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Jesus is God

Teritos

Active Member
Isaiah 35:4-6
Say to those who are timid of heart: Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God is coming, revenge is coming, the vengeance of God! He himself is coming and will save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be opened; then shall the lame leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute shall rejoice.

Luke 7:22-23
And Jesus answered and said unto them: Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have good news preached to them; and blessed is he who does not take offense at me.

Jesus is God's incarnation. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible wants us to say that Jesus is Yahweh.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I Am He, you will die in your sins.

Isaiah 43:10
You are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and see that I Am He. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
You must first define the word "God". There is no being named God. There is a being named the Father or Heavenly Father. And there is a being who is the Son of the Father. Both of these beings make up what is called God. No, it is not two Gods. Let's say there is a husband named John Doe and a wife named Jane Doe. They make up one family named Doe. Two people, one family. Two beings, one God.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Maybe Jesus wanted to be worshipped, and the authors of the Chrisitan bible felt he was right...

no big whoop
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
..........................................................................................................................................
Isaiah 43:10
You are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and see that I Am He. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none.
I find Yahweh is popular with Hebrew scholars as to how to pronounce God's name ( Tetragrammaton YHWH )
Whereas, Jesus is Not Yahweh but as Yehohshu'a. ( Or Jesus in Greek as Iesous')
So, Isaiah 43:10 is bringing God's personal name to the forefront.
This is why Jesus, as a Jew on Earth, was a witness for his God - John 17:25-26; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You must first define the word "God". There is no being named God. There is a being named the Father or Heavenly Father. And there is a being who is the Son of the Father. Both of these beings make up what is called God. ................................................
Both God and Lord are title words, like Father or Son are titles but none are the Tetragrammaton.
YHWH is Not God but God's name.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I look at it as if "God" is a last name. You have Father God and Jesus God. Two "persons" but making up one God. Just like John Doe and Jane Doe are two persons making up one Doe family.
I see what you mean, and I agree with the concept, but rather than thinking of "God" as a last name, I think of it as a title that two individuals share.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I see what you mean, and I agree with the concept, but rather than thinking of "God" as a last name, I think of it as a title that two individuals share.
I can see that. Last name is probably not the best wat to describe it. Maybe think of a sports team. Several players make up one team. Several "persons" make up one God. I think we agree on the basic idea. Thanks.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Isaiah 35:4-6
Say to those who are timid of heart: Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God is coming, revenge is coming, the vengeance of God! He himself is coming and will save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be opened; then shall the lame leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute shall rejoice.

Luke 7:22-23
And Jesus answered and said unto them: Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have good news preached to them; and blessed is he who does not take offense at me.

Jesus is God's incarnation. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible wants us to say that Jesus is Yahweh.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I Am He, you will die in your sins.

Isaiah 43:10
You are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and see that I Am He. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none.
Isaiah is not about Jesus as it's about the Israelites in exile in the Babylonian Empire several hundred years before Jesus' time. The "Suffering Servant" account is Israel personified. In Christianity, the "Suffering Servant" is sort of a prototype for Jesus, thus persecuted but then redeemed.

In Catholicism, we do not believe Jesus is God the Father but is of God the Father, much like the Holy Spirit is. To have Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit actually being God would make Christianity polytheistic, which is not what we believe in.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Here is something I just thought of that gives an idea what God is like. Years ago I had a brief job "out in the middle of nowhere". There was no place to buy food so I had to carry my lunch with me. So let's say I put one sandwich and one apple in my lunchbox. That means there were two completely separate and different items in my lunchbox. But it was perfectly correct for me to say there was ONE lunch in my lunchbox. Two items but one lunch. Now I know God cannot fit in a box but let's pretend for a minute. If I put the Father and the Son in a box, that would be two separate and different persons just like the sandwich and apple are two separate things. But I could also say that everything in the box is ONE God just like one lunch. Now the Bible says God is a spirit. Not God has a spirit. So everything in the box is a spirit. And God is holy so everything in the box is holy. So everythging in the box is a holy spirit. Two persons, one spirit, one God. God does not need a separate third person spirit because God IS a spirit. Now all this talk about lunch is making me hungry so I will check back later to see why people think this description of God is wrong. I'm sure there will be many reasons.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Now the Bible says God is a spirit. Not God has a spirit.
Whether God is "a spirit" or just "spirit" depends upon which transaction of the Bible you're using. In Greek, there are no indefinite articles (a and an), so "God is spirit" is just as accurate a translation as "God is a spirit" is. The thing is, the Bible also tells us that "God is light" and "God is love." Therefore, if He is spirit, light and love, those three things must be some of His attributes rather than an attempt to define Him. But here's what I find interesting: Elsewhere in the Bible, "pneuma" is generally translated, not as meaning "spirit," but as meaning "life." So, it is actually just as accurate to say that "God is life" as it is to say that "God is spirit." In other words, He is life itself, the source of all life. To me, that's what John 4:24 is saying. It is not saying that God is an immaterial essence that fills the universe and is everywhere at once. There are several indications in the Bible that God does actually have a physical form like that of a human being, but I won't go into them here since that would tend to derail the thread, which was intended by the OP to be a discussion of whether Jesus is God or not.

