I would argue that archaeology continues to support the Biblical accounts, and vice versa. Even today, watching the Pope in Ur in Iraq, I am reminded of the amazing finds throughout the Middle East that support the Bible narrative.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you know of any scriptures
It would take time to compile all of the verses, but here are a few:
"I will bring them to My sacred mount And let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices Shall be welcome on My altar; For My House shall be called A house of prayer for all peoples." (Isa. 56:7)​

"And in that day, a great ram’s horn shall be sounded; and the strayed who are in the land of Assyria and the expelled who are in the land of Egypt shall come and worship the LORD on the holy mount, in Jerusalem." (Isa. 27:13)

"In that day, even the bells on the horses shall be inscribed “Holy to the LORD.” The metal pots in the House of the LORD shall be like the basins before the altar" (Zech. 14:20)
Talmudic passages
See all of Seder Kodashim and Seder Taharot, Tractate Horayot in Seder Nezikin, Tractates Nazir and Sotah in Seder Nashim, Tractates Brachot, Pe'ah, Terumot, Ma'asrot, Ma'aser Sheni and Bikurim in Seder Z'raim, plus mentions in just about all other tractates. Not to mention hundreds of references in the Midrash.

These tractates are dedicated to laws that concern the Temple and were compiled over the decades and centuries after the destruction of the Second Temple. Were these laws thought to no longer be applicable, obviously nothing would have been written about them.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I quite agree that we should use our critical faculties, and I believe that this is what Barfield has used.

To believe that the Bible is God's Word also requires critical faculties. It should be apparent from the RFs that anyone claiming to believe in God, and the Bible as the Word of God, will have to justify their beliefs in the face of critical opposition.

If a person feels confident that the Bible provides a convincing history of Israel, then it makes perfect sense to apply this confidence to the field of archaeology.

I would argue that archaeology continues to support the Biblical accounts, and vice versa. Even today, watching the Pope in Ur in Iraq, I am reminded of the amazing finds throughout the Middle East that support the Bible narrative.

I would disagree. The finds of Wyatt and Barfield are based upon ad hoc arguments only. Just like the other sciences to be valid one must have a testable hypothesis to even begin to claim that one has evidence. That means one must be able to answer the question: What reasonable possible observations would refute your claims?

Worse yet is when observations are based upon misinterpretations as shown in the video that I linked earlier. That refutes the claim of such as Wyatt.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Sodom and Gomorrah were simply like so many other stories in the Bible simple myth. No one has come close to "finding" Sodom and Gomorrah, what has happened is that amateurs have misinterpreted perfectly natural formations.

Just a myth...yet believed by Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, Jesus, Peter and Paul [to name but a few who refer to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah]

The Books of Moses provide us with a fairly detailed description of the five cities (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar) in the Vale of Siddim. This vale was near the Jordan river [Genesis 14:1-3, 10] not far from Jericho, and contained 'slime pits', and was overlooked by a mountain. Of these five cities, four were destroyed and one, Zoar, remained.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Just a myth...yet believed by Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, Jesus, Peter and Paul [to name but a few who refer to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah]

The Books of Moses provide us with a fairly detailed description of the five cities (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar) in the Vale of Siddim. This vale was near the Jordan river [Genesis 14:1-3, 10] not far from Jericho, and contained 'slime pits', and was overlooked by a mountain. Of these five cities, four were destroyed and one, Zoar, remained.
Oh my, Moses was almost certainly mythical. In fact most of your characters look to be mythical. How would you demonstrate that they actually existed? Myths believing in a myth is not very convincing.

Even the people that may have been real believing it does not help you at all. One needs a rational reason for belief and be able to support that claim to be used as a resoruce.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I quite agree that we should use our critical faculties, and I believe that this is what Barfield has used.

To believe that the Bible is God's Word also requires critical faculties. It should be apparent from the RFs that anyone claiming to believe in God, and the Bible as the Word of God, will have to justify their beliefs in the face of critical opposition.

If a person feels confident that the Bible provides a convincing history of Israel, then it makes perfect sense to apply this confidence to the field of archaeology.

I would argue that archaeology continues to support the Biblical accounts, and vice versa. Even today, watching the Pope in Ur in Iraq, I am reminded of the amazing finds throughout the Middle East that support the Bible narrative.
None of this changes the evidence that Barfield does not seem to know what he's doing and is dismissed by the people that do know what they are doing in this field.

And Shelley Neese is making money out of promoting these ideas.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
You know, Lechi, AKA "The Stern Gang", despite being led mostly by non-practicing Jews, included building the Temple as part of their mission statement...but times have changed. Nowadays, I would say that Ultra-Orthodox Jews certainly await a Third Temple, although they probably differ from many Orthodox Jews on how this Temple should be built. The vast majority of Orthodox Jews expect a Temple, but differ with UO on how it should be built. Among Masorti ("traditional") Jews, who make up the majority of Jewish Israelis (although UO are gaining fast), I assume the more knowledgeable have some degree of interest, while others not or have no opinion. Secular, atheists are probably totally against. I once queried some Reform Jews on their views of a Temple, but didn't receive a straight answer. Reform and Conservative are only a tiny minority in Israel, though (to get a basic picture, there are over 15,000 Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox synagogues in Israel but only around 50 Reform).


Do you eat meat?

Thanks, that was very informative.

I have another question if you don't mind. Is it thought by, say, the UO, that if a new Temple is built God would "automatically" dwell there again, in the HaDvir? Or would something else need to transpire for that in-dwelling of God's presence to happen? Hopefully this is not too ignorant a question :)

And no, I stopped eating meat during the Regan administration ;)
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I have another question if you don't mind. Is it thought by, say, the UO, that if a new Temple is built God would "automatically" dwell there again, in the HaDvir? Or would something else need to transpire for that in-dwelling of God's presence to happen? Hopefully this is not too ignorant a question :)
That's a curious question. I don't know what exact factors would bring about a Temple descending from the heavens - of course, heavily debated in Judaism - but when this happens, does that automatically mean that God's presence is in it or not? Because according to halacha (Jewish law), for God's presence to be present in the Land of Israel, the majority of Israel must be in their land.
And no, I stopped eating meat during the Regan administration ;)
Is this a joke about the administration?
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
That's a curious question. I don't know what exact factors would bring about a Temple descending from the heavens - of course, heavily debated in Judaism - but when this happens, does that automatically mean that God's presence is in it or not? Because according to halacha (Jewish law), for God's presence to be present in the Land of Israel, the majority of Israel must be in their land.

Is this a joke about the administration?

Interesting, thanks.

No, not a joke about Regan, just pointing out that I am old :)
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Oh my, Moses was almost certainly mythical. In fact most of your characters look to be mythical. How would you demonstrate that they actually existed? Myths believing in a myth is not very convincing.

Even the people that may have been real believing it does not help you at all. One needs a rational reason for belief and be able to support that claim to be used as a resoruce.

Do the Jews not have a heritage?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
What do you mean by 'myth'?

And at what point in the long history of Israel do you think 'actual' replaces 'mythological'?
History may start to emerge from the clouds of myth around 1000BC. It seems most historians think King David was a a historical figure, though nothing is known about him: David

There seems to be an inscribed stone at Tel-Dan, from the c.9th-8th BC referring to the House of David.
 
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