Just 43% of Americans Identify as Protestant

Nivek001 · Mar 4, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
@Nivek001
It's clear to me you have no intention but repeating "you haven't proven" every time I cite something from the Bible.”

Like what? All you gave is your interpretation of what the Bible says. You haven’t proven that your interpretation is the correct interpretation.

“What have you cited from the Bible that proves
You doing that is a part of why people are leaving the Church,”

And your point is?

I’m not going over popularity. Popularity does not equal truth. Popularity is only popularity. That argument has as much validity as if so one in early dark age Western Europe came to the manor and proclaimed the earth is round and the people there just scoff because after all the popular take is that a round earth is crazy talk.

“Your blinders are so tightly secured you don't realize what your doing is being listed as a reason people are leaving your primitive religion.”

And your proof that it’s I who is turning a blind eye is what? You saying so even though you refuse to accept that you have no solid proof to back up the claim that God is judging out of bloodthirst instead of authority and wisdom beyond our limited understanding?

“But do keep doing it, Please and thank you. Please do me the favor and continue to make Christianity look so unappealing to the masses that people won't consider joining it and those who have will leave because they realize the ship is sinking fast.”

How does my pointing out that your interpretation is nothing more than your interpretation is making the masses leave religion in droves?

Nivek001 · Mar 4, 2021

halbhh said:
”Perhaps it would be helpful to realize I've never suggested anywhere that the resurrection isn't a new life. Nor even partly suggested so. I think you've accidentally mistaken me as having some other view than mine.”

You posted the following:

“I think you are trying to ask about whether this is the only life we have. If God exists, then this isn't the only life we have.”

That is not the case. If a God who is resurrected for our sakes exists and we will be resurrected eventually, then that resurrected life is a new life God will give to us.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 4, 2021

thomas t said:
The cross - damaging and traumatizing?

Are you denying the what the author's daughter went through?

thomas t said:
That's the personal opinion of one author.
No studies, no testing, nothing.
Just presumption and one anecdote.
An anecdote can't prove their point that the story was potentially damaging.
Maybe the Catholic way of presenting it was...
In that single case.

Religious Trauma Syndrome
Religious Trauma & Transitions — RESTORATION COUNSELING

Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) is group of symptoms that arise in response to traumatic or stressful religious experiences. While Religious Trauma Syndrome is not an official diagnosis in the DSM-5, it is a common experience shared among many who have escaped cults, fundamentalist religious groups, abusive religious settings, or other painful experiences with religion. The symptoms of Religious Trauma Syndrome are comparable to the symptoms of complex PTSD.

Religious Trauma Syndrome is in the early stages of research and is gaining traction as a legitimate diagnosis. Below are some symptoms commonly experienced by people suffering from Religious Trauma Syndrome.

thomas t said:
The cross - damaging and traumatizing?

It did a pretty nasty deal of damage to me.

halbhh · Mar 4, 2021

Nivek001 said:
You posted the following:

“I think you are trying to ask about whether this is the only life we have. If God exists, then this isn't the only life we have.”

That is not the case. If a God who is resurrected for our sakes exists and we will be resurrected eventually, then that resurrected life is a new life God will give to us.

Analogy:
I said some stuff like: A + B = C,
and then you respond: "No, that's not right. Instead B + A = C"

That's what appears to be happening here to me.
You keep saying something to me like this: "If a God who is resurrected for our sakes exists and we will be resurrected eventually, then that resurrected life is a new life God will give to us."

Which is exactly what I've thought and understood and assumed now for almost 20 years.

Or even longer actually, as that was my understanding of the common bible content even before I gained any faith. But you are saying it as if you think I don't get it, which is how the above analogy comes to mind. We seem to have serious communication barriers of some kind.

thomas t · Mar 4, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
Are you denying the what the author's daughter went through?

Religious Trauma Syndrome
Religious Trauma & Transitions — RESTORATION COUNSELING

It did a pretty nasty deal of damage to me.

I don't deny that the daughter went through some sort of trauma.
But I don't believe that it was a cross.
It was the way in which it was presented combined with a lack of information about why Jesus went to the cross maybe.

Yes certainly there can be religious trauma.
It all depends on how the information is presented.
Moreover, not all the information contained in the Bible are for children.
Hell, for instance, is definitely not a topic for children.
I do believe that this can traumatize children.

Nivek001 · Mar 4, 2021

halbhh said:
”A helpful principle to remember is that of course some Catholics or Protestants are going to make it (people/souls are not actually controlled much by the random associations they grew up in, and salvation and following is individual) and some or many are not going to make it (in the clear sense He says in Matthew chapter 7), and the same holds for people in any grouping, including ones we like or know and ones we don't.

halbhh said:
Analogy:
I said some stuff like: A + B = C,
and then you respond: "No, that's not right. Instead B + A = C"

Actually, I’m the one who is essentially saying A+B=C. It’s you who is saying A+B = A because there is no B since you claim that if there is a God then this life is the only life we have therefore, there is no B.

“That's what appears to be happening here to me.
You keep saying something to me like this: "If a God who is resurrected for our sakes exists and we will be resurrected eventually, then that resurrected life is a new life God will give to us."