So everything in the box is a spirit. And God is holy so everything in the box is holy.
In your example, I'd agree that everything in the box is holy but not that everything in the box is spirit. I'm assuming, by the way, that when you say that everything in the box is spirit, you must mean that Jesus is spirit, too. And that, of course, would mean that you don't believe His physical body was resurrected from the dead and made alive again by the indwelling of His spirit, but instead that His spirit also died on the cross and it alone was resurrected. If I've misunderstood what you believe in this regard, please feel free to correct me, as it wasn't my intention to be putting words in your mouth.

So everything in the box is a holy spirit. Two persons, one spirit, one God. God does not need a separate third person spirit because God IS a spirit.
Of course this statement would only hold true if God was solely a spirit and not a spirit giving life to an immortal, corporeal body. If, however, as I believe, the Father and the Son are both beings of flesh and bone that are given eternal life through the existence of their spirit, then there is every reason in the world for there also to be a Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit is known by that title for the express reason that He is unique with respect to the fact that He, unlike the Father and the Son, is spirit alone.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Whether God is "a spirit" or just "spirit" depends upon which transaction of the Bible you're using. In Greek, there are no indefinite articles (a and an), so "God is spirit" is just as accurate a translation as "God is a spirit" is. The thing is, the Bible also tells us that "God is light" and "God is love." Therefore, if He is spirit, light and love, those three things must be some of His attributes rather than an attempt to define Him. But here's what I find interesting: Elsewhere in the Bible, "pneuma" is generally translated, not as meaning "spirit," but as meaning "life." So, it is actually just as accurate to say that "God is life" as it is to say that "God is spirit." In other words, He is life itself, the source of all life. To me, that's what John 4:24 is saying. It is not saying that God is an immaterial essence that fills the universe and is everywhere at once. There are several indications in the Bible that God does actually have a physical form like that of a human being, but I won't go into them here since that would tend to derail the thread, which was intended by the OP to be a discussion of whether Jesus is God or not.

In your example, I'd agree that everything in the box is holy but not that everything in the box is spirit. I'm assuming, by the way, that when you say that everything in the box is spirit, you must mean that Jesus is spirit, too. And that, of course, would mean that you don't believe His physical body was resurrected from the dead and made alive again by the indwelling of His spirit, but instead that His spirit also died on the cross and it alone was resurrected. If I've misunderstood what you believe in this regard, please feel free to correct me, as it wasn't my intention to be putting words in your mouth.

So everything in the box is a holy spirit. Two persons, one spirit, one God. God does not need a separate third person spirit because God IS a spirit.
Of course this statement would only hold true if God was solely a spirit and not a spirit giving life to an immortal, corporeal body. If, however, as I believe, the Father and the Son are both beings of flesh and bone that are given eternal life through the existence of their spirit, then there is every reason in the world for there also to be a Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit is known by that title for the express reason that He is unique with respect to the fact that He, unlike the Father and the Son, is spirit alone.[/QUOTE]
I do not believe the Father ever had a physical body. I do not believe there are any physical bodies in Heaven. I am not sure anyone really knows what happened to Jesus physical body after he rose fron the tomb but I do not believe it ended up in Heaven. If the Father is spirit and the Son is spirit there is no need for a third person spirit. The Father and Son are spirit and are holy.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I do not believe the Father ever had a physical body. I do not believe there are any physical bodies in Heaven. I am not sure anyone really knows what happened to Jesus physical body after he rose fron the tomb but I do not believe it ended up in Heaven.
I'm curious as to why you don't believe His body ended up in heaven. When He was last seen, He was ascending into heaven and He had His body as people were watching Him.

The Father and Son are spirit and are holy.
Are you implying that they are holy because they are spirit and could not be holy if they had bodies?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I'm curious as to why you don't believe His body ended up in heaven. When He was last seen, He was ascending into heaven and He had His body as people were watching Him.

Are you implying that they are holy because they are spirit and could not be holy if they had bodies?
1. Do you really believe there is a 2000 year old physical body sitting on a cloud somewhere?
2. They are holy because only God is holy.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
1. Do you really believe there is a 2000 year old physical body sitting on a cloud somewhere?
A resurrected body is eternally in its perfect state. It is immortal, and therefore no longer subject to aging, disease, injury or anything else. Note: I'd going to be a lot more inclined to want to interact with you in the future if you'd make more of an effort not to resort to sarcasm and ridicule. And please don't deny that that's exactly what you did in your "2000 year old body on a cloud" comment. The fact that we may have a difference of opinion doesn't give you license to be disrespectful.

2. They are holy because only God is holy.
Okay, so their holiness has nothing to do with whether they have a body or not. They are holy simply because they are "God." I can go along with that.
 
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