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15 dollar an hour minimum wage hike....... oh oh..

esmith

Veteran Member
I agree, although capitalists will never go for that. That's why the migrant workers have remained in legal limbo as neither major party wants to change the status quo. A major crackdown on undocumented workers would bring about economic chaos, or so say the businesses that benefit from it. But then, they also don't want to make them legal either, since the workers would then be protected by labor laws, OSHA - and businesses would be subject to the same rules as in the domestic labor market.
Then all a current illegal alien has to do is apply for a Temporary Work Visa prior to entering the country. Then of course all they have to do is overstay their Visa and they are back to being an illegal alien.
So, what is the answer, in your opinion, to those people who are in the country illegaly.
The only answer to regulating the Visa program is to "chip" everyone coming into the country. But of course that is, hopefully, never going to happen, but it is probably the only answer. "Big Brother is watching". Then of course why not just "chip" everyone; think how easy it would be to locate those that break the law.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

tytlyf

Not Religious
Just a off the wall question. Have you ever worked for a business that had more than 1 employee?
Yes, many.
If you had, then you would know that when there is a shortage of qualified empoyees to fil a position the incentivities and salaries increase.
Depends on the line of work. The discussion we're having is about minimum wage jobs. McDonald's doesn't have a shortage of aspiring employees. Most MW jobs don't have shortages.
Stay on topic.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Just a off the wall question. Have you ever worked for a business that had more than 1 employee?
If you had, then you would know that when there is a shortage of qualified empoyees to fil a position the incentivities and salaries increase.

Google: How many applicants does the average job get?

Featured snippet from the web
On average, a corporate job post receives 250 resumes.
If you were wondering how many applicants there are per job post, here's your answer. Job application statistics indicate that some 250 candidates apply when a position opens up in a large corporation.​

What is the average number of applicants per job?

The average number of applicants per job opening is 29. (Jobvite) According to the latest Recruiting Benchmark report from Jobvite, 29 is the number for 2018. The most recent trends are essential here as well.​


For which specific positions in which industries would there be "a shortage of qualified employees"?

How does your comment relate to positions for which minimum wages are offered?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Why should people who might have not even graduated from high school and never went to college automatically make $20 an hour? Why should they even make $15? Some college graduates don't even make that much and they might have had to take out student loans they have to pay back.
Why shouldn't they, if that's how much it takes to live, pay rent, etc.?

What incentive is there for people to get an education if they can make that much money without a college degree?
Doctors, lawyers, etc. make a lot more than minimum wage.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Why should people who might have not even graduated from high school and never went to college automatically make $20 an hour? Why should they even make $15? Some college graduates don't even make that much and they might have had to take out student loans they have to pay back.

What incentive is there for people to get an education if they can make that much money without a college degree?
Because we have bills to pay and roofs to keep over our heads, too.

Where do you get this idea that everyone needs to go to college? The vast majority of jobs do not require specialized formal education. This "you need a degree" idea is only from the past few decades, due to the switchover to a service and tech based economy. Before, all you had to do was get a good blue collar union job snd you'd be set for life. You could raise a family and own a home just with that, doing manual labor.

Going to college would be a waste of time for most people, and probably most of the people in college are wasting their time with useless degrees. Not to mention that, unless you're wealthy or on a scholarship, you're going to rack up huge amounts of debt. It's just that, because the economy has been so upended and the working class has been so destroyed, the only jobs that pay really well are tech jobs that require degrees. Most people aren't suited for those sorts of jobs, either, which is just sitting around and staring at screens. That's especially not good for men and boys, who are already failing in school. College is mostly a female thing now.

