War, the final battle.

I found this question asked by Shoghi Effendi, it is applicable to this OP.

".. Must humanity, tormented as she now is, be afflicted with still severer tribulations ere their purifying influence can prepare her to enter the heavenly Kingdom destined to be established upon earth? Must the inauguration of so vast, so unique, so illumined an era in human history be ushered in by so great a catastrophe in human affairs as to recall, nay surpass, the appalling collapse of Roman civilization in the first centuries of the Christian Era? Must a series of profound convulsions stir and rock the human race ere Bahá’u’lláh can be enthroned in the hearts and consciences of the masses, ere His undisputed ascendancy is universally recognized, and the noble edifice of His World Order is reared and established?.. "

So that is what a Baha'i would consider, what about you?

How will we find unity, while our minds are do divided?

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I can assure you, there ample ample warnings given.

This is worth a thought.

"There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth."

Shoghi Effendi, Japan Will Turn Ablaze, p. 51

Regards Tony

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Yeah yeah yeah. These prophecies are all the same, carefully vague, to leave a get-out when nothing in particular happens.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

What is your vision of the future of this world?

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Swallowed by the sun when it gets nova.

Ciao

- viole

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I look forward for the most great justice for all those that are persecuted and suffer at the hands of others.

Regards Tony

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Really? Because your OP doesn't mention anything about the unjust. It does mention unbelievers, though.

exchemist said:

Absolutely.

And this does not address the many millions of lives saved via the, now routine use of antibiotics, which did not even exist until the middle of the c.20th. (Like most advances, this is not without its own problems, viz. bacterial resistance, but the progress has been indisputable.)

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I figure doomsday predictors can't read history. There have been so many wonderful advancements in so many areas. It must be hard on a person's emotions to live in the city of pessimism.

TagliatelliMonster said:

He didn't say that no attrocities in the world occur today.
So your "argument" is really just a strawman.

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He was also saying the world is progressing? Atrocities are continually occurring. One finishes another starts.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

A great battle is unfolding.

Religious orthodoxy has failed. The rule of Nations has failed. Our material civilization has failed.

The war between what is good and what is not good is approaching a final battle.

It brings verse 30 of the Quran to light

"Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah."

What is your vision of the future of this world?

Regards Tony

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I can not predict the future, but spiritually it does not look good, not that spiritual teaching struggle in it self, but because of the time we are in more and more people will fall away from spiritual practice and belief. Being spiritual today seems more difficult today than before.
I still believe spiritual practice will win in the end. On a personal level i see difficulties every day, but one can not give up

Here's some charts on a site showing actual deaths by wars annually over the last 70 years, and more. Anyone who can read a graph can see the general decline.

War and Peace

oldbadger said:

When I awoke this morning all was light and happiness, the ducks were quacking and the little hounds yapping for breakfast.......... and then I read your doom and gloom Tony.

The World has looked decidely dodgy on many occasions in the past. Much more dodgy than it looks today. So cheer up and may you wake up in the morning as cheerfully as I felt this morning here.

Your God is not listening, not there, cannot help. How do I know this? Because God didn't help in Cambodia, or Burma, or Northern Ireland, or Rwanda, Tony.

God is so vast that he does not notice us. So let's get on with it.

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God notices for sure but He has told us it’s our duty to clean up our own mess not His. He sent Baha’u’llah to humanity with teachings of oneness, unity and collective security which, if we adopted and carried them out there wouldn’t have been a Cambodia, Burma Northern Ireland or Rwanda but we refused expecting God to do everything for us. Simply not on.

And until we wake up to ourselves and realise that we have to fix the world not God, nothing is going to change.

It’s up to people to establish justice in the world not God.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The war between what is good and what is not good is approaching a final battle.

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I resist the temptation to predict the future, yet alone the direction of divine providence. But if there is anything to Biblical prophecy then what will eventuate is clear. Humanity will divide into two diametrically opposed camps; the good and the bad. (Of course, the bad will see themselves as the good). And unfortunately, the majority will side with the bad. Evil will be called good and the good will be more and more denigrated.

On that final point I tentatively speculate that this is what is beginning to occur. In mere decades we've seen not just an acceptance of sin, but in many cases an enshrinement of it as a positive good to be celebrated. And being careful not view the past with rose tinted goggles, I do nonetheless think, at the very least, we've become (western society) increasingly vulgar in general. Whether we're approaching a crescendo of evil that culminates in the Final Judgment, or much like the Western Empire, modern civilization simply collapses under its own moral dysfunction is yet to be seen. Or maybe, it is all superstition and we're approaching some technological global utopia, who knows?

All you can do is to keep your own spiritual house in order and trust in God. In the end, God is the one in control. Evil will only go as far as God permits it to.

loverofhumanity said:

He was also saying the world is progressing?

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And it is.

Atrocities are continually occurring

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Which doesn't mean that there isn't progress.

Conscious thoughts said:

I can not predict the future, but spiritually it does not look good, not that spiritual teaching struggle in it self, but because of the time we are in more and more people will fall away from spiritual practice and belief. Being spiritual today seems more difficult today than before.
I still believe spiritual practice will win in the end. On a personal level i see difficulties every day, but one can not give up

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What do you mean by "spirituality" and what does it mean, specifically in real-world practice with real-world effects, that "it does not look good"?