Which is exactly what I've thought and understood and assumed now for almost 20 years.”

If that were the case why did you say that this life is the only life we have?

“But you are saying it as if you think I don't get it, which is how the above analogy comes to mind. We seem to have serious communication barriers of some kind.”

Then how about you explaining why you said that this life is the only life we have when you believe that the resurrection is a new life to be given to us, because so far your posts seem to contradict each other.

You STILL haven’t addressed that your posts appear to be contradictory, nor have you stated anything giving why you said that this life is the only life we have.

halbhh · Mar 4, 2021

Nivek001 said:
why you said that this life is the only life we have

! ah! Did I? Ok, please, let's find that and figure out how any miscommunication happened, or if it was someone else, or whatever.
Could it come from post 141-126? In post 141, I was replying to you replying to post 126, and assumed you'd read through that short post, 126, and so 141 does rely on you reading 126. Maybe that's what happened?

Dave Watchman · Mar 4, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
8 words for God: "Bring it on! Do something, for C---'s sake!"

Thanks for capitalizing for C---'s sake!"

Much respect.

And whosoever shall call out on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Dave Watchman · Mar 4, 2021

halbhh said:
A helpful principle to remember is that of course some Catholics or Protestants are going to make it (people/souls are not actually controlled much by the random associations they grew up in, and salvation and following is individual) and some or many are not going to make it (in the clear sense He says in Matthew chapter 7), and the same holds for people in any grouping, including ones we like or know and ones we don't.

Agreed.

The Lord has other sheep in many folds:

1.) Atheism.

2.) Paganism.

3.) Eastern Mysticism.

4.) Islam.

5.) Judaism.

6.) Catholicism.

7.) Protestantism.

There will surely be some from each of these groupings that find the narrow gate.

I'm reminded of that old war saying: "there's no Atheists in foxholes.

There are no atheists in foxholes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as during war ("in foxholes"), all people will believe in, or hope for, a higher power (and there are therefore no atheists).[1]

When the Lord intervenes,

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All people, even the Atheists, who calls out on the name of the Lord at that time, shall be saved.

Nivek001 · Mar 4, 2021

halbhh said:
! ah! Did I? Ok, please, let's find that and figure out how any miscommunication happened, or if it was someone else, or whatever.
Could it come from post 141-126? In post 141, I was replying to you replying to post 126, and assumed you'd read through that short post, 126, and so 141 does rely on you reading 126. Maybe that's what happened?

What post? Really? What part of the following are you having trouble understanding?

“I think you are trying to ask about whether this is the only life we have. If God exists, then this isn't the only life we have.”

That was from post 187

SeekingAllTruth · Mar 4, 2021

Dave Watchman said:
Thanks for capitalizing for C---'s sake!"

Much respect.

And whosoever shall call out on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

I like that!

Shadow Wolf · Mar 4, 2021

thomas t said:
I don't deny that the daughter went through some sort of trauma.
But I don't believe that it was a cross.
It was the way in which it was presented combined with a lack of information about why Jesus went to the cross maybe.

Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. - Thomas Paine.

thomas t said:
Yes certainly there can be religious trauma.
It all depends on how the information is presented.
Moreover, not all the information contained in the Bible are for children.
Hell, for instance, is definitely not a topic for children.
I do believe that this can traumatize children.

That's a very serious problem to tolerate. If it's supposed to be a loving, merciful god but depictions of it and warnings contained within it have the potential to frighten and traumatize children and adults.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 4, 2021

thomas t said:
I don't agree with the analogy of the bolded phrase.
Kings usually don't create their people.
I disagree with the red one.
In my opinion, it's messing with God's rights.

What real right exists that gives god this right? We are self aware and autonomous beings, and yet he would violate us in such ways? To render us as puppets to use as he sees fit? To do with simply as he pleases?
That is very cruel indeed. But, please keep ignoring it. I'll continue to cheer and celebrate as that 43% dwindles further/

thomas t said:
The cross - damaging and traumatizing?
No, I don't think so. If you explain to the children that Jesus died for people to get forgiveness for their sins, it's not traumatizing I think.

How do you explain that though? That because you lied to mommy that man on the cross died or horribly gruesome death so you have a way of not burning in Hell forever* where you belong?
*I'm not interesting in arguing or debating what the Bible says happens to the unsaved. It's inconsistent at best, a fiery furnace and eternal damnation are mentioned in it.

Hockeycowboy · Mar 5, 2021

I think you killed your killed your argument...

Shadow Wolf said:
He knew he wouldn't stay dead and that he'd just be having one lousy weekend compared to the whole of eternity. That isn't really anything of a sacrifice.

...by posting this link from whence comes this excerpt:

“sculptures of Jesus...: bloody, cut, and crying in pain. ....a tortured man in agony.”

You call that a “lousy weekend”, eh?
“That isn't really anything of a sacrifice”?
Right.

This reveals a certain unreasonableness.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 5, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
I think you killed your killed your argument...

...by posting this link from whence comes this excerpt:

“sculptures of Jesus...: bloody, cut, and crying in pain. ....a tortured man in agony.”