Are white collar jobs somehow more valuable to society than blue collar, working class, retail, etc. jobs? Let all grocery and food workers walk off the job and see how long society lasts. We're the ones holding up society.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why shouldn't they, if that's how much it takes to live, pay rent, etc.?
Imo, everyone should have enough to live on, whatever that is, regardless of what job they do, as long as they are willing to work. But people should not live beyond their means, so they should not buy cars they cannot afford or have children if they cannot afford to support them. They should not expect the government to support children they chose to have, not anymore than they should expect the government to pay for their boat loan. Birth control is available to low income people so there is no excuse for bringing children into the world knowing they do not make enough money to support them. We have seven cats but only because we can afford to take them to the vet whenever they need to go.
Doctors, lawyers, etc. make a lot more than minimum wage.
As they should, given how many years and how much money it took to obtain that education.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because we have bills to pay and roofs to keep over our heads, too.
Fair enough. Everyone should make at least a living wage, whatever that is. I don't know what that is, because economics was not a subject I took in college. As such, I never should have even gotten involved on a thread like this, but it is not uncommon for me to do things I shouldn't for which I am sorry later. I am the queen of mistakes. :rolleyes:
Where do you get this idea that everyone needs to go to college? The vast majority of jobs do not require specialized formal education. This "you need a degree" idea is only from the past few decades, due to the switchover to a service and tech based economy. Before, all you had to do was get a good blue collar union job and you'd be set for life. You could raise a family and own a home just with that, doing manual labor.
But those days are over because the world has changed. There will always be some blue collar jobs but not as many, but there are also a lot of other kinds of work that people can make good money at such as the trades. Construction contractors make big bucks if they have their own business and roofers and mechanics can make good money. Of course they will make less if they work for someone else. Unfortunately for some people, retail is not a very high-paying job, unless you work for a company like Costco. Sales is also not a way to make a lot of money unless you are a good salesman.
Going to college would be a waste of time for most people, and probably most of the people in college are wasting their time with useless degrees. Not to mention that, unless you're wealthy or on a scholarship, you're going to rack up huge amounts of debt. It's just that, because the economy has been so upended and the working class has been so destroyed, the only jobs that pay really well are tech jobs that require degrees. Most people aren't suited for those sorts of jobs, either, which is just sitting around and staring at screens. That's especially not good for men and boys, who are already failing in school. College is mostly a female thing now.
State colleges should offer free tuition for in-state students, but not everyone is suited for college and if they don't like doing those kinds of desk jobs they should consider a different line of work.
Are white collar jobs somehow more valuable to society than blue collar, working class, retail, etc. jobs? Let all grocery and food workers walk off the job and see how long society lasts. We're the ones holding up society.
No, I do not think that white collar jobs are more valuable than retail or grocery or restaurant jobs. All these jobs are necessary for a functioning society. Moreover, I think that people who work in these jobs should make a union wage and be able to move up the ladder into management positions. Yes, you are essential workers, just as essential as nurses and doctors and teachers.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Then all a current illegal alien has to do is apply for a Temporary Work Visa prior to entering the country. Then of course all they have to do is overstay their Visa and they are back to being an illegal alien.
So, what is the answer, in your opinion, to those people who are in the country illegaly.
The only answer to regulating the Visa program is to "chip" everyone coming into the country. But of course that is, hopefully, never going to happen, but it is probably the only answer. "Big Brother is watching". Then of course why not just "chip" everyone; think how easy it would be to locate those that break the law.

In my opinion, the first answer required when addressing the issue of illegal immigrants is for Congress and the US government to either poop or get off the pot. They have to make a decision one way or the other.

On the one hand, if our government decides that illegal immigration is an intolerable problem which must be stopped no matter what, then I would say their best bet would be to go after the employers of undocumented workers. They might have to put some teeth in the law to make it a real deterrent.

Or, on the other hand, if the government considers them vital to the economy, then steps should be taken to make them legal, which would protect them from exploitation and/or sub-standard working conditions.