It's not a trap or whatever. It's a serious honest question.

TagliatelliMonster said:

What do you mean by "spirituality" and what does it mean, specifically in real-world practice with real-world effects, that "it does not look good"?

It's not a trap or whatever. It's a serious honest question.

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Spiritual practice =getting closer to God/Allah by practising the teaching.
Open up our being to understand and see the unseen/spiritual realms that is looked to those who do not practice a spiritual teaching.

What you call the "real world" is not what religious/spiritual teaching see as real.

loverofhumanity said:

God notices for sure but He has told us it’s our duty to clean up our own mess not His. He sent Baha’u’llah to humanity with teachings of oneness, unity and collective security which, if we adopted and carried them out there wouldn’t have been a Cambodia, Burma Northern Ireland or Rwanda but we refused expecting God to do everything for us. Simply not on.

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The violent imagery posted in this ghread by the OP suggests that an entirely Baha'i world wouldn't be an entirely peaceful world.

And until we wake up to ourselves and realise that we have to fix the world not God, nothing is going to change.

It’s up to people to establish justice in the world not God.

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I've said the same thing in the context of atheism.

Musing Bassist said:

In mere decades we've seen not just an acceptance of sin, but in many cases an enshrinement of it as a positive good to be celebrated

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Can you give a couple of examples?

Whether we're approaching a crescendo of evil that culminates in the Final Judgment, or much like the Western Empire, modern civilization simply collapses under its own moral dysfunction is yet to be seen.

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Can you please explain in what way "modern civilization" is "morally dysfunctional" as compared to say, 200 years ago? In clear terms please, no vague one-liners. Give examples if need be.

Evil will only go as far as God permits it to.

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Seems to me that in the past, it was always upto humans to put a stop to evil.

God didn't step in to stop the Nazi's. Humans did.

Conscious thoughts said:

Spiritual practice =getting closer to God/Allah by practising the teaching.
Open up our being to understand and see the unseen/spiritual realms that is looked to those who do not practice a spiritual teaching.

What you call the "real world" is not what religious/spiritual teaching see as real.

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You didn't answer the most important part of the question.

What do you mean by "it does not look good"?
And what does that imply? How does that play out in observable effects / manifestations?

In short: what do you mean exactly by "it does not look good"?
What doesn't look good? And what would be the negative effect / implication of that statement?


After all, when one says of something that "it does not look good", one is hinting towards an undesirable outcome in the future.

So what is the undesirable outcome you are alluding to and how will that be the result?

TagliatelliMonster said:

You didn't answer the most important part of the question.

What do you mean by "it does not look good"?
And what does that imply? How does that play out in observable effects / manifestations?

In short: what do you mean exactly by "it does not look good"?
What doesn't look good? And what would be the negative effect / implication of that statement?


After all, when one says of something that "it does not look good", one is hinting towards an undesirable outcome in the future.

So what is the undesirable outcome you are alluding to and how will that be the result?

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It's does not look good means that if humanity continue on the path of leaving God they will be suffering more and more, instead of getting the benefit from God.

If people can not learn to forgive and be good to others it will lead to suffering. And one can see that a lot in todays society. Those who are rich lose their ability to understand God Because money is their God.
Military create more and more weapon that harm more people. And does not care about spiritual growth.

Understanding true peace in mind seem to be less important to people, and materalistic objects become what people seek.

Conscious thoughts said:

It's does not look good means that if humanity continue on the path of leaving God they will be suffering more and more

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How so?



You mean suffer more and more at the hands of muslim terrorists who hate atheists / apostates and want to torture and kill them? (sorry, that was a joke, but it was to easy to pass up )

If people can not learn to forgive and be good to others it will lead to suffering.

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Sorry I don't see what the ability to forgive has to do with god beliefs.
Are you saying atheists can't forgive?

And one can see that a lot in todays society. Those who are rich lose their ability to understand God Because money is their God.
Military create more and more weapon that harm more people. And does not care about spiritual growth.

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I'm sorry I can't follow you at all. You seem all over the place, and nowhere at the same time.

So what are you saying, that capitalism is bad? Making a lot of money is bad?

Understanding true peace in mind seem to be less important to people, and materalistic objects become what people seek.

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Again all over the place.
What does that have to do with god beliefs?

You think theists can't be materialistic?
You think atheists are exclusively materialistic?


Sounds like you are invested heavily in false stereotypes and flawed generalizations.

loverofhumanity said:

God notices for sure but He has told us it’s our duty to clean up our own mess not His.

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So your God just lets so many tragedies and horrors happen?
OK

He sent Baha’u’llah to humanity with teachings of oneness, unity and collective security which, if we adopted and carried them out there wouldn’t have been a Cambodia, Burma Northern Ireland or Rwanda but we refused expecting God to do everything for us. Simply not on.

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So just let millions suffer, eh?

And until we wake up to ourselves and realise that we have to fix the world not God, nothing is going to change.

It’s up to people to establish justice in the world not God.

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So all this nonsense about your houses of justice being guided by God is simply pure bunkum?

We're on our own ?
Well, I'm a Deist so at least I've got that much right.

epronovost said:

There are natural disasters and wars (or episodes of mass bloodhsed) every year so that's not much of a prediction.

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It's gonna be on a massive scale and it will be for a long time. It will get so bad that the governments of the world will fail.