You call that a “lousy weekend”, eh?
“That isn't really anything of a sacrifice”?
Right.

This reveals a certain unreasonableness.

If he's a god, if he's immortal, I do not see it as that impressive. One lousy weekend compared to the whole of eternity. Sure, it was a very lousy weekend, but that was it. After that it was all done.

thomas t · Mar 5, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
That's a very serious problem to tolerate. If it's supposed to be a loving, merciful god but depictions of it and warnings contained within it have the potential to frighten and traumatize children and adults.

I don't agree with Thomas Paine.
A good religion has to match reality.
Look around.

Shadow Wolf said:
How do you explain that though? That because you lied to mommy that man on the cross died or horribly gruesome death so you have a way of not burning in Hell forever* where you belong?

ah no, Christian kids can't go to hell according to 1 Corinthians 7:14b. This is at least my interpretation of that verse.
Note that God said that problems begin when they turn youths: Genesis 8:21b.
So hell shouldn't be a topic for kids when they aren't concerned anyway, I think.

Shadow Wolf said:
What real right exists that gives god this right? We are self aware and autonomous beings, and yet he would violate us in such ways? To render us as puppets to use as he sees fit? To do with simply as he pleases?
That is very cruel indeed.

It's not cruel, in my opinion.
According to you we are autonomous.
I doubt it.
I suppose God's grace just needs to cease helping mankind.... and all would die.

Hockeycowboy · Mar 5, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
If he's a god, if he's immortal, I do not see it as that impressive. One lousy weekend compared to the whole of eternity. Sure, it was a very lousy weekend, but that was it. After that it was all done.

Now, imagine the Parent of that son, seeing his only-begotten go through something like that!

Is there any wonder why the skies grew dark, and the Earth quaked, when His son died?

BTW, Jesus died. He was mortal, not immortal (at the time.)

But death is death....whether dead for 3 days or 2,000 years.

The dead “know nothing.” Ecclesiastes 9:5

halbhh · Mar 5, 2021

Nivek001 said:
What post? Really? What part of the following are you having trouble understanding?

“I think you are trying to ask about whether this is the only life we have. If God exists, then this isn't the only life we have.”

That was from post 187

Right: it's clear I hope, that wording -- because God exists, then there is -- must be -- more than only this mortal life in this temporary body. "God" implies a next life, whenever anyone used the word.

That's useful in discussions, because if someone, such as an atheist, uses the word "God" in a discussion, they are referring (even if they don't realize it) to the One Who makes death of this body into only "sleep" (the wording repeated in scripture, and used also by Jesus the Christ). Instantly we can see then that any attempt by atheists to accuse God of such terms as 'genocide' is illogical, as God is Himself the causation that the death of this mortal body is only a transition to what comes next, so it's not a final death. Sometimes I've tried to help some more open minded atheists realize what God did to those that perished in the Flood was much like the British Transportation of criminals to Australia in the 19th century (as we see in 1rst Peter chapter 3, v18-20) -- they were simply transported into being "spirits in prison" and later Christ Himself would come to proclaim the gospel to them! (1rst Peter chapters 3 and 4).

Shadow Wolf · Mar 5, 2021

thomas t said:
I don't agree with Thomas Paine.
A good religion has to match reality.
Look around.

Reality is it makes zero sense to have someone else pay the price for your mistakes. Reality is, how this "plan of forgiveness" came into fruition can be very shocking and disturbing to a child, from the Christs death, the idea of sin, and eternal punishment.

thomas t said:
ah no, Christian kids can't go to hell according to 1 Corinthians 7:14b.

We are discussing a situation where the kid is not Christian.
And, according to some Christian views even unbaptised infants go to Hell.

thomas t said:
It's not cruel, in my opinion.
According to you we are autonomous.
I doubt it.

That would mean god is far more wicked and savage than previously thought, as now he has us as automatons with no will who have to do what god intended us to do. That means, if we are not autonomous, then it is Jehovah who made it so that I will say "**** Jehovah." That wasn't me. I'm not autonomous. It was Jehovah who doesn't let us be that way but apparently only gives us the illusion we are, but we are only puppets to him.

thomas t said:
and all would die.

Guess what? We all die in the end regardless.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 5, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Now, imagine the Parent of that son, seeing his only-begotten go through something like that!

Is there any wonder why the skies grew dark, and the Earth quaked, when His son died?

BTW, Jesus died. He was mortal, not immortal (at the time.)

But death is death....whether dead for 3 days or 2,000 years.

The dead “know nothing.” Ecclesiastes 9:5

I would be forced to, and willingly would without obligation, report such a **** parent to the authorities over such a heinous case of abuse having planned that and made it so it had to be. I'd do what I could to make sure that monster is never able to harm another child.
And it makes no sense to be upset over it. Jesus didn't die, he didn't go away, he had a rotten day on Earth and--depending on the denomination--spent one lousy weekend in Hell before, as he and the father knew would happen--he returned and was healed and ok.
Jehovah has no right to be upset over things he planned and set up, over a corrupted system he has neglected to fix.

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