We also have to give long and careful consideration, and ask ourselves why we feel the need to have a huge border wall and other such security measures at the border. What is it about Mexico that frightens some people? Most of the problems along the border right now is due to the war on drugs, which badly needs to end.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Then all a current illegal alien has to do is apply for a Temporary Work Visa prior to entering the country. Then of course all they have to do is overstay their Visa and they are back to being an illegal alien.
So, what is the answer, in your opinion, to those people who are in the country illegaly.
The only answer to regulating the Visa program is to "chip" everyone coming into the country. But of course that is, hopefully, never going to happen, but it is probably the only answer. "Big Brother is watching". Then of course why not just "chip" everyone; think how easy it would be to locate those that break the law.
The one method that will completely 100% solve issues of illegal immigration is to make all forms of immigration legal.

It's not something anybody would ever agree with, but I want to note that this is always an option in theory, and one that will always work.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
The one method that will completely 100% solve issues of illegal immigration is to make all forms of immigration legal.

It's not something anybody would ever agree with, but I want to note that this is always an option in theory, and one that will always work.
um, yeah ... except that it would never work.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The thing I dont get is people claim other countries are more attractive then the US.

So why are those countries hardly ever mentioned when it comes to comparing illegals and immigration vs the US?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What's interesting to think about is that with globalization, the intention to limit employer ability to underpay workers has had a giant wrench thrown into it. Fair competition isn't possible when labor is massively outsourced to low-wage countries.
... to an extent, though I question how much bearing these low-wage countries have on the minimum wage in places like the US.

I mean, apparently the national minimum wage in India works out to $2.80 US per day. Even with the minimum wage at $7.50/h, I imagine that any minimum wage jobs that are still in the US are ones that can't easily be moved overseas.

The jobs at risk of moving overseas because of a minimum wage hikes are the ones where:

- the jobs can be outsourced to a low-wage country at all, just for practical reasons,
- the economics of outsourcing them doesn't make sense at $7.50/h, AND
- the economics of outsourcing them does make sense at $15/h.

I imagine that this is a very narrow category of jobs.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
The thing I dont get is people claim other countries are more attractive then the US.

So why are those countries hardly ever mentioned when it comes to comparing illegals and immigration vs the US?
Honestly, I don't know. Many European countries take in similar numbers of migrants as the US does when you factor in their much smaller population numbers and much higher population density.

On the other hand, naturalization would be generally easier for most migrants to the US than Europe, so the US is probably less likely to find itself with a large population of second class citizens in the long run.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The thing I dont get is people claim other countries are more attractive then the US.

So why are those countries hardly ever mentioned when it comes to comparing illegals and immigration vs the US?
If I had to guess, it's because you're only watching US news.

Canadian news regularly features stories about asylum seekers sneaking across the US border into Canada. An example:

Asylum seekers continue to cross Canada-U.S. border despite shutdown

You can find similar stories worldwide of people trying to flee one country to get to somewhere with better conditions, whether they're going from North Africa into Europe, or from Southeast Asia into Australia, or from the US into Canada, etc., etc.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I wonder how the people of California would react when, after careful analysis, it was determined the Minimum Federal Wage for Los Angeles and the surrounding areas should be $35.00 / Hr.
That's LA and the surrounding areas. That place, and San Fransisco, are expensive places. The rest of California not so much. I've paid most "about the same to a bit more" than I was in Indiana, but I make way more money here so I come out ahead.
I suspect the larger cities in Alabama would have a higher rate than the rural areas. Probably every state would be like that. Capitol cities and large cities would need more than the state average, rural areas would need less than a state average. I'm willing to bet that holds up in all states, perhaps in most-if not all-countries.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
New The thing I dont get is people claim other countries are more attractive then the US.
For me, in so many other countries I wouldn't have to worry about my medical expenses. But here they have been a tremendous burden most of my adult life, once I tuned 18 and lost all coverage I had. Since then I went for years without any coverage, insurance plans that did not prevent my savings being drained multiple times, and at best state-insurance plans that leave money in my pockets.
 